--- Log opened Tue Oct 26 00:00:14 2021 02:39 -!- srk [~sorki@user/srk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:55 -!- srk [~sorki@user/srk] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:01 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@id-14990.uxbridge.irccloud.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:56 -!- balrog [znc@user/balrog] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:59 -!- balrog [znc@user/balrog] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:03 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0::f2f0] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:20 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@id-14990.uxbridge.irccloud.com] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:03 < lsneff> Well, I'm not sure how useful it will be to continue this but I guess we can give it one more go. Let's come at this with your perspective being the mainstream one (which I think it probably is). 10:03 < lsneff> And I'll try to forget my hard opinions and ask about yours. 10:04 < lsneff> So, is your view is that personal identity is only maintained if brain activity is maintained? If brain activity stops, it's a different person if they somehow wake up again? 11:48 < fenn> the mainstream view is that personal identity and brain activity are completely unrelated, until some medical disaster disabuses one of that notion 11:48 < fenn> you are both weirdos 11:49 < fenn> all neuroscientists are weirdos 11:50 < fenn> also i can't imagine what you expect to get out of this conversation 12:25 < docl> I sometimes think back to this article wrt this topic https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 12:25 < docl> .title 12:25 < saxo> What Colour are your bits? - Ansuz - mskala's home page 12:26 < docl> "Bits do not naturally have Colour. Colour, in this sense, is not part of the natural universe. Most importantly, you cannot look at bits and observe what Colour they are ... The trouble is, human beings are not in general Colour-blind. The law is not Colour-blind. It makes a difference not only what bits you have, but where they came from." 12:27 < fenn> i guess you're trying to say something about bayesian priors? 12:27 < docl> this is making a point wrt intellectual property but I think it applies to how people intuit differently about personal identity 12:27 < docl> nah nothing like that 12:28 < docl> bits and colors are mostly analogies here 12:45 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-176-181-220.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:09 < docl> more for the bingo card, but the color of your bits thing relates to stuff like if you make an atomically precise copy of the mona lisa and charge people for seeing the genuine mona lisa are you guilty of fraud... ultimately that comes down to whether the law defines things identities based on the arrangements of atoms or not. but like, while the synth mona lisa is 100% causally dependent on the 13:09 < docl> original mona lisa (+ all the scanning/nanoconstruction equipment, but not the precise details thereof), the original mostly doesn't depend on anything other than its own past self (+ non-interference, not getting burned in a fire and so on), and that's probably how most people would prefer art (or say, 200 year old wine) to work 13:13 < docl> cryptocurrency sort of inverts this by picking rare bit combos that are hard to discover and awarding ownership to whoever possesses them, and letting people bid on them. (this is counterintuitive and if someone takes a picture of your private key people will still call them a thief... the protocol doesn't care though, and can't) 15:21 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-176-181-220.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:23 < kanzure> hmph 15:23 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-176-181-220.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:41 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-176-181-220.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-176-181-220.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:59 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-89-176-181-220.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:04 < lsneff> do you have something to add, kanzure 17:10 < fenn> .title https://futurism.com/russia-launch-cosmonauts-spacex-spacecraft 17:10 < saxo> Russia Admits Defeat, Says It’ll Launch Cosmonauts on SpaceX Spacecraft 17:11 < fenn> not sure if i believe this 17:16 < maaku> fenn: the author and the editor of this piece clearly know nothing about the space business 17:16 < maaku> or whatever, the spin is totally unwarranted (and its in the article not just the title) 17:18 < maaku> NASA has been supporting Roscosmos financially for a long while now, by buying Soyuz crew seats at a pretty penny. With Crew Dragon online and reliable, this is coming to an end. 17:19 < fenn> so they can't afford to keep launching soyuz without paying passengers? 17:19 < maaku> no that's nonsense. Soyuz will keep flying 17:20 < maaku> they were trying to get this money by threatening to pull out of the ISS, but NASA/Congress has been firmly against any further payments 17:20 < maaku> so who knows what they'll do to make up the cash shortfall. but there are no plans to stop flying Soyuz 17:20 < fenn> other recent news https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/putin-slashes-russias-space-budget-and-says-he-expects-better-results/ 17:21 < maaku> However NASA does want to continue flying astronauts on Soyuz (for continuity if nothing else--each crew rotation would have members from both sides), and to do that on a no-cost basis Roscosmos will get to fly an equal number of cosmonauts up on Dragon 17:27 < maaku> So "Roscosmos has given up negotiating for its preferred outcome" rather than "Roscosmos has given up flying" 17:29 < fenn> wouldn't it be better for them to keep flying their own cosmonauts on the off chance that nasa will need to use soyuz in the future 17:29 < fenn> and then they'd get paid $100m per seat 17:30 < fenn> basically they're trading a $100m ticket price seat for a $50m seat 17:30 < maaku> NASA is not going to pay them a dime for anything going forward. That has 0% chance of happening. 17:31 < maaku> So their choice is isolation or a no-cost cooperative trade where their cosmonauts get trained on Dragon systems and can thus at least do some industrial espionage. 17:32 < maaku> Dmitry Rogozin (head of Roscosmos) is sanctioned by the US government and has his assets in western countries frozen. 17:32 < fenn> i wouldn't say 0% chance... starliner is not looking good 17:32 < maaku> Don't need it. Starliner is just redundancy for Dragon. 17:33 < maaku> It requires literally an act of congress for every individual deal with russian space sector, and the US political leadership doesn't want to funnel money to oligarchs. 17:34 < maaku> SpaceX is already handling all the US-side crew rotation needs of ISS just fine, and has time to send bilionares up on joyrides too. Adding starliner will actually decrease SpaceX's flight rate. 17:34 < fenn> i guess offloading cosmonauts to dragon lets them fly other paying customers 17:35 < maaku> If they can find anyone to pay, yes. 17:43 < maaku> Actually no, they'll be flying NASA or EU astronauts in those slots. 17:43 < maaku> It's a 1:1 swap of astronauts/cosmonauts 19:05 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0::f2f0] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:45 -!- Croran [~Croran@71.231.214.173] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:57 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap --- Log closed Wed Oct 27 00:00:15 2021