--- Log opened Fri Nov 12 00:00:30 2021
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09:57 < muurkha> fenn: yes, the dark corners are the idea
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10:03 < muurkha> maaku: have you put your notes on constructivist design etc. online?
10:26 -!- acertain_ is now known as acertain
10:29 < kanzure> if you could regenerate a specific human tissue, which one would you want to target?
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10:46 < muurkha> grey matter
10:49 < muurkha> (the real answer is "whatever is easiest outside the liver" though, because there are no genies that trade off the ability to regenerate any specific human tissue against the ability to regenerate any other)
10:55 < muurkha> maybe the bigger question is why birds, mammals, snakes, and crocodilians are so shitty at reparative regeneration, because it's a widespread ability throughout the wider clades they belong to, so it was probably lost at some point
10:57 < muurkha> so there must be an evolutionary benefit that compensates for all the three-legged dogs and one-eyed pigeons out there.  any idea what it is?  my only hypothesis so far is cancer resistance
11:03 < fenn> regenerate in a lab presumably
11:04 < fenn> thymus seems pretty important, and probably easy to regenerate as organoids
11:04 < muurkha> likely.  that'll be harder for grey matter than for a thymus or testicle or something
11:06 < muurkha> in vitro epithelial regeneration is routine for decades now
11:06  * muurkha sips a baby-foreskin smoothie
12:00 < muurkha> fenn: https://youtu.be/aDXvyRd3JY4 shows Sperry NC equipment using closed-loop inductive (?) positional feedback sometime in the early 01950s, because Sperry changed its name from the Sperry Gyroscope Company to Sperry Rand in 01955
12:02 < muurkha> .to fenn this must have been close to the 01955 name change though because they're using printed circuit boards
12:02 < saxo> Okay, I'll pass that message along to fenn
12:08 < muurkha> .to fenn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_numerical_control#Servos_and_synchros claims that closed-loop control was necessary to get down to even the 25-μm precision required of low-precision machining jobs
12:08 < saxo> Okay, I'll pass that message along to fenn
12:08 < muurkha> funny part of that is that of course screw machines and handwheels don't have closed-loop control!
12:23 < muurkha> it seems like the systems they were contrasting it with were Arma Corp.'s 01952 numerically controlled lathe and MIT's numerically controlled mill that was featured in the September 01952 Scientific American
12:32  * fenn blinks
12:32 < saxo> fenn: <muurkha> this must have been close to the 01955 name change though because they're using printed circuit boards
12:32 < saxo> fenn: <muurkha> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_numerical_control#Servos_and_synchros claims that closed-loop control was necessary to get down to even the 25-μm precision required of low-precision machining jobs
12:34 < fenn> screw machines are not very precise
12:35 < fenn> why prepend dates with 0
12:35 < muurkha> how imprecise are screw machines?
12:35 < fenn> i sorta get prepending with 1 because there is 10,000 years of prehistory
12:35 < muurkha> prepending dates with 0 is silly
12:36 < muurkha> there's more like 2 million years of prehistory if we start from stone tools
12:36 < fenn> 1950s screw machine, not less than .0005" precision
12:36 < fenn> modern ones are probably better by an order of magnitude
12:37 < fenn> = 13 micron
12:37 < fenn> another thing is that error is relative to the size of the machine tool, and workpiece to some extent
12:38 < muurkha> see, that's already better than the precision WP was saying NC tools needed closed-loop feedback to achieve
12:39 < muurkha> though this Sperry video claims 2.5-μm precision
12:39 < muurkha> https://blog.longnow.org/02013/12/31/long-now-years-five-digit-dates-and-10k-compliance-at-home/
12:39 < fenn> this month is turning out to be a death march, please dont take my lack of channel participation to be lack of interest
12:39 < muurkha> no worries, I just thought you'd probably be interested when you did resurface
12:40 < muurkha> I think nowadays most screw machines have been replaced by CNC lathes
12:47 < muurkha> (which, yes, commonly achieve the 2.5-μm precision Sperry's promotional film claims, like a Moore jig borer from the 01930s)
12:49 < muurkha> hilarious thing about this Sperry video: it shows Univac wirewrapping their backplane under the control of IBM cards!
12:54 < muurkha> oh actually it mentions "the parent Sperry Rand Corporation" at the end of the video
12:55 < muurkha> so I guess this was shortly *after* 01955, not before.  but the point remains that closed-loop control was present from the beginning of NC machining
12:55 < fenn> there are still a lot of screw machines in use, for makign pipe fittings, RF connectors, ballpoint pens...
12:55 < fenn> pretty much anything that can be made on a screw machine _is_, because it's a lot faster and cheaper
12:58 < muurkha> really?
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12:59 < fenn> clanking cams and levers are a lot cheaper per unit horsepower than fancy low inertia servos
13:01 < muurkha> you don't need a lot of horsepower to position the toolbit
13:01 < fenn> more than you'd expect, because there's also a heavy carriage and tool turret and so on
13:02 < fenn> for fast moves it ends up being at least 1 horse
13:02 < muurkha> aye
13:03  * fenn meditates on the meaning of suffering
13:04 < muurkha> dunno, I just haven't ever seen a cam-driven screw machine that was made in the last few decades.  maybe there are lots of them out there and I'm just not looking in the right places
13:06 < muurkha> in fact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_lathe says, "CNC has not yet entirely displaced mechanically automated lathes, as although no longer in production, many mechanically automated lathes remain in service."
13:07 < muurkha> so apparently there isn't enough of a market for screw machines to get people to keep making them
13:54 < kanzure> fenn: in context i was actually about asking in vivo tissue regeneration targets in human mammalians
13:54 < kanzure> michael west is shopping around some stuff because of bezos/altos
13:55 < muurkha> altos?
13:56 < muurkha> well, I think clearly grey matter would be the highest-return possible target, but it's probably also one of the more difficult ones
13:56 < kanzure> https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/04/1034364/altos-labs-silicon-valleys-jeff-bezos-milner-bet-living-forever/
13:56 < kanzure> their approach is based on yamanaka factors for induced pluripotent stem cells
13:57 < muurkha> aha, so they'll definitely cause cancer
13:57 < kanzure> yes
13:57 < kanzure> michael's doesn't
13:57 < kanzure> https://www.longevity.technology/agex-and-lineage-granted-pluripotent-patent/
13:59 < kanzure> https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110143441
14:07 < muurkha> how's BioViva doing these days?
14:08 < muurkha> I imagine the optics of looking like Theranos have been a problem for them
14:12 < kanzure> haven't been paying attention to them. presumably they proceeded with their medical group partnership (IBT?).
14:15 < muurkha> crunchbase says they're "active" but doesn't show any new funding (but sometimes crunchbase misses things).  Theranos might have scared medical groups off such partnerships
14:17 < kanzure> well they keep sending me spam
14:18 < kanzure> i think this is their partner? https://ihspets.com/
14:28 < kanzure> https://www.integrated-health-systems.com/
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19:59 < maaku> muurkha: no i haven't published. just literal notes littered around my hard drive and actual paper
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--- Log closed Sat Nov 13 00:00:31 2021