--- Log opened Fri May 21 00:00:01 2021 00:00 -!- sknebel [~quassel@v22016013254630973.happysrv.de] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 00:17 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-103-108-133.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:35 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:994:7ed0:39c9:ba79:e374:71a5] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:22 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:994:7ed0:39c9:ba79:e374:71a5] has quit [] 03:54 -!- ptrcmd [~ptrcmd@unaffiliated/petercommand] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 04:04 -!- saxo [~saxo@2001:19f0:6800:1102:5400:ff:fe11:39a1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-103-108-133.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:15 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-103-108-133.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:45 < juri_> see you on libera.chat. 04:46 -!- juri_ [~juri@178.63.35.222] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 04:57 < ^ditto> [Libera] * fenn looks around, doesn't see a juri_ 04:59 < ^ditto> [Libera] hi 05:01 < ^ditto> [Libera] i wonder what would happen if george church really did sponsor us 05:02 < ^ditto> [Libera] assuming that nobody is actually sponsored by george church, which i'm not at all sure of 05:04 < ^ditto> [Libera] define us 05:05 < ^ditto> [Libera] * fenn points around vaguely 05:06 < ^ditto> [Libera] i have no idea who half these people are already 05:07 < ^ditto> [Libera] Agatha chiastre FelixWeis helleshin livestradamus otoburb s0ph1a saturn2 sknebel thedragon .... what the hell. say something 05:08 < ^ditto> [Libera] us=ppl doing ... what? 05:08 < ^ditto> [Libera] * darsie is into mind uploading. 05:11 -!- ben__ [~ben@45.93.120.71] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:12 < ^ditto> [Libera] yeah, all that jazz 05:13 < ^ditto> [Libera] i take a more expansive view that since everything is awful and too expensive it makes sense to build your own tools to build the tools for mind uploading, cybernetic enhancements, genetic engineering, etc. 05:13 -!- ben__ [~ben@45.93.120.71] has quit [Client Quit] 05:13 < ^ditto> [Libera] i don't want to bore you all with machining tips tho 05:14 -!- ben__ [~ben@45.93.120.71] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:14 -!- ben__ [~ben@45.93.120.71] has quit [Client Quit] 05:15 < ^ditto> [Libera] most lab equipment can be boiled down to a sheet metal box with a magic crystal, a circuit board, and a piece of steel that has been machined into a particular shape. if you get the really fancy stuff it has a vacuum chamber too 05:19 -!- vee7 [~ben@45.93.120.71] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:20 < ^ditto> [Libera] some others have seemingly gotten forever distracted with bitcoin, but hopefully they will one day return to doing important stuff 05:20 < ^ditto> [Libera] and there is a small AI contingent 05:22 < ^ditto> [Libera] http://diyhpl.us/wiki/goals.yaml.txt my opinion on what's important and why, fwiw 05:26 < ^ditto> [Libera] http://diyhpl.us/wiki/trans-tech.yaml.txt specific technologies 05:39 < ^ditto> [Libera] > everything is awful and too expensive 05:39 < ^ditto> [Libera] why is that? 05:39 < ^ditto> [Libera] people spending other peoples' money 05:40 < ^ditto> [Libera] end users not having any say in the matter 05:50 -!- spaceangel_ [~spaceange@ip-89-102-171-8.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:53 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-103-108-133.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:53 < ^ditto> [Libera] Because we don't have self replicating machines, yet. 05:53 < ^ditto> [Libera] you are 05:54 < ^ditto> [Libera] I don't always do what ppl tell me to do, though. 05:54 < ^ditto> [Libera] and that's why we can't have nice things! 05:57 < ^ditto> [Libera] some people have some nice things 05:57 < ^ditto> [Libera] it's rather pitiful in comparison to what could be though 06:00 * nsh is a self-replicating machine 06:00 < nsh> quite possibly others here too 06:00 < nsh> also, apropos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2SSJmE0TeM 06:00 < nsh> .t 06:00 < nsh> (constructor theory) 06:23 < ^ditto> [Libera] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalik_Buterin#Philanthropy cool huh 06:38 < ^ditto> [Libera] $2B to methuselah foundation? jeez 06:38 < ^ditto> [Libera] is that real? 06:40 < ^ditto> [Libera] yes 06:41 < ^ditto> [Libera] supposedly it was at least partly motivated by a desire to dump holdings of coins he felt deserved to plummet 06:41 < ^ditto> [Libera] i honestly don't know what "500.000.000.000.000 Dogelon coins" even means 06:42 < ^ditto> [Libera] if methuselah foundation starts selling those coins will they instantly become worthless? 06:42 < ^ditto> [Libera] when DOGE began gaining momentum there were people trying to create "DOGE-killer competitors", one was called 'dogelon'. 06:42 < ^ditto> [Libera] fenn: that's the idea 06:43 < ^ditto> [Libera] the charity would have to liquidate those assets to utilize them 06:43 < ^ditto> [Libera] sounds like a tax nightmare 06:43 < ^ditto> [Libera] for the charity i mean 06:44 < ^ditto> [Libera] I'm sure, but I honestly don't know the ins and outs of running a 503c 07:04 < ^ditto> [Libera] https://www.vice.com/en/article/wx5nq9/activist-archivists-are-trying-to-save-the-pirate-bay-of-science 07:55 -!- yonkunas [uid403824@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uvjwbsolokfyrwaq] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 08:08 -!- Jay_Dugger [~jwd@47.185.203.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:22 -!- Jay_Dugger [~jwd@47.185.203.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:41 < ^ditto> [Libera] what limnoria plugin are you using for channel forwarding? 09:47 < ^ditto> [Libera] "i have no idea who half these people are" <- trans/posthumanism is an interest of mine; figured I'd lurk a bit to see what the community mores are first. 09:47 < ^ditto> [Libera] But . . . me, I'm also on the more mind-uploady side, because it sidesteps a lot of the messy, complicated, and perhaps unsolvable problems with progressively more advanced biotech, which is the other obvious route. AFAICT the main outstanding issues are the actual scanning (optimistic because small-scale has already been achieved) and the simulation (optimistic because Moore's Law, generalized to multiple chips, is still very 09:59 < ^ditto> [Libera] well "upload" doesn't necessarily imply "destructive scan and emulation" 10:00 < ^ditto> [Libera] i'd rather do some kind of gradual addition of cognitive prosthetics and transition to new hardware 10:00 < ^ditto> [Libera] otherwise you might as well just say "OK Google, be the best possible me" 10:02 < ^ditto> [Libera] there's a lot more room between squishy wet stuff and silicon than is generally discussed 10:04 < ^ditto> [Libera] starting with engineered neurons and fiber optic transducers, then engineered proteins and intraneural protein nanomachines 10:05 < ^ditto> [Libera] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optogenetics 10:24 < ^ditto> [Libera] Well see, this is the kind of gradual biotech transition I was talking about as being more trouble than it's worth. 10:24 < ^ditto> [Libera] I mean, engineering structures at the scale of human cells is already tricky at best due to the scale involved. Our best precedents are chip fabs, and those don't generalize to biological systems at all. Electrodes or optics have a lot of neuroscientific practical problems, too—things like damaging the neurons themselves, rejection by the immune system, generally being fragile and inaccessible, not being self-supporting, beco 10:24 < ^ditto> [Libera] huge pain to install, etc. 10:24 < ^ditto> [Libera] There's nothing saying we can't solve those issues in principle, but I'm over here like "why tho"? If you destructive scan, you sidestep all those problems in exchange for one major challenge (the scanning itself), which already has been shown to work. Plus you're in a computer now, so you can study how the brain works directly, or start working on intelligence amplification immediately. Granted, you don't have a human body, wh 10:24 < ^ditto> [Libera] of robotics is a big downside. 10:27 < ^ditto> [Libera] ok you go ahead and do that and your computer clone can tell me how to upload the right way :) 10:27 < gradstudentbot> You don't happen to have any more virgin flies, do you? 10:28 < ^ditto> [Libera] i will even press the reboot button if needed 10:28 < ^ditto> [Libera] :P 10:34 < mrdata> my channel tabs are bloating so i will be closing some 10:34 -!- mrdata [~mrdata@unaffiliated/mrdata] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 10:45 -!- strages [sid11297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kvplwujlhmioiiyo] has quit [Quit: Updating details, brb] 10:56 < ^ditto> [Libera] pasky: relaynext 11:27 < ^ditto> [Libera] Agatha: engineering atomically precise nanotech is not going to be like engineering lithography 11:28 < ^ditto> [Libera] maaku_ is now known as maaku 11:28 < ^ditto> [Libera] different processes have different characteristics. it has nothing to do with scale 11:29 < gradstudentbot> Where are the hot plates? 11:43 < ^ditto> [Libera] maaku: Indeed; as I said, it doesn't generalize. Fortunately for the biotech approach to this, atomic-scale fabrication is not necessary. Even micrometer scale would be plenty small. 11:44 < ^ditto> [Libera] well atomic tech is quite doable on a short horizon 11:44 < ^ditto> [Libera] it's a SpaceX-like situation. we have the capability to solve it, if a team could be assembled and funded 11:46 < ^ditto> [Libera] I'm skeptical. The only thing we have that can even touch atoms are electron microscopes. Maybe that could be used to bootstrap a nanofactory to build tools . . . ? 11:47 < ^ditto> [Libera] https://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=11,001,606.PN.&OS=PN/11,001,606&RS=PN/11,001,606 11:48 < ^ditto> [Libera] "Compositions and methods for fractal assembly of micron-scale nucleic acid structures" 11:48 < ^ditto> [Libera] Agatha: I think you mean atomic-force microscopes, not electron microscopes. 11:49 < ^ditto> [Libera] We have now established sets of chemical tools that can be used to build diamondoid systems if only they can be positioned precisely. 11:50 < ^ditto> [Libera] We have the ability to construct large-scale DNA or protein structures which act as building blocks in the 10nm scale. 11:51 < ^ditto> [Libera] There are a variety of engineering techniques that can be used to close the scale gap from 10nm to 0.1nm atomic resolution. 11:51 < ^ditto> [Libera] It would take a couple generations of fabrication processes starting with DNA-scale mechanical assembly, moving down to smaller protein blocks, to directed chemical assembly. 11:52 < ^ditto> [Libera] This could probably be done on the scale of 5-10 years, depending on funding levels. 11:56 < ^ditto> [Libera] gotta catch em all https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2023170118 11:56 < ^ditto> [Libera] pasky: ask redlegion 12:03 < ^ditto> [Libera] maaku: (In order:) can't really understand what the patent is about or if it describes extant technology. I'll also note that micron-scale is not atomic-scale, albeit as previously this is definitely overkill for BCIs. 12:03 < ^ditto> [Libera] Not sure; AFAICT AF microscopes are particular kinds of TEMs, though it seems that atomic-force microscopy is a better term, so thanks. 12:03 < ^ditto> [Libera] I'll agree about the tools—repurposing DNA to different proteins, or even building blocks, isn't hard. Heck, I did it in high school myself! But I feel like you're handwaving the engineering challenges here: moving from 10nm to 0.1nm—well, you can't use light. You can't do it by building different proteins. Quantum effects and heating, which are already issues, become really challenging. Etc. 12:03 < ^ditto> [Libera] Not to say it can't be done, of course! But this is two orders of magnitude down an exponentially hard engineering curve, and I feel like you're dismissing it lightly. It's also worth noting that the ripple-out effects would be fantastic—you can build better computers, for one thing, as an obvious source of current funding, interest, and expertise—so it's not that people haven't been trying to solve these issues. 12:10 < ^ditto> [Libera] What do y'all think of "Engines of Creation: The Coming Era of Nanotechnology"? It's from 1986, so rather dated today, but it sketched out what I still think is the most-plausible path forward for nanotech development: piggybacking on biological nanomachinery to get up and running, and then fabricating progressively smaller and more precise factories. I don't think Drexler properly appreciated the quantum issues with having ind 12:10 < ^ditto> [Libera] of your factory, but I bet it could still work at a slightly larger scale with the addition of self-correction and redundancy, the same way DNA has. 12:55 < ^ditto> [Libera] thedragon_ is now known as thedragon 13:07 < ^ditto> [Libera] s0ph1a_ is now known as s0ph1a 13:07 < ^ditto> [Libera] srk_ is now known as srk 13:24 -!- Jay_Dugger [~jwd@47.185.203.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:16 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-filtmhbrdtwhdrtt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:25 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:e0d9:19b6:fec7:51ec] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:35 < ^ditto> [Libera] Agatha: patent was unrelated to our discussion, sorry. just wanted to share with the channel 14:36 < ^ditto> [Libera] for atomically precise stuff, see this: http://www.molecularassembler.com/Nanofactory/Publications.htm 14:37 < ^ditto> [Libera] there's a patent near the top of that page, for which there has been more recent work that is not on that page 14:37 < ^ditto> [Libera] merkle/freitas have gone underground with a semi-stealth mode startup attempting APM 14:38 < ^ditto> [Libera] for an updated path to mechanosynthesis, see Drexler's more recent Radical Abundance 14:40 < ^ditto> [Libera] I'm not handwaving the challenges of going from DNA scale to protein scale to atomic scale. That's why it would take 5-10 years, not 2-3. But it's doable by combining a couple of different techniques. 14:40 < ^ditto> [Libera] maaku_ is now known as maaku 14:41 -!- Sir_Alexei is now known as [A]lexei 14:41 -!- [A]lexei is now known as Sir_Alexei 14:52 -!- wallet42____ [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gvzybjnynswwkzyn] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:53 -!- felixweis [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ovlrtoqddraoappj] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:53 -!- Solgriffin [sid282649@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rousawhkealnlbge] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56 -!- acertain [sid470584@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ltrkodsrjozibccv] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59 -!- felixweis [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cskmqznmpwgfogab] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:59 -!- acertain [sid470584@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qicsliudlvidfooy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:59 -!- wallet42____ [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fhxvzowbqatobcov] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:00 -!- Solgriffin [sid282649@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sfnobnygontbcrua] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:45 -!- abetusk [~abe@68.175.128.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:47 -!- spaceangel_ [~spaceange@ip-89-102-171-8.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07 -!- Sir_Alexei [uid348072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-filtmhbrdtwhdrtt] has quit [] 18:13 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:e0d9:19b6:fec7:51ec] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:46 < kanzure> /quote cs set ##hplusroadmap entrymsg we have moved to irc.libera.chat -- remember to update your autojoin settings 19:25 -!- nickjohnson [sid789@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gepnrqhydtzkdolo] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 20:28 < ^ditto> [Libera] otoburb_ is now known as otoburb 20:32 < ^ditto> [Libera] we should replace all the frequent nicks on Freenode##hplusroadmap with instances of gradstudentbot 20:32 < gradstudentbot> It's statistically significant. 20:35 < ^ditto> [Libera] great idea 21:16 -!- Codaraxis_ [Codaraxis@gateway/vpn/mullvad/codaraxis] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:20 -!- Codaraxis [~Codaraxis@ip68-5-90-227.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:21 < ^ditto> [Libera] or instances of gpt-3 bots primed with the chat history 22:21 < ^ditto> [Libera] which is probably a good idea anway... 22:22 < ^ditto> [Libera] i don't like it 22:24 < ^ditto> [Libera] please wait until you have my brain scans before you try to emulate me 22:39 < ^ditto> [Libera] the ultimate validation of behaviorism 23:31 -!- vee7 [~ben@45.93.120.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:43 < ^ditto> [Libera] fenn: serious q, are you being facetious or does gpt-3 level of "emulation" bother you? 23:44 < ^ditto> [Libera] i am worried that it would be good enough that someone couldn't tell the difference 23:45 < ^ditto> [Libera] and yet it would somehow get it wrong still 23:45 < ^ditto> [Libera] and then someone has false memories of what "I" did 23:54 < ^ditto> [Libera] fair enough 23:55 < ^ditto> [Libera] a bunch of snarky babbling bobblehead bots is funny though --- Log closed Sat May 22 00:00:02 2021