--- Log opened Thu May 27 00:00:20 2021
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03:04 < fenn> mastodon devs talking about trust graphs (on github for some reason) https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/10096#issuecomment-466768047
03:04 < fenn> it's amazing there isn't anything like this yet
03:05 < fenn> personally i'd like this sort of trust system to have more semantic content than just trust/untrust
03:06 < fenn> like, a person might have good content but post too much, so you don't want to see it all the time, and you can mark them as "too loud"
03:06 < fenn> that way they don't drown out everything else
03:07 < fenn> it wouldn't propagate to everyone they trust in though
03:08 < fenn> you could mark someone as "gullible" and so their posts will still show up fine, but their attestations won't propagate since they have foolishly trusted a bunch of sybil bots
03:09 < fenn> it would be best to have an ontology with a small number of basic types of trust, and refinements of those types that provide more detailed information about the person's reputation
03:10 < fenn> the whole PGP WOT shows how badly misconstrued the word "trust" ends up being, when you're really using it for something else. better to say "attestation" instead
03:11 < fenn> looking for a shorter word that's easier to say
03:11 < fenn> facebook used "like" which also sucks
03:12 < fenn> vouch? claim?
03:14 < fenn> er, i mean 'facebook used "friend" which also sucks'
03:16 < fenn> tim may prefers positive reputation metrics because it's easy to discard identities loaded up with a negative reputation
03:17 < fenn> but as a user it's easier to identify when a person has violated trust and deserves a negative reputation
03:17 < fenn> so i think there should be both
03:25 < jrayhawk> negative reputation systems interact poorly with regulatory bodies
03:25 < jrayhawk> so at the very least, such a thing should be independent of the positive reputation system
03:35 < fenn> not sure what you mean. if a regulatory body violates trust, it should be marked as such
03:37 < fenn> a government merely arrogating power to itself doesn't make it legitimate
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05:11 < L29Ah> https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/106/303/396/068/390/098/original/ba68123b42c25cf7.png
05:20 < fenn> was everything this awful ten years ago and i somehow didn't notice?
05:20 < fenn> has it become more normal and acceptable to be generally awful?
05:31 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/rbranson/status/1397598281975230464
05:31 < ^ditto> kanzure: Error: "tw" is not a valid command.
05:31 < kanzure> saxo!
05:31 < kanzure> .to xeb ihas saxo?
05:31 < ^ditto> kanzure: Error: "to" is not a valid command.
05:31 < kanzure> oh come on
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05:33 < kanzure> .botsnack
05:33 < ^ditto> kanzure: Error: "botsnack" is not a valid command.
05:34 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/rbranson/status/1397598281975230464
05:34 < ^ditto> kanzure: Error: "tw" is not a valid command.
05:34 < saxo> Chia has grown almost 1 exabyte (974PiB) in the last 24 hours. The scale of this is hard to comprehend. // Creating plots at this rate burns up the equivalent of one 1TB Samsung Evo SSD every 3 seconds. // An exabyte is 125,000 8TB drives or $25,000,000 in Seagate USB drives. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2U2OhYVoAMz3nH.png (@rbranson)
05:34 < kanzure> redlegion: control yer bot
05:37 < redlegion> config supybot.reply.whenAddressedBy.chars +
05:37 < redlegion> .config supybot.reply.whenAddressedBy.chars .
05:37 < ^ditto> redlegion: The operation succeeded.
05:37 < redlegion> .config supybot.reply.whenAddressedBy.chars +
05:37 < ^ditto> redlegion: The operation succeeded.
05:37 < ^ditto> [freenode] <redlegion> .config supybot.reply.whenAddressedBy.chars +
05:38 < redlegion> +flush
05:38 < ^ditto> redlegion: The operation succeeded.
05:40 < jrayhawk> i wonder if anyone's mentioned to "the best network protocol engineer alive" that chia is a devastating human goitrogen
05:41 < jrayhawk> how do they keep proof of time from centralizing?
05:46 < jrayhawk> proof of space seems less green than proof of work to me insofar as monetary expenditure on power *can* be largely non-polluting and beneficial (low depreciation rates on power infrastructure makes it repurposable), but monetary expenditure on addressible mass storage does not have these properties
05:46 < jrayhawk> still, nice to see new experiments
05:47 < fenn> who is driving all this demand for storage on chia?
05:47 < jrayhawk> i guess it'll be an okay subsidy for underutilized cloud storage platforms
05:48 < jrayhawk> it's a proof-of-space PoW-style system.
05:48 < jrayhawk> similar to how ethereum is a proof-of-memory-bandwidth system
05:48 < fenn> oh, gross
05:48 < fenn> is there some kind of reliability incentive?
05:49 < jrayhawk> i am not sure i understand
05:49 < fenn> i can't help but think that this is going to result in a lot of useful data getting deleted
05:50 < fenn> jrayhawk: i mean if chia is not designed right it could result in hard drive manufacturers optimizing for cost instead of reliability
05:50 < jrayhawk> ah. i would guess it means we get lower-level access to reliability/cost tradeoffs.
05:50 < jrayhawk> which strikes me as a good thing.
05:51 < jrayhawk> FTLs are very wasteful.
05:51 < fenn> what's a FTL?
05:51 < jrayhawk> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_translation_layer
05:52 < fenn> does chia require fast random access? or will a spinning disk suffice?
05:53 < jrayhawk> sounds like spinning disks are fine
05:53 < jrayhawk> but those also have error-correction inefficiencies
05:53 < jrayhawk> it's not quite as severe as flash, which is trying to cover up basic semantic differences in the tristate system and its failure modes.
05:54 < fenn> $25M doesn't sound like a lot of hard drives really
05:57 < fenn> ok prices have gone up ~15% on ebay for used 4TB drives
06:02 < fenn> i had thought chia was a pay-for-storage system like siacoin or filecoin
06:04 < jrayhawk> Does Darwin have a flash filesystem?
06:22 < fenn> "proof of space" means all data on the internet will be deleted by malware
06:22 < jrayhawk> haha
06:22 < fenn> it's not funny :(
06:23 < jrayhawk> you say that like ransomware isn't already a thing
06:26 < fenn> ransomware requires that victims buy into it in order to be worth pursuing. if deleting all the users' data turns out to be more lucrative because there's a guaranteed return, that's what malware writers will do instead
06:28 < jrayhawk> whatever; viral load keeps us robust to other stressors
06:28 < fenn> there must be some kind of time integral of storage for chia to work, so the malware will make deletion difficult to detect
06:28 < jrayhawk> people need ot learn how to make backups
06:28 < fenn> don't "whatever" me
06:28 < fenn> a huge financial incentive to corrupt all data is a big problem!
06:29 < jrayhawk> if you think that's the worst that can happen from rampant infrastructure vulnerability, you aren't thinking big enough
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06:52 < L29Ah> just don't buy chia and you won't produce the incentive
06:55 < fenn> with bitcoin there wasn't a whole lot of investment capital available right away, so it took many years before ASIC mining took off
06:55 < fenn> what's the analogous thing to an ASIC for storage space?
06:56 < fenn> proof-of-space i mean
07:00 < L29Ah> DRAM
07:17 < kanzure> https://igem.tv/ (autoplay warning)
07:17 < L29Ah> We're sorry but igem-tv doesn't work properly without JavaScript enabled. Please enable it to continue.
07:18 < kanzure> jrayhawk: it's based on verifiable delay functions
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13:30 < nmz787> .wik dsa
13:30 < saxo> "[Disambiguation] DeKalb School of the Arts, a grades 8–12 public school in DeKalb County, Georgia, US Denver School of the Arts, a grades 6–12 public school in Denver, Colorado, US Detroit School of Arts, Michigan, US" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dsa
13:30 < nmz787> .wik directed self assembly
13:30 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_self_assembly gave 404 | Searched en for 'directed self assembly' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
13:30 < nmz787> learning about how to model DSA in nanofab processing using LAM research Coventor SEMulator
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15:29 < kanzure> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2278696-bitcoin-rival-chia-destroyed-hard-disc-supply-chains-says-its-boss/
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16:19 < fenn> https://libera.chat/guides/connect#accessing-liberachat-via-tor and https://web.libera.chat/ are now up, and matrix is almost there
--- Log closed Thu May 27 16:27:35 2021
--- Log opened Thu May 27 16:27:35 2021
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17:13 < kanzure> has the whole world gone crazy https://twitter.com/antonioregalado/status/1397977227468455943
17:29 < nsh> .t
17:29 < saxo> UC Berkeley is auctioning NFT's of famous "invention disclosure forms" (that's when a prof tells the university about a patentable idea, sealing the invention date). // First to auction is Jim Allison's idea for immunotherapy blockade // Later they'll do Jennifer Doudna's CRISPR. 1/ https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2abGAIWYAQ-xTy.png (@antonioregalado)
17:29 < nsh> if someone's buying... 
18:56 < lsneff> of course it has
18:57 < lsneff> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27288413
18:57 < lsneff> .t
18:57 < saxo> Near the end of *Cibola Burn*, there was this part that gave some extra details ... | Hacker News
18:58 < lsneff> comparison of smartphones to hand terminals from the expanse
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19:20 < superkuh> https://www.hudsandguis.com/home/2021/theexpanse "Q&A with Rhys Yorke Motion graphics designer - The Expanse (Season 3 & 5)"
19:20 < superkuh> Er, sorry. Good link.
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--- Log closed Fri May 28 00:00:21 2021