--- Log opened Fri Dec 03 00:00:50 2021
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13:30 < maaku> those are just, like, the stages of life, man
13:31 < adlai> birth, noncommutative interaction, death; life is just another operator calculus
13:32  * adlai oughtta catch up on logs, been irc-deaf for a while
13:34 < adlai> what's the point of https://gnusha.org/logs/timestamps/ ?
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14:27 < kanzure> adlai: opentimestamps.org timestamps are useful for proving the earliest date for which you could have altered a document
14:29 < adlai> yeah, I interpreted the ".ots" to probably be that, and am familiar with the general idea; but what's the point of tamperproof-timestamping IRC logs?
14:30 < adlai> I guess it makes serving the logs without TLS much less insane.
14:31 < adlai> is there a summary somewhere of the timestamping structure that you use?
14:34 < kanzure> https://gnusha.org/timestamper.py
14:36 < kanzure> adlai: it's like a reverse proof-of-knowledge... if a document says X, and another one later says Y, then by having a timestamp for X you can show that you must not have known Y. i think that's the one use case for it?
14:36 < kanzure> adlai: it's a cool little toy but the actual use cases are limited AFAIK
14:36 < kanzure> andytoshi: correct me if i'm wrong here^
14:37 < kanzure> if you had a stock prediction scam, you could timestamp 100 different stock price predictions at the same time, and only publish the winning one later- so for stock prices, or things that are guessable or easily forged like that, timestamps don't have that much value
14:38 < adlai> well, they also resolve sequencing disputes, especially when everyone uses the same timeline
14:39 < adlai> two competing git histories can prove sequences within each one, although timestaming the metadata can resolve conflicts across seemingly unrelated histories.
14:40 < kanzure> why would that need an actual timestamp? why not just a plaintext timestamp?
14:40 < kanzure> i guess it might be an adversarially-altered plaintext timestamp infecting your git repository.....
14:44 < adlai> I'm hoping there are usecases for this other than intellectual property disputes.
14:45 < kanzure> i don't think it works for intellectual property disputes? isn't it first to file now?
14:45 < kanzure> and first to file is determined by the integrity of the USPTO system
14:45  * adlai used 'intellectual property' in the most general sense of the concepts, so even e.g. "who invented calculus first" falls under this
14:47 < adlai> the worst part of this waste of human effort and emotion isn't even software patents; it's disputes like "should Led Zeppelin compensate some other artist for publishing a tune that is similar to Stairway to Heaven?"
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14:59 < adlai> obviously, patent offices could minimize uncertainty in their filing process by recognizing and encouraging timestamping
15:00 < adlai> it'd eliminate the plausibility of "FedEx ate my homework"-style quibbles
16:27 < adlai> docl: in https://gnusha.org/logs/2021-11-07.log , when you use the metaphor of 'diamond-shaped' complexity profiles, are you referring simply to the dual of the unit square ?
16:28 < adlai> [ that is, the stereiotypical "draw a diamond" taught in preschools to reduce creativity and individualism, that is simply a square with the corners at the top bottom left and right of the orientation
16:28 < adlai>  ]
16:31 < adlai> this shape, as opposed to the other likely meaning of that word, which is an axial cross-section of the "brilliant" shape, in gemology
16:31 < adlai> .wik brilliant cut
16:31 < saxo> "A brilliant is a diamond or other gemstone cut in a particular form with numerous facets so as to have exceptional brilliance. The shape resembles that of a cone and provides maximized light return through the top of the diamond. /  Even with modern techniques, the cutting [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brilliant_cut
16:32 < adlai> essentially, its simplest form is the previously-mentioned 'diamond' shape, with one corner docked.
16:33 < adlai> e.g., the unit square, except with (1,0) and (0,1) connected directly instead of via (1,1)
16:36 < adlai> ultimately, unless your manufacturing goals are turning the world into gray goo, there is probably a broad space of desired products, and this corresponds better to the flat top in the 'brilliant' shape, than to the 'diamond' shape.
16:36 < adlai> oh, the most familiar example of this 'diamond' shape is probably the iconography on playing cards.
16:37 < adlai> from that world, the 'brilliant' shape is more similar to the spade icon: pointed at one end, fat in the middle, overall tapering towards the other end, although with a blunted point.
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19:09 < maaku> adlai: like most timestamping, it is trivial to do now but cannot be retroactive. might as well do it for anything that is considered public and logged (irc, publicly hosted git repos, etc.)
19:09 < maaku> the cost is low
19:24 < fenn> adlai: it's a pointy topped diamond because for the purposes of discussing replicator scaling, only the products which contribute to the replicator (the points of the diamond) matter, the other potential products don't contribute directly to scaling
19:24 < saxo> fenn: <muurkha> how's it going with numerical integration of ODEs?
19:24 < fenn> gah
19:25 < fenn> bad saxo, no!
19:25 < fenn> now my secret is out :P
19:29 < fenn> move along, nothing to see here...
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21:13 < kanzure> hmph
21:50 < nmz787> baduhmph
23:05 < muurkha> timestamps might be useful for patent prior art, but IRC logs might test the boundaries of the "in print" language in the patent law
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23:06 < muurkha> first-to-file is relevant when you're arguing about who gets a patent, not about whether a patent is valid
23:06 < muurkha> filing for a patent is not the same as publishing an invention in print
23:07 < muurkha> timestamping is also useful for proving that some data wasn't compromised after a given date.  for example, there's a conspiracy-theory rumor that reinsurance company stock prices fell dramatically in August 02001
23:08 < muurkha> if you tried to dissuade a conspiracy theorist with historical stock data, they'd presumably want to see evidence that the historical stock data wasn't modified in September 02001
23:10 < muurkha> wrt diamond shape, I don't think you actually need to design a cyclic fabrication system to produce a broad space of desired products
23:13 < muurkha> I agree that that's the actual goal, but it's sufficient to aim for making the control system operating within the CFS easy to reprogram to produce different variants of itself, and open to (intentional) modification
23:17 < muurkha> that is, you don't need to consider how easy or hard it will be to produce baseball caps, electron microscopes, or airplanes; you can leave that problem to people who are trying to coax your CFS to do something useful when the only materials it can make things out of are, say, aluminum and aluminum oxide
23:20 < muurkha> in the same way you don't need to worry about whether the first general-purpose computer is good at multiple-precision arithmetic: https://gmplib.org/list-archives/gmp-devel/2021-September/006013.html
23:24 < muurkha> because the crucial Rubicon to cross is the one between traditional investing-in-capital-goods-to-create-productive-capacity economic systems and being able to grow airplanes and electron microscopes the way we grow yeast, pine trees, and corn
--- Log closed Sat Dec 04 00:00:51 2021