--- Log opened Fri Jun 25 00:00:48 2021
00:47 -!- cpopell [~cpopell@c-24-22-170-81.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:15 < trn> Hi, not sure how on-topic nootropics are, but I have a funny "overdose" story if anyone cares.
03:26  * fenn slides a glass of orange juice across the bar
03:26 < fenn> who doesn't love a good overdose story
03:28 < trn> I regularly take a stack and don't cycle off near as often as I should. I take in the AM a multivitamin, B complex, Vitamin C, phenylpiracetam, noopept, emoxypine, and caffiene and armodafinil. 
03:29 < fenn> double fisting it with caffeine _and_ modafinil
03:29 < fenn> you mad lad
03:29 < trn> The phenylp is ridiculous amazing but tolerance seems to build quick even if it never becomes completely ineffective for me, so I cycle through semax and aniracetam.
03:29 < trn> Well, for someone who enjoys heavier stimulants, it's fine. 
03:30 < trn> And unlike those, it's productive.
03:30 < fenn> alright, go on
03:31 < trn> Sorry, oxiracetam, not aniracetam.
03:31 < trn> So, I usually take 30mg noopept after a month or more on.
03:31 < trn> I make 10mg caps.
03:31 < trn> I decided to change to 30mg caps.
03:33 < trn> Of course I confused them, and thought I had 4 10mg's remaining. So I took my regular and 120mg of noopept.
03:33 < trn> Noticed within about an hour I did something wrong.
03:35 < trn> Felt odd, slight metallic taste, a bit drowsy or lethargic, some auditory hallucinations, and absolutely zero short term memory whatsoever for about an hour.
03:35 < trn> Oh, forgot to mention, also take alpha GPC, for anyone later reading the logs.
03:36 < fenn> naturally
03:37 < trn> I've found that higher doses of racetams cause slight tinnitus and a particular auditory hallucination. Maybe that isn't the term to use.
03:39 < trn> I know noopept technically is not a racetam but it has the same effects.  It's a bit like background chatter or voices, none of them distinct, having no noticeable perceived directional source. Sounds like a party with conversation in another room.
03:40 < fenn> your report has been assimilated. your biological and technological distinctiveness has been added to our own.
03:40 < trn> Listening to music or turning on a fan or something to add a bit of background noise makes it a non-issue.
03:42 < trn> But the short term memory loss from very high dose noopept was like an alcohol or benzo blackout but only for short term recall.  I lost my phone about 15 times in that hour and couldn't remember what I was doing or why on the computer. It was pretty unpleasant. 
03:43 < fenn> maybe you bonked on choline
03:44 < trn> Tinnitus is highly annoying. Racetams make it go away but in higher stimulating amounts actually cause it.  Sometimes I cut back just due to it.  
03:45 < fenn> do you actually feel that racetams are stimulating?
03:46 < trn> I don't feel anything on noopept at all and it's hard to quantify what it does subjectively, but it absolutely changes your cognition.
03:46 < trn> On the other hand, phenylpiracetam and oxiracetam I absolutely feel.
03:47 < trn> phenylpiracetam is actually pretty crazy.
03:47 < fenn> for me the main benefit of piracetam is reducing the cognitive noise and jitter of caffeine while retaining the low impedance threshold to action that caffeine offers
03:47 < cpopell> hi fenn
03:47 < fenn> noopept does the same thing i guess? i don't really remember
03:47 < fenn> hello
03:48 < fenn> also it's easy to pull just the word i intend out of the ether
03:48 < trn> The combination of the racetamss with armodafinil and caffeine give me a really intense amphetamine-ish focus.
03:49 < trn> But without the racing thoughts and side effects and physical effects that aren't productive.
03:51 < trn> phenylpiracetam is probably the craziest thing I've ever taken. 
03:51 < fenn> do you think it's simply more potent per mg?
03:52 < trn> No, it's distinct to me among all the racetams I've taken.
03:53 < fenn> "It was developed in 1983 as a medication for Soviet Cosmonauts to treat the prolonged stresses of working in space." interesting
03:53 < trn> It also has distinct negative side effects when I take more than 250mg at a time or more than 2g a day.
03:54 < trn> Other than increasing dosages required it never seems to completely lose it's effects but it gets limited by negative side effects.
03:56 < trn> I've read they've given people up to 20 grams a day and nothing objectively bad happened to them. 
03:56 < fenn> how does one acquire phenylpiracetam?
03:56 < fenn> is this a common thing? i never particularly investigated all the *racetams
03:57 < trn> But it gives me anxiety and very bad stomach issues and weird headspace and very negative feelings at those dosages.
03:57 < trn> Am I allowed to mention a vendor here?
03:57 < fenn> sure
03:58 < fenn> i am also interested in the process of selecting a vendor
03:58 < trn> OK. I get my phenylp from Nootropics Depot
03:58 < fenn> ah well that's simple enough
03:59 < trn> and sometimes get other things from science.bio
04:00 < trn> I can vouch highly for Cosmic and RUPharma when it comes to getting prescription drugs from Russia or the Ukraine, but obviously you are on your own.
04:01 < trn> They also will gladly sell you scheduled things so there is a customs risk depending on where you live.
04:03 < trn> I imagine you are pretty safe if you only order nootropics
04:04 < trn> phenylpiracetam was Carphedron, then Nanotropil
04:04 < trn> Now it's Nanotropil Novo
04:05 < trn> The owner of Nootropics Depot answers emails, has an actual lab in Arizona and has a GC/MS on site
04:06 < trn> They do synth some things but for anything they outsource they test every batch, and they seem very legitimate.
04:06 < fenn> well i would hope they test the stuff they make too
04:08 < trn> Yes, I should say, they test everything and do it on site. The IRCBIO/Science.Bio/whatever they are called today are always getting in trouble for selling investigational drugs and bodybuilding stuff and change websites and corporate shells like normal people change TV channels.
04:09 < trn> Nootropics Depot seems really on the up and up and least shady of all these places.
04:10 < trn> Those russian pharmacies will sell you literally anything.
04:11 < trn> (except opiates, it seems. but they'll gladly mislabel and mail you propofol or benzos or chloral hydrate or whatever)
04:12 < trn> In fact if you ordered a military tank, they'd happily disassemble it and send it you piece by piece in the mail.
04:15 < trn> fenn: It might be just me, but, in five years of shady purchases including things from DNM's I've had exactly two seizures by CBP. One was 800mg ibuprofen from a Canadian darknet vendor.
04:15 < trn> It disappeared in NYC customs. 
04:17 < fenn> gotta stop kids gettin high on ibuprofen
04:17 < trn> The other was amoxicillin sent from New Zealand or something.
04:18 < trn> I actually got the full formal love letter on the anoxicillin, saying they were going to store it and charge me $100 a day in fees but I could present myself to Border Patrol at a US Customs office to discuss the matter, etc.
04:19 < fenn> and so of course you said "you must be mistaken, please dispose of that contraband which certainly belongs to someone else"
04:20 < trn> just ignored it and never heard about it again
04:21 < trn> I even had the vendor reship and got it. I figured if they actually were going to arrest me for federal drug charges or importation law violations that I'd serve no jail time if convicted and I was pretty broke so they can't take much from me.
04:23 < trn> I might be dismissive about it, but I've never heard if anyone in prison for buying antibiotics.
04:23 < fenn> the rest of the world looks on in horror
04:24 < fenn> of course they can't buy antibiotics either
04:24 < fenn> but at least it's not necessary
04:24 < cannedprimates> randomly jumping in: i once got criminally charged for ordering ... dhea (in europe)
04:24 < cannedprimates> got a friendly md to write me a prescription post hoc
04:24 < trn> Oh, that's considered a steroid thats controlled in most of Europe though.
04:25 < cannedprimates> really depends on the country though, in sweden eg ive ordered a bunch from nootropics depot and nobody ever cared 
04:25 < cannedprimates> well yes but not until fairly recently actually
04:25 < cannedprimates> like maybe 7 years?
04:26 < trn> I'm from a family of attorneys and military veterans.
04:27 < cannedprimates> i can see how lawyers may help hehe
04:27 < cannedprimates> manually importing to eu in carry on from us has worked fine for me so far
04:27 < cannedprimates> noopept in particular
04:28 < trn> So I've had it beat into me that if you get arrested you might not be charged, if you get charged you might not be prosecuted, if you get prosecuted you might not be convicted, if you are convicted you might not be sentenced, and if sentenced you might not even serve any of the sentence. And if you serve any of it, it's super unlikely you'll serve the whole thing.
04:28 < cannedprimates> hahaha love it
04:29 < trn> So from the beginning to end of that process, the chances to get to the end are so rare you shouldn't care.
04:29 < cannedprimates> not sure if the euro justice system actually has teeth, where i grew up people are just unquestioningly obedient
04:29 < cannedprimates> my base case would be that the majority of things eu agencies are way too underresourced to do anything about so they focus on chokepoints like customs
04:29 < trn> Of course this applies to things like ordering from russian pharmacies rather than "real" offences
04:30 < cannedprimates> anyways interesting noopept story, i sometimes have minimal visual distortions with just a single 30mg does
04:30 < trn> Peripheral noise?
04:31 < cannedprimates> nope never audio
04:31 < trn> like trailing floaters in the vision?
04:31 < cannedprimates> just like things look shiney in peripheral vision
04:31 < cannedprimates> yes
04:31 < trn> Yeah, me too.
04:31 < cannedprimates> id also agree with your assessment that its really hard to say what it actually does
04:31 < cannedprimates> just feels smoother somehow
04:32 < cannedprimates> and anecdotally when programming you usually have this where your subconcious can think N steps ahead and if the problem requires more steps you have to do some on paper, and with noopept i can do one or two steps more in my head
04:33 < cannedprimates> gf claims that it just works like modafinil ie  strong stimulant for her
04:33 < trn> I take it as a programmer as well.
04:33 < cannedprimates> no shes a cognitive scientist
04:33 < cannedprimates> so mostly human language writing ?
04:35 < trn> I'm a programmer as well and that's why I started taking the racetams.
04:35 < fenn> there goes my pun
04:36 < fenn> i take it you take it, as a programmer of course
04:37 < fenn> as well!
04:37 < fenn> doctor, doctor, doctor. /me nods
04:37 < trn> I don't really mind if this gets logged or doxxed, however... when taking LSD I am acutely aware of the mental process of language construction in my mind, so I think.
04:38 < trn> To the point where I tried to talk to a neurolinguistic researxher about it and someone else had said the same thing.
04:39 < trn> Of course, it's nearly impossible to quantify such a thing. I tried once and the video was the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen.
04:41 < trn> I originally went to school for degree in English 
04:42 < trn> I changed to compsci when I realized I would eventually need a 'real' job
04:43 < trn> I've got a buddy with two PhD's in "useless" things and he works in the school's admissions office and plays poker for a living.
04:44 < fenn> and probably gets paid more playing poker
04:45 < trn> He was on TV on that world series of poker thing
04:45 < fenn> well you don't have to be the best ever, just better than most
04:46 < fenn> a computer could do it
04:47 < trn> He just kept going to school to get his loans deferred really
04:48 < fenn> well now he has a free immigration ticket to anywhere in the world, should that become necessary
04:48 < trn> I think he's got a doctorate in philosophy and another in art education
04:48 < fenn> what do you call a PhD in philosophy?
04:48 < fenn> a PhD.
04:49 < trn> He was working at a kiosk in the mall embroidering hats before COVID
04:49 < fenn> wow. can't relate
04:49 < trn> professional philosophers aren't exactly in high demand and he doesn't want to be a professor
04:50 < trn> He loved that job and chatting with random people
04:50 < fenn> like, manually stitching threads with a needle, or running a CNC machine?
04:50 < trn> He's sort of a stoner tie-dyed shirt kind of guy.
04:51 < trn> He had some computer that ran the sewing machine thing and he'd make the designs
04:52 < trn> or usually just plug in a font and type "O-G Biggz" or "'Lil Ninja" into it and press the button :)
04:56 < trn> He really thought any computer job where you sit in a chair for 18 hours a day would be the worst.
04:56 < streety>  were you aware you had no short term memory at the time, or did you only realize afterwards?
04:57 < streety> 18 hours a day would be bad
04:57 < trn> streety: Acutely and frustratingly aware
05:01 < streety> right, so what did you do during that time? Just sit it out?
05:02 < streety> how are you guarding against something similar happening in future? Any advice for you younger (pre-30mg formulating) self?
05:03 < trn> I just goofed off and played on the internet and didn't work for about about two hours or so.
05:04 < trn> It wasn't "bad" or dangerous I don't think but highly unpleasant and a reminder these things are actually 'drugs'
05:05 < trn> Advise? Label stuff if you have some capsules that are triple the dosage of other capsules.
05:06 < trn> I'm not a fan of marijuana (used to be back after high school - which was forever ago) and I haven't smoked or vaped any in about 2 years and maybe 5 years before that.
05:07 < trn> (Those vapes are no joke!)
05:07 < trn> But it was that kind of memory loss but worse.
05:08 < trn> In fact, now that cannabis is decriminalized or legalized almost everywhere I barely hear anything about it at all now.
05:11 < L29Ah> i'm surprised people smoke cannabis at all due to the memory loss involved
05:15 < trn> It pleasant in it's own way and fun, I guess.
05:16 < streety> labels are difficult - easy to think you don't need one, easy to go overboard, easy to miss irrelevant details that turn out not to be irrelevant 
05:17 < trn> I'm not pro or con really on cannabis (or even other drugs) but if I'm on drugs (or drinking), not much productive gets done.
05:18 < trn> LSD puts me out of commission for most of the next day even - I don't often have the luxury of having 48 uninterrupted hours of free time.
05:21 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@user/urchin] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
05:21 < trn> My mother would call me or someone would come over or there would be some emergency or similar and if I was high, stoned, tripping, whatever, that wouldn't reflect highly on me. 
05:24 < trn> my mother graduated with a masters from UCB in 67 or 68 so I would absolutely be busted
05:32 < trn> L29Ah I'm mildly amused how cannabis was going to either leas to the metaphorical and then literal disintegration of the country ... or a revolution in well being and health and bankrupt evil big pharma
05:33 < trn> But, reality, nothing happened.
05:34 < trn> I'm glad tax dollars and law enforcement hours aren't spent incarcerating pot smokers at least.
05:36 < trn> I have a friend who is an officer and he was not in favor of legalization but was very pleased with decriminalization here. Especially after they mandated the body cameras.
05:37 < trn> There was a feeling that if you came across marijuana in a traffic stop or a kid smoking at a concert and later there was an incident or accident and you didn't act that the county would be exposed to lawsuits and he'd lose his job for ignoring the law.
05:40 -!- cpopell [~cpopell@c-24-22-170-81.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Connection closed]
05:41 < trn> In fact he was very much against police cruiser and body camera mandates because he'd not be able to give most people a break or a warning for a lot of things and would lose a lot of discretion and the net effect of that would be WAY higher than, comparatively, the number of abuse cases.
05:42 < streety> I thought it was well established that police were not required to stop crime
05:43 < trn> He mentioned the arrest rate went up about 30% after the cameras because nobody felt comfortable letting anything slide but the number of convictions was unchanged.
05:43 < trn> More people going to jail, released, no charges pursued.
05:43 < trn> And higher risk of confrontations.
05:43 < streety> interesting
05:46 < trn> There is no legal obligation for the police to protect you per the Supreme Court case about a death due to late/no 911 response I think it was.
05:47 < trn> But officers can and have faced civil suits and dismissal for cause for failing to act and uphold the oath of service.
05:48 < streety> there may be multiple cases but I think the most commonly referenced was 3 women being held hostage who phoned police twice and then were beaten and raped
05:51 < trn> I'm in Broward, FL - the canonical recent case is the Parkland school shooting where the officer who did not enter was criminally charged with negligence, that was dropped and he was rehired, and a civil suit was allowed and lost.
05:52 < trn> However, the Sheriff (who I didn't like) was relieved of duty for cause by the governor
05:52 < streety> oh yeah, that was a really bad example
05:53 < trn> So while "not doing your job" might not be illegal, it can certainly get you fired.
05:54 < trn> And if you get fired, you'll be on your own mounting a defence to the lawsuits.
05:58 < streety> it will be interesting to see what effect the rolling back of qualified immunity will have. what will the unintended consequences be
05:58 < trn> So as a cop he was extremely vocal about criminalizing more and more things, essentially every interaction with the police is a chance for someone to get killed, and an officer would much rather go to prison for life than be shot and killed on the job without question, so deescalation training and all that was absolutely academic and sort of a joke.
05:58 < trn> If it's not worth possibly killing someone over it, then it shouldn't be illegal. 
05:59 < L29Ah> trn: psychedelics decriminalization when?
05:59 < trn> Or at least not an arrestable offence
05:59 < trn> Probably never.
05:59 < L29Ah> i recall some cities and states declaring that they won't arrest for shrooms, but that's it
06:00 < trn> Sadly.
06:01 < trn> But being very good friends with an officer, the truth is they loathe enforcing all these laws. And now they feel they have with cameras and all this extra oversight.
06:02 < trn> And they absolutely deal with hell on a regular basis and no amount of rules are going to make an officer not act quickly with deadly force even if they'll go to prison forever, because death is the alternative. That's simple game theory.
06:03 < trn> We did talk about dropping qualified immunity and he believes that it's an inherently racist thing to do.
06:04 < streety> any detail on why?
06:05 < trn> It will lead to depolicing and delayed response because officers will want to avoid confrontations and possible escalations, and because of the rift between minority communities and police, the minority communities will bear the brunt of the effects.
06:06 < trn> I should mention he's black.
06:07 < trn> He believes that the whole defunding the police movement is to leave minority communities who are the victims of most crime out in the cold and simultaneously give justification to racists to stereotype minority communities as dangerous and people of color as criminals.
06:08 < trn> And white politicians will use that money elsewhere where people who are disadvantaged will see little to no benefit.
06:09 < trn> Of course he's in law enforcement so he doesn't see police brutality as a valid issue and even says it's laughable in perspective, uses the analogy of food safety saying that no matter what we do every now and then someone dies of botulism. 
06:10 < trn> It's a huge deal simply because it happens so rarely.
06:11 < streety> unintended consequences. I wonder if there are any past examples that could be informative. Did the rollout of bulletproof vests increase police engagement and make communities safer? Surges in particular communities?
06:11 < trn> But that effect of policing in minority communities is a positive and defunding the police would be absolutely a disaster.
06:12 < trn> I don't really know and we argue about this stuff often and a cursory internet search finds both examples and counter examples.
06:13 < trn> He says for example the surge in crime should have been both expected and he's shocked how low it actually is.
06:14 < streety> I'm not in the US, are there already examples of police forces being reduced? I think I assumed a lot of it would be just talk with perhaps a hiring freeze
06:15 < trn> Lockdown people for a year and then urge social distancing, and drill into police and first responders how vulnerable and in danger they are, then let everyone finally get out with a now reluctant law enforcement community and you should expect a surge in crime.
06:16 < trn> More psychological than anything is the assumption
06:18 -!- Codaraxis_ [~Codaraxis@193.32.126.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:18 -!- Codaraxis_ [~Codaraxis@193.32.126.157] has joined #hplusroadmap
06:19 < trn> There is data that says that black police officers shoot and kill blacks at a much higher rate than non-blacks and even some data that suggests there is actually a gap in the use of force by white officers.
06:19 < trn> A big study found an officer was much more likely to shoot and kill someone unarmed from their own race than others.
06:19 < trn> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/study-claims-white-police-no-more-likely-shoot-minorities-draws-fire
06:20 < trn> The conclusions are controversial but the data is correct.
06:21 < trn> My friend says it's simply because black police are more likely to interact with black people, white police with white people, etc. So it's simply because of the greater number of interactions.
06:22 < trn> There is some evidence to suggest that police hesitate to use force against other races because they fear being perceived as biased.
06:22 < streety> did the study not control for number of interactions?
06:23 < trn> I don't think there is any hard data on something like that.
06:23 < trn> I also don't think if you survey people on touchy social or societal issues you'll get an honest answer.
06:24 < streety> sorry, the interactions issue was one of the first points the article you linked to. I was having an issue viewing it
06:25 < trn> It looks like it controls for encounters ending in force being used
06:25 < trn> But the more relevant question is "A cruiser drives through an area and the officer sees something mildly suspicious."
06:26 < trn> Would a white officer be more likely to go check it out because of some racism and be "out to find problems".
06:27 < trn> Or conversely, would the racist officer stay in the car and "not be bothered to care what happens to black people"?
06:27 < trn> Where you can substitute whatever race you want in those questions.
06:28 < trn> If you believe that bias can be unconscious then it's even harder to know.
06:32 < streety> definitely complicated, just to circle back to an earlier point the study is based on 900 fatal shootings in 2015. There are apparently 145 cases of botulism each year in the US with just 15% being foodborne. So about a 41-fold more serious.
06:32 < streety> the case fatality is also only 4%
06:35 < trn> Also people are biologically wired for tribalism says many academics too
06:36 < trn> https://www.nature.com/articles/428275a etc
06:37 < trn> I think that's the point though
06:38 < trn> In a society with a widespread police corruption problem, police corruption is not news.
06:39 < trn> The #1 cause of death in America for the majority of the population is cars. (ages 1-54, 39,000 annual deaths and about 5M injuries).
06:41 < trn> For airline transport it's 14 people on average. Even including terrorism and whatever else.
06:41 < L29Ah> https://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe?_service=v8prod&_server=aspv-wisq-1.cdc.gov&_port=5099&_sessionid=sDpimMjjQ52&_program=wisqars.dd_leadcaus10.sas&log=1&rept=&State=00&year1=2019&year2=2019&Race=0&Ethnicty=0&Sex=0&ranking=10&PRTFMT=FRIENDLY&lcdfmt=lcd1age&category=ALL&c_age1=0&c_age2=0&_debug=0 damn cdc is ded
06:42 < L29Ah> anyway circulatory problems are much more deadly than cars
06:42 < L29Ah> in USA, that is; not sure about America
06:43 < trn> The fact that air travel is safer than walking in your own home is exactly why you get multiple days of coverage and concern in the media about every air accident.
06:44 < trn> The rarer police brutality and abuse of power becomes the more coverage it will receive in the media.
06:46 < trn> Actually looking at https://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe
06:47 < trn> https://i.imgur.com/CMObfKA.png 
06:47 < trn> https://i.imgur.com/vzKzX5t.png 
06:48 < L29Ah> > age group cherry-picking
06:48 < trn> filter out poison ingestion (that includes drugs) and the chart is a bit more visible 
06:49 < trn> apparently the 1-54 age group is an intentional selection by the CDC
06:50 < trn> because of higher incidence of health issues causing increases in auto accident rates
06:50  * fenn notes that suicide and homicide are pretty high on the list
06:53 < L29Ah> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/10_leading_causes_of_death_by_age_group_2015-USA.pdf/page1-1280px-10_leading_causes_of_death_by_age_group_2015-USA.pdf.jpg
06:54 < L29Ah> my link used to provide newer info as such a table but no longer works :(
06:55 < trn> I’m extremely wary of anything that makes a determination of causation 
06:56 < trn> Even more so when it comes to determining the causation for human behaviors 
06:57 < trn> but from a friend who’s a police officer he says there are absolutely racist police, but they aren’t out killing minorities or making arrests
06:58 < trn> the most dangerous and most racist police simply ignore blacks and minorities completely 
07:00 < trn> in a position where your first priority is public safety willful blindness and inaction is something you can get away with for a very long period of time as well.
07:04 < fenn> dear non native english speakers: when someone says "America" or it always means "United States" and when someone says "the Americas" it means something else
07:04 < fenn> -or
07:06 < trn> do the rest of the americas even count?
07:06  * trn hides
07:06 < fenn> no, never, they don't exist
07:06 < fenn> glad to clear that up
07:07  * fenn tired of having to overcorrect for uncontroversial statements
07:07 < trn> :)
07:08 < trn> the problem with using “the Americas” literally is that giant empty frozen wasteland called “Canada” that breaks all the statistics
07:08 < streety> coming from the UK, "the Americas" is not a phrase I have used. I've never had to loop everything in together. It would always be north/central/south. 
07:09 < streety> loop = lump
07:09 < fenn> yes it really makes no sense to use it. maybe it did in 1700 but not anymore
07:09 < fenn> to my ear it sounds like "the west indies"
07:10 < trn> It’s rarely useful outside of a geographical discussion yes
07:10 < trn> “Latin America” is even worse though
07:11 < streety> how do you feel about New World vs Old World
07:11 < trn> hah.
07:12 < fenn> i prefer "Mars" and "Earth"
07:15 < trn> The problem with “Latin America” is that it is a political classification so Brazil counts but Guyana doesn’t
07:15 < kanzure> doctor, doctor, doctor. how many doctors are there on this planet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPxtB9ydKI&t=24s
07:15 < trn> And neither does Puerto Rico
07:15 < trn> fenn: but women are from Venus
07:29 < trn> kanzure: https://youtu.be/2Mv1s4Xj7bk
07:29 < trn> :)
07:29 < fenn> .title
07:29 < saxo> Spaceballs - 'I knew it, I'm surrounded by assholes!' - YouTube
07:32 < fenn> if you didn't get the reference:
07:32 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/hoe24aSvLtw?t=10
07:32 < saxo> Spies Like Us (1985) - Doctor, Doctor Scene (4/8) | Movieclips - YouTube
07:36 < trn> https://youtu.be/K3CWXqUqPFA
07:36 < fenn> .title
07:36 < saxo> No Doctor I'm the Doctor! | Doctor Who | Robot | BBC - YouTube
07:46 < maaku> fenn: when people get touchy about "America" meaning only the USA, I point out it's the only nation with "America" in its name
07:49 < L29Ah> implying it was obvious that it was referred to as a nation and not a geographical entity
07:57 < fenn> i'm sure these people have no problem understanding "'murica"
08:00 < fenn> "implying it was obvious that it referred to the nation, and not the genus of sea snails"
08:41 < redlegion> or the species of hookworm?
08:51 < fenn> the indonesian peppercorn
08:55 < fenn> "China's crewed launches to Mars are planned for 2033, 2035, 2037, 2041 and beyond"
08:55 < superkuh> Space race!
08:55 < superkuh> Let's do it.
10:04 < jrayhawk> didn't i just read that overdose story on reddit the other week
10:13 < kanzure> no because you do not read reddit
10:21 < jrayhawk> oh, you're right, it was hackernews
10:22 < jrayhawk> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27298529
10:22 < jrayhawk> this is the one that produced the excellent "self-blinded study" pun
10:47 < fenn> "learned how to make supplements but they were not working well enough so I knew I needed something stronger" Stop. put the pill making machine down. take a deep breath, consider how you got here, then go do something else
10:49 < L29Ah> omg
10:49 < L29Ah> there're certainly better ways to self-blind
10:50 < fenn> isopropanol?
10:51  * L29Ah failed to blind himself with isopropanol
10:51 < streety> that's like a horrific version of Applied Science's cookie making machine
10:52 < L29Ah> i prefer Simone Giertz's // https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2evC2xTNWg
10:52 < fenn> .title
10:52 < saxo> The Breakfast Machine - YouTube
10:55 < fenn> does she ever do anything that _doesn't_ suck?
10:55 < streety> definitely funnier - seems like it would really benefit from the ball joint or omni-knuckle that was mentioned here recently
10:56 < streety> omni-wrist
10:56 < L29Ah> the robot hand definitly doesn't suck; not sure tho if she made it
10:56 < L29Ah> streety: omni-wrist sucks
10:56 < fenn> i don't find shitposting funny
10:57 < fenn> it's just a big "Fuck You" to people who are actually trying
10:57 < fenn> if you have ALS you would kill for a real working breakfast machine
10:58 < L29Ah> it is very limited in the trajectories it can follow, too weak and too complex, say compared to 2dof gimbal
10:58 < maaku> fenn: i block shit posters. makes twitter much better
10:58 < streety> I only saw it from the mention here, something simpler could definitely work for the breakfast machine
10:58 < maaku> fenn: i sincerely doubt the chinese will make those launch dates for crewed missions
10:58 < fenn> dunno
10:58 < superkuh> I do hope their cloning of Starship goes well.
10:59 < L29Ah> maaku: they could make it given they don't need to return the crew back
10:59 < superkuh> Can't have a space race if they're still using 1960s rocket tech.
10:59 < maaku> they're more than a decade behind their goals for earth orbit missions
10:59 < fenn> apollo went from zero to luna in less time
10:59 < fenn> and the US was much poorer then than china is now
10:59 < maaku> a mission to the moon is orders of magnitude less complex than a 2-year deep space mission to mars
11:00 < fenn> well they are already in orbit
11:00 < fenn> all i'm saying is that big things are still possible
11:00 < maaku> like for example, the apollo space suit air seals break down after just a few days exposure to moon dust, but not a problem if you only spend 3 days there!
11:00 < L29Ah> (and given chinese rebreather won't go out in mid-flight)
11:01 < maaku> any mission to mars would be months on the surface, then a half-year (minimum) flight back
11:01 < L29Ah> but they're past launch by the time they go out, so technically they still launched a crewed mission to Mars
11:01 < maaku> yeah I'm not saying they won't make it or they won't try (Russia on the other hand...)
11:02 < maaku> but 2033? That's dreaming. NASA couldn't make that goal either.
11:02 < fenn> the duration stuff doesn't seem like a big problem. artificial gravity solves most of the health problems, and radiation has been overblown by nasa parasites
11:02 < maaku> fenn: no I'm talking about things like air seals continuing to work after being exposed to martian fines
11:02 < fenn> eh the martian fines are not as bad as lunar fines because the wind knocks the edges off
11:03 < maaku> it's a different set of problems
11:03 < fenn> i don't know what category "thing like" fits into
11:03 < fenn> "things like ..."
11:04 < maaku> the fines are small enough that they get worked between surfaces that are glued together and break contact, and they have weird surface chemistry due to their nanoparticle size
11:04 < maaku> even though they are not (we think!) abrasive like lunar fines are
11:05 < fenn> i didn't know about the glue thing. that can be fixed by clamping everything positively with rigid backers right?
11:06 < maaku> maybe, depends on the context
11:07 < maaku> point is lots of commercial off-the-shelf stuff won't work, and things need to be designed from scratch for surface operations (or return transit ops after contamination from the surface)
11:07 < maaku> that takes time to design, develop, test
11:07 < maaku> same for the very frigid surface temps, although we have a bit more experience in this area
11:08 < fenn> robot anoraks
12:09 < kanzure> maaku have you seen paprika?
12:21 < heath> "Scientists Have Created A New Gene-Editing Tool That Could Outperform CRISPR" https://interestingengineering.com/new-gene-editing-tool-lets-scientists-do-things-crispr-cant
12:21 < heath> "High-throughput functional variant screens via in vivo production of single-stranded DNA" https://www.pnas.org/content/118/18/e2018181118
13:19 < jrayhawk> what's needed to get elsevier sites to stop cyclicly redirecting? e.g. cell.com
13:25 < jrayhawk> oh, cookie policy issue
13:25 < jrayhawk> fucking w3c
14:30 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@user/urchin] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:36 < fltrz> "You have been kicked from ##crypto by ChanServ (Invite only channel)" ...
14:37 < fltrz> itss super secret talk over there?
14:49 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:d91d:9054:ac4f:2303] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:10 -!- Codaraxis [~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:14 -!- Codaraxis_ [~Codaraxis@193.32.126.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
18:23 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0:d91d:9054:ac4f:2303] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:39 -!- catalase_ [~catalase@user/catalase] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:04 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Black_Rainbow
19:45 -!- Codaraxis_ [~Codaraxis@ip68-5-90-227.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:49 -!- Codaraxis [~Codaraxis@user/codaraxis] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
22:08 -!- Codaraxis__ [~Codaraxis@193.32.126.161] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:12 -!- Codaraxis_ [~Codaraxis@ip68-5-90-227.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
--- Log closed Sat Jun 26 00:00:48 2021