--- Log opened Sun Dec 12 00:00:58 2021 00:54 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:43 < fenn> juri_: whatever you're doing, the more "clever" (i.e. you start mentioning different types of algebras) the less likely it is that any random developer will be able to contribute 04:44 < fenn> writing a math paper = bad code 04:45 < juri_> fenn: yeah, i agree. 04:45 < juri_> not trying to be clever.. just trying to write something solid, and discovering things around the way. 06:20 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@user/andytoshi] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:20 -!- soundandfury [~soundandf@user/soundandfury] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:42 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0::f2f0] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:48 < lsneff> maaku: Yeah 08:32 < lsneff> docl: given that you're talking about ecm so much these days, have you seen fabric8? 08:33 < lsneff> https://fabric8labs.com/ 08:33 < lsneff> it pisses me off that they patented the process, but it is neat nonetheless 08:43 < docl> no, will check it out 08:46 < docl> .title https://patents.justia.com/assignee/fabric8labs-inc 08:46 < saxo> Patents Assigned to Fabric8Labs, Inc. - Justia Patents Search 08:52 < lsneff> I was actually annoyed enough to put significant work into figuring out how to copy their printer, but I ran into issues with figuring out how to do the electrode array 08:56 < lsneff> I think an array of exposed pads on a pcb would work if they're small enough, but I had some trouble finding ways to drive the array without a mosfet IC for each electrode 08:59 < docl> what kind of voltage/current are we talking about on each electrode? 08:59 < lsneff> no idea 09:01 < docl> maybe I can figure it out from this patent https://patents.justia.com/patent/10975485 09:02 < docl> how many electrodes on your array? 09:03 < lsneff> Ideally, the same resolution as an LCD, but very unlikely to get there with a pcb 09:03 < docl> looks like they are talking 1V or less 09:05 < docl> I wonder if a crt monitor with the phosphor removed would be a good grow surface, since it's a magnetically steered electron beam 09:06 < lsneff> That's pretty clever, but crts aren't common enough these days for a reproducible open-source project 09:07 < lsneff> My initial thought was an exposed TFT array from an LCD without any of the liquid crystal part, but I had a very difficult time getting anyone to produce them 09:07 < lsneff> \ 09:08 < lsneff> And it's possible they wouldn't be able to handle the current 09:08 < docl> hmm, pretty much any display has to map voltages to specific spots 09:09 < docl> maybe there's enough residual voltage in some of them despite the part that turns it into light 09:09 < docl> or you could try to go the other direction with a photovoltaic element 09:10 < lsneff> I thought about that to, but I don't have access to the chemicals to make a photovoltaic layer 09:10 < lsneff> And again, the voltages/currents might not be enough 09:10 < lsneff> Did the patent say the expected current draw per electrode? 09:12 < docl> yeah current is listed in A/dm2 09:13 < docl> hmm, since electrodes at pixel size are a small fraction of a decimeter it should be pretty low amps 09:14 < lsneff> how low are you talking? ma? 09:14 < docl> 400 A/dm^2 on the high side, 0.1 on the low side 09:15 < docl> 1 dm^2 = 0.01 m^2 09:15 < lsneff> great, a range of three orders of magnitude 09:16 < docl> how small are pixels in m^2? like 0.1 mm wide? 09:17 < docl> looks like current is greatly dependent on the metal being used 09:18 < lsneff> a 300ppi display has (square) pixels ~1.5 mm on each side 09:19 < lsneff> Which actually sounds surprisingly doable on a pcb if there are ICs that can drive many electrodes at once 09:25 < docl> so 0.0044 pixels per dm^2 I think 09:27 < docl> those ics have to exist for displays to work... maybe take apart an led and use the chips from it? 09:27 < docl> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm620zVgUaY 09:27 < saxo> How IT Looks Inside AN LCD Display Screen - YouTube 09:30 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@user/malvolio] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@user/malvolio] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:35 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@user/malvolio] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36 < lsneff> Oh, they definitely exist, usually for driving LCD matrices 09:37 < lsneff> LCDs are different because they have transistors printed on the substrate 09:37 < lsneff> From there, you just need crossbar connections between all pixels, and no specialized ICs necessary 09:37 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@user/malvolio] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:38 < lsneff> I need drivers or at least ICs with a bunch of independent mosfets in them 10:01 < docl> I wonder if there's a way to cheaply do mosfets with an inkjet on paper 10:01 < docl> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-01210-2 10:01 < docl> .title 10:01 < saxo> Fully inkjet-printed two-dimensional material field-effect heterojunctions for wearable and textile electronics | Nature Communications 10:11 < lsneff> Perhaps, but too complicated. 10:18 < muurkha> 17:06 < lsneff> That's pretty clever, but crts aren't common enough these days for a reproducible open-source project 10:19 < muurkha> people still discard CRTs regularly. in some countries this is tightly regulated because of the lead, in others people just dump them on the sidewalk 10:20 < lsneff> I don't think I've seen someone throwing away a CRT for at least 5 years 10:20 < muurkha> lsneff: you might be interested in the Applied Science video about electroluminescent paint, which included at least transparent conductors. also the old PLATO terminals just used thin wires outside the glass 10:21 < lsneff> Yep, that used ITO 10:21 < lsneff> Doesn't get around needing transistors/fets 10:21 < muurkha> no 10:21 < muurkha> you might live in a country where people aren't allowed to just dump them on the sidewalk 10:22 < muurkha> in which case you could probably buy them in bulk from a recycling center 10:26 < lsneff> docl: 400 A/dm^2 ? How on earth can they pump more than an amp per pixel? 10:27 < docl> no idea... that was listed as the upper range for iron and ferrous alloys (1-400+) 10:28 < lsneff> Did they say what it was for copper? 10:28 < docl> maybe the solution is very conductive? 10:29 < lsneff> I guess, you need high currents to speed up the process 10:29 < docl> 1.6 to 260 A/dm^2 10:29 < docl> higher than iron on the low end 10:29 < lsneff> The solution needs a lot of metal ions in it, so very conductive 10:30 < docl> higher conductivity of copper might have something to do with the higher amps on low end vs iron, since you get more amps per volt if there is less resistance 10:45 < muurkha> is that 400 average or peak? 10:46 < docl> it says 1-400+ so I'm thinking they mean ~peak 10:46 < muurkha> 400 A/dm² is only 40 mA/mm², which seems like a totally reasonable amount to control with a single transistor, even a "signal" transistor 10:48 < muurkha> fuck, if I'd published https://dercuano.github.io/notes/electrodeposition-3d-printing.html when I wrote it in 02016 instead of in 02019, it would have invalidated their patents 10:49 < muurkha> but I didn't 10:50 < lsneff> It's already invalid I would think. There's just too much pre-existing similar tech 10:50 < lsneff> But that's the kind of thing people would need to fight in court 10:50 < lsneff> And I'm more the type to do it and see if they DMCA me 10:50 < muurkha> I don't know of any prior art that disclosed an anode *array* 10:50 < muurkha> and not for lack of looking! 10:50 < muurkha> the DMCA doesn't apply to patents 10:51 < muurkha> they can't sue you to stop talking about their patent or describing how to practice it; that's contrary to the purpose of patent 10:51 < muurkha> they *can* sue you to stop *inducing* people to infringe it 10:51 < muurkha> or to stop infringing it in your own lab, if you live in a place where their patent is valid 10:52 < lsneff> Ah, interesting 10:52 < lsneff> So, sounds like something to publish anonymously 10:53 < muurkha> https://patents.google.com/patent/US20170145578A1/en?oq=+20170145578 lists WO (WIPO/PCT) EP (European Patent Office) US 10:53 < lsneff> Looking at those current output requirements, I might be able to drive them with a regular fpga actually 10:53 < muurkha> maybe, but if you publish it anonymously that may weigh in favor of a finding of willfulness in any possible future patent suit 10:53 < muurkha> but then so would this chat log 10:56 < lsneff> Hmm 10:57 < lsneff> Clearly I would be willfully breaking patents 10:57 < lsneff> Ugh, I hate patents 10:59 < docl> I'd think you can only break patents by selling the device commercially 10:59 < docl> not a lawyer or anything 10:59 < lsneff> Not true, I believe 10:59 < docl> but wouldn't an open source project fall under fair use? 10:59 < lsneff> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_infringement#:~:text=In%20United%20States%20law%2C%20an%20infringement%20may%20occur%20where%20the%20defendant%20has%20made%2C%20used%2C%20sold%2C%20offered%20to%20sell%2C%20or%20imported%20an%20infringing%20invention%20or%20its%20equivalent 11:01 < fenn> fair use is a copyright thing 11:01 < lsneff> fair use is for copyright, not patents 11:01 < fenn> there are exceptions to patents for doing research, but not for using the device in your business 11:02 < muurkha> aha, thanks, fenn, I'd forgotten there was a research exception if I ever knew. how far does it extend? 11:04 < muurkha> oh actually their priority date is 02015-11-19, so even publishing that in 02016 wouldn't have been soon enough 11:04 < lsneff> I wouldn't really mind patents being a few years, but 20 years is insane 11:04 < lsneff> To be fair, I think patents make zero sense 11:05 < muurkha> the US patent was granted in 02019, the EPO one is pending 11:05 < docl> hard to accept that it's patentable in the first place... electrochemistry is old. if you believe it isn't patentable, doesn't make sense that using it would constitute knowing infringement 11:05 < muurkha> docl: do you know of prior art with an array of anodes? 11:06 < docl> no, but it would surprise me if it didn't exist 11:06 < muurkha> not sure about the PCT application status, and I'm not sure how long they have if the PCT application is granted to file patents in various national jurisdictions 11:06 < muurkha> I haven't been able to find any, and I've been looking for years 11:06 < muurkha> admittedly, apparently not hard enough to find this patent application 11:07 < docl> top google result for anode array is from 1977 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20168748/ 11:07 < muurkha> willful infringement can still happen in the face of an objectively unreasonable belief that the patent is invalid; see *Underwater Devices* for example 11:08 < muurkha> that's not even electrochemical, docl, much less deposition 11:10 < muurkha> FWIW I live in a non-PCT-signatory country, but I'm not being very effective at doing things 11:10 < muurkha> and importing things into Argentina is a bear 11:10 < lsneff> How specific is fabric8's patent? Could there be a different way of doing it that doesn't violate the patent? 11:10 < muurkha> maybe, I haven't finished reading it 11:11 < docl> maybe the crt driven version is substantially different enough? 11:12 < muurkha> I don't think you can do electrodeposition at a macroscopic scale with currents running through a CRT 11:14 < docl> .title https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1.2048416/meta 11:14 < saxo> ShieldSquare Captcha 11:14 < docl> Fabrication of an Array of Precision Nozzles by Through‐Mask Electrochemical Micromachining 11:14 < muurkha> there's *nothing* in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_Cooperation_Treaty that specifies a limit on how late you can enter the national phase 11:15 < lsneff> docl: looks like subtractive 11:15 < muurkha> not only is it subtractive, it uses only a single anode rather than an array of them 11:16 < muurkha> (also a single cathode, which would be the more relevant thing for subtractive) 11:19 < muurkha> oh, yes it does 11:19 < muurkha> it's 30 or 31 months in most countries 11:19 < muurkha> .t https://www.wipo.int/pct/en/texts/time_limits.html 11:19 < saxo> Time Limits for Entering National/Regional Phase under PCT Chapters I and II (in months from priority date) 11:20 < muurkha> I was just misreading that in the Wiki page as *at least* 30 months, not *at most* 11:21 < muurkha> so I think in fact that dealine has already passed 11:22 < muurkha> for WO2017087884A1 11:22 < muurkha> though I could be wrong 11:23 < lsneff> https://patents.google.com/patent/US4828654A/en 11:23 < lsneff> .tt 11:23 < lsneff> .t 11:23 < saxo> US4828654A - Variable size segmented anode array for electroplating - Google Patents 11:23 < muurkha> the actual issued patent in the US is https://patents.google.com/patent/US10465307B2/en 11:23 < lsneff> .t https://patents.google.com/patent/US6497801B1/en 11:23 < saxo> US6497801B1 - Electroplating apparatus with segmented anode array - Google Patents 11:24 < muurkha> their two independent claims are #1 and #11 11:25 < muurkha> #1 has a reaction chamber, an anode array, a cathode, a positioning system, a current or voltage sensor, and a microcontroller 11:26 < lsneff> Easy, use an fpga instead of a microcontroller 11:26 < muurkha> an FPGA might be a "microcontroller" as construed by the courts 11:26 < lsneff> Yeah, I'm just kidding 11:26 < muurkha> no, it might work 11:27 < lsneff> Or, I suppose the feedback could be controlled through a circuit instead of software 11:27 < lsneff> How transformative does it need to be? 11:27 < muurkha> transformativeness isn't a thing in patent law 11:27 < lsneff> Ah, I see 11:28 < muurkha> at best it might weigh against a finding of willfulness, or at worst in favor of it, but it doesn't affect the infringement verdict at all 11:28 -!- abe_ is now known as abetusk 11:29 < muurkha> #11 has a reaction chamber, an anode array, a cathode, a microcontroller, slicing, microcontroller-controlled electrolyte flow, a microcontroller-controlled process gap, something redundant, individual current and/or voltage monitoring, and repetition 11:29 < muurkha> not sure why #11 is phrased as an independent claim, because it seems to me that it includes all the elements of #1 11:35 < lsneff> I'm saddened that you can patent something this general 11:39 < lsneff> and this obvious 11:40 < docl> this is part of why when I have an idea I try to put it online asap, even if it's still half baked. if someone else patents it, I can at least claim prior art existed 11:46 < lsneff> sigh 11:48 < fenn> if you think that's depressing, check out software patents 11:49 < fenn> "a business method, whereby a user interfaces with a computer, to purchase products over the internet" 11:50 < lsneff> Software patents are at least under contention 11:53 < lsneff> And you’d win if you fought that 11:53 < lsneff> This is a stupid patent that’s enforceable 12:03 < muurkha> the 6,497,801 that you found does have an anode array 12:04 < muurkha> docl: it's possible halfbakery might have prior art 12:07 < muurkha> nothing about the control system 12:07 < muurkha> whether microcontroller or not 12:08 < lsneff> The control part feels weak 12:17 < lsneff> Yeah, I feel like that patent is pretty close 12:18 < lsneff> Doesn’t do the 3d printed part, but that’s an obvious extension 12:31 < lsneff> Regardless, there’s no way for me to challenge it 13:22 < muurkha> I don't think it's an obvious extension, unfortunately. but it does talk about prior art "ECAM" (electrochemical additive manufacturing) claim #1 doesn't have the 3D printed part at all 13:22 < muurkha> using a microcontroller for the control system for the anodes is probably obvious, but not the 3-D printed part 13:40 < lsneff> I bet there’s prior art for 3d printing electrochemically, just with a single moving anode 13:40 < lsneff> Together, would that invalidate? 14:04 < muurkha> yes, there is a lot of prior art for 3d printing electrochemically with just a single moving anode 14:06 < muurkha> I mean you can look at the citations on https://patents.google.com/patent/US10465307B2/en?oq=+20170145578 to find a bunch of it 14:06 < muurkha> anything you find there is guaranteed to not invalidate the patent 14:09 < muurkha> in general patents consist entirely of elements that are already known in the literature combined in a novel way 14:10 < muurkha> so it isn't enough to show that the individual elements are known in the literature 14:10 < muurkha> you have to show that their combination is either found in the literature or obvious 14:21 < lsneff> Oh well, I guess I won't be able to do it then 14:21 < lsneff> Don't really want to risk it 14:35 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-78-102-216-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29 < kanzure> https://commoncog.com/blog/accelerated-expertise/ 16:00 < lsneff> kanzure: you were talking about electrowetting arrays at one point right? for microfluidics 16:01 < maaku> lsneff: post the link here when it's done. good luck! 16:03 < maaku> here in the bay area i routinely see some CRTs left on the street 16:03 < maaku> classic console gamers like them for game rooms because they better reproduce the 8-bit era graphics 16:16 < kanzure> lsneff: electrowetting on dielectrics.. fenn looked into it a bit more than me. 16:16 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/ 16:17 < fenn> DLP projectors can have really bright outputs 16:17 < fenn> perovskite solar cells can be made with aqueous reagents and are only moderately toxic (lead) 16:18 < fenn> maybe there is some way to hack a TFT LCD to switch a high current power source with the pixel transistor 16:19 < fenn> LED -> projector -> solar cell -> electroplating sounds like an extremely inefficient process 16:20 < fenn> the optical electrowetting stuff just sets up a static electric field to manipulate the droplets 16:20 < fenn> it only works on flat surfaces 16:33 < muurkha> lsneff: notes on the research safe habor: 16:33 < muurkha> .t https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4315915/ 16:33 < saxo> Research Use Exemptions to Patent Infringement for Drug Discovery and Development in the United States 16:34 < muurkha> > [I]t could never have been the intention of the legislature to punish a man, who constructed such a machine merely for philosophical experiments, or for the purpose of ascertaining the sufficiency of the machine to produce its described effects. 16:34 < muurkha> > “[it is] well-settled, that an experiment with a patented article for the sole purpose of gratifying a philosophical taste, or curiosity, or for mere amusement, is not an infringement of the rights of the patentee.” 16:35 < muurkha> > Thus where it is made or used as an experiment, whether for the gratification of scientific tastes, or for curiosity, or for amusement, the interests of the patentee are not antagonized, the sole effect being of an intellectual character in the promotion of the employer’s knowledge or the relaxation afforded to his mind. But if the products of the experiment are sold, or used for the convenience 16:35 < muurkha> of the experimentor, or if the experiments are conducted with a view to adaptation of the invention to the experimentor’s business, the acts of making or of use are violations of the rights of the inventor and infringements of his patent. 16:36 < muurkha> so that's the judicially created exemption 16:37 < muurkha> there's also a broader Hatch–Waxman exemption 16:37 < fenn> "philosophical experiments" meaning science, of course 16:37 < lsneff> interesting 16:38 < fenn> does "products of the experiment" mean a physical object, or the knowledge gained? 16:38 < muurkha> but unfortunately it's also narrower, applying only to drugs 16:38 < muurkha> > “It shall not be an act of infringement to make, use, offer to sell, or sell within the United States or import into the United States a patented invention … solely for uses reasonably related to the development and submission of information under a Federal law which regulates the manufacture, use, or sale of drugs or veterinary biological products.” 16:39 < fenn> that doesn't sound right 16:39 < muurkha> I think it means a physical object 16:41 < fenn> oh wow 16:41 < muurkha> .t https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption 16:41 < saxo> "In patent law, the research exemption or safe harbor exemption is an exemption to the rights conferred by patents, which is especially relevant to drugs." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption 16:41 < fenn> "In 2002, the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit dramatically limited the scope of the research exemption in Madey v. Duke University ... the court held that the alleged use was in furtherance of its legitimate business - namely "increas[ing] the status of the institution and lur[ing] lucrative research grants", and thus the defense was inapplicable." 16:42 < fenn> so science = money now 16:42 < fenn> wild 16:42 < muurkha> unless it's your hobby 16:43 < fenn> but you'd be increasing your status and luring lucrative something or others 16:43 < muurkha> .t https://academic.oup.com/jlb/article/7/1/lsaa014/5828395 16:43 < saxo> Research and repair: expanding exceptions to patent infringement in response to a pandemic | Journal of Law and the Biosciences | Oxford Academic 16:44 < fenn> we don't need a pandemic for it to be a good idea 16:44 < muurkha> > By the end of the twentieth century, there was a general understanding that most academic research, unless expressly conducted under contract for a commercial entity, would be immunized from patent infringement under the research exemption. But in 2002, the research exemption in the United States experienced a significant contraction. In Madey v. Duke,7 Duke University continued to use 16:44 < muurkha> experimental laser equipment developed by Dr. John Madey, a former Duke researcher who held patents covering the equipment.8 Dr. Madey sued Duke for infringement, but the district court granted summary judgment in favor of Duke. 16:44 < kanzure> so all we have to do is manufacture novel pandemics to cause regulatory reform 16:44 < kanzure> sign me up 16:44 < fenn> what could possibly go wrong 16:45 < fenn> "the babies, they are being born with ze green skin! we must reform immediately, monsieur president" 16:45 < muurkha> I am of course in agreement with you that the scope of patent law should be reduced, fenn 16:45 < fenn> i would be happy if the whole goddamn system were abolished, but you gotta start somewhere 16:46 < muurkha> clearly you should start with obtaining temporal power 16:46 < fenn> intellectual property tax is another idea. you set the license fee for your patent/copyright/whatever, and then you have to pay taxes on it just like every other property owner out in the real world 16:46 < fenn> taxes proportional to license fee 16:47 < muurkha> the research exemption in Indian patent law is dramatically broader: https://www.mondaq.com/india/patent/654062/experimentation-research-exemption-in-indian-patent-law-scope-and-ambit-of-section-473-remains-uncertain 16:47 < muurkha> .t 16:47 < saxo> Experimentation / Research Exemption In Indian Patent Law: Scope And Ambit Of Section 47(3) Remains Uncertain! - Intellectual Property - India 16:48 < fenn> the real tragedy is that nobody even realizes how bad everything is, they all just think it's supposed to be this way 16:48 < fenn> or that it's inevitable, human nature, whatever 16:49 < fenn> there's no public database of all the things that didn't happen because people like lsneff thought they weren't allowed to make a useful thing 16:49 < muurkha> as a practical matter it is unlikely for a patent suit over research use in the US to win anything but attorneys' fees, and that's only applicable in particularly egregious cases 16:50 < muurkha> because the statutory damages are the greater of the patentee's lost profits and a reasonable royalty 16:50 < muurkha> (possibly trebled in cases where the court elects to award enhanced damages due to willfulness) 16:51 < muurkha> so if you made one infringing device for your own use and used it in your laboratory, they might hope to win a few hundred dollars from you, but they'll have to spend several million dollars on lawyers to get it 16:52 < muurkha> what's the legal status of Antarctica? 16:52 < fenn> the legal status is you're not allowed to do anything 16:52 < fenn> svalbard is much better in this regard 16:53 < muurkha> you're not? 16:53 < fenn> anyone can go to svalbard, without a passport even. and you can do coal mining, really pretty much anything as long as it doesn't harm the ecosystem 16:53 < muurkha> you get kicked off svalbard immediately if you lose your job, don't you? 16:53 < muurkha> you can't retire there 16:53 < muurkha> .t https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_Treaty_System 16:53 < saxo> "The Antarctic Treaty and related agreements, collectively known as the Antarctic Treaty System (ATS), regulate international relations with respect to Antarctica, Earth's only continent without a native human population." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_Treaty_System 16:53 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:54 < fenn> the settlements in svalbard are governed by their individual countries, and they almost certainly have their own rules 16:54 < lsneff> fenn: indeed there is not 16:54 < lsneff> and it’s quite upsetting 16:55 < muurkha> "The majority of Antarctica is claimed by one or more countries, but most countries do not explicitly recognize those claims." 16:57 < muurkha> "Under the 1959 Antarctic Treaty, ratified by 53 nations, persons accused of a crime in Antarctica are subject to punishment by their own country." ---https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Antarctica 16:58 < muurkha> so you could probably infringe whatever patents you want there. better come out with a fait accompli though 16:59 < lsneff> what a waste 17:06 < muurkha> do you know about extraterritoriality under the 17:06 < muurkha> .t https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tientsin 17:06 < saxo> "The Treaty of Tientsin, now also known as the Treaty of Tianjin, is a collective name for several documents signed at Tianjin (then romanized as Tientsin) in June 1858." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tientsin 17:09 < muurkha> imagine if Estonia was able to negotiate extraterritoriality for its e-residents, thus gaining them the right to invent things in other countries despite patents 17:30 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0::f2f0] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:07 < maaku> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Antarctica#List_of_crimes_in_Antarctica 19:19 < muurkha> hilarious --- Log closed Mon Dec 13 00:00:59 2021