--- Log opened Mon Dec 13 00:00:59 2021
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01:53 < maaku> .title https://rumplepay.com
01:53 < saxo> Rumplepay
01:53 < maaku> > 1959 – The Vostok Station (станция Восток), then a Soviet research station in Princess Elizabeth Land, was the scene of a fight between two scientists over a game of chess.[9][2][10] When one of them lost the game, he became so enraged that he attacked the other with an ice axe.[10][9][2] According to some sources, it was a murder,[10][9][2] though other sources say that the attack was not fatal.[11] 
01:53 < maaku> After a KGB investigation, chess games were banned at Soviet/Russian Antarctic stations by the Antarctic Soviet. 
01:53 < maaku> That is the most russian thing I've ever read.
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05:53 < kanzure> trojan source code https://trojansource.codes/trojan-source.pdf
06:18 < kanzure> log4j vulnerabilities https://gist.github.com/SwitHak/b66db3a06c2955a9cb71a8718970c592
06:30 < kanzure> https://forum.age-reversal.net/t/x2hkg1n/pcc1-is-senolytic-and-senomorphic
08:15 < fenn> .title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6424539/
08:15 < saxo> Fine motor deficits and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in primary school children
08:15 < lsneff> any of you have adhd?
08:16 < fenn> dunno
08:16 < fenn> psychiatry is a bit of a swamp
08:16 < fenn> humanity has barely progressed past calling every conceivable brain malfunction a "mental breakdown"
08:19 < fenn> i attributed my bad handwriting in school to being switched rapidly back and forth between being required to use printed handwriting and cursive handwriting
08:21 < lsneff> I've been thinking about seeing if I can get diagnoses
08:21 < lsneff> a stimulant would be really useful to help me stay on track sometimes
08:22 < fenn> try modafinil 50mg or adrafinil if you can't get modfinil
08:22 < fenn> optionally add choline and piracetam
08:23 < fenn> last i checked adrafinil was an unregulated prodrug, with slightly higher chance of side effects than modafinil
08:24 < lsneff> I was thinking I'd get a vyvance prescription or something like that
08:26 < fenn> for some reason my brain always resolves "Vyvanse" as "female viagra"
08:28 < kanzure> we need more biologists in here
08:28 < kanzure> where is juul? is he still around?
08:29 < fenn> .seen juul
08:29 < saxo> Sorry, no available data
08:30 < fenn> not since the great migration from freenode
08:31 < fenn> seems to be still alive and active at counter culture
08:32 < lsneff> is that another channel?
08:32 < fenn> it's a bio lab + hackerspace in oakland
08:33 < lsneff> ah, gotcha
08:35 < lsneff> there's a makerspace in my town, but it's pretty lame
08:36 < lsneff> hackerspaces are much cooler
08:36 < fenn> agreed
08:36 < fenn> "maker" has always rubbed me the wrong way
08:36 < fenn> i think it started as a marketing campaign for make magazine
08:37 < lsneff> it did, yes, or at least at the same time
08:42 < lsneff> the whole maker subculture was/is also about introducing people into the idea of making technology
08:42 < fenn> it's about "you can do it, you don't have to be any good, just make some crap with popsicle sticks and chewing gum, yay!"
08:42 < fenn> "STEM" motivational garbage
08:43 < fenn> as if people who actually try are doing it wrong somehow
08:46 < muurkha> I'd never noticed that aspect of the maker movement
08:47 < lsneff> Yeah, I wouldn't characterize it as that
08:47 < lsneff> I'd say the major issue with the maker movement is that it never emphasized the transition of technologies out of the messing around stage.
08:55 < fenn> it never emphasized the importance of functionality
08:55 < fenn> the hacker tradition was always "Proof of Concept or GTFO"
08:56 < muurkha> yeah, I think that's true
08:57 < lsneff> which is frankly why hacker culture was on its way out. You gotta introduce people to it gradually before you say "proof of concept or gtfo"
08:57 < lsneff> The maker culture is much more welcoming to beginners
08:57 < fenn> in other words, "if your demo doesn't work, don't waste my time"
08:57 < lsneff> They serve different purposes
08:57 < fenn> they serve different neurotypes
08:58 < fenn> an autistic person doesn't need coddling and encouragement, they are just attracted to a subject or not
08:58 < lsneff> that too
08:58 < fenn> hackerspaces are there to provide tools and a social environment for learning, just not coddling and encouragement necessarily
08:58 < fenn> really the main problem seemed to be access to tools
08:59 < lsneff> I think you're confusing mentoring and teaching with coddling
08:59 < fenn> i don't even understand the problem that popsicle sticks is supposed to be solving
08:59 < lsneff> that's a strawman
08:59 < lsneff> I wouldn't have the background I do now without the MIT maker culture
08:59 < fenn> see you've got it all wrong
09:00 < fenn> MIT was the birthplace of hackers
09:00 < muurkha> no, hackers are much older than MIT
09:00 < fenn> well, it's where the term originated
09:00 < muurkha> yes, the term
09:00 < lsneff> MIT figured out how to introduce people to it gradually
09:01 < lsneff> they had camps and stuff where kids were welcome to mess around
09:01 < muurkha> I think the dichotomy we're talking about is the skills and the values
09:01 < fenn> it's definitely a values conflict
09:01 < muurkha> hacker values are that it is good to be good at things and it is good to figure out how to do things that it wasn't clear were possible
09:02 < muurkha> I mean that's not all of them but it's the relevant bit
09:03 < muurkha> well, I guess a third relevant value is that the epistemological standard is evidence, not authority, so nobody is too great to be mistaken or to be questioned, even by a novice
09:04 < muurkha> which is a sort of egalitarianism that can be mistaken for a lack of social hierarchy
09:04 < lsneff> right
09:04 < muurkha> I think the thing that fenn is complaining about in the maker culture is that it failed to inculcate these values
09:04 < lsneff> I guess that makes sense
09:05 < muurkha> I think there really is a sense in which socially valuing being good at things is unavoidably discouraging to beginners
09:05 < muurkha> because when you begin you are not good at things and so you are at the bottom of the social hierarchy
09:06 < muurkha> obvious solution: deprecate the social hierarchy.  this results in two problems
09:06 < fenn> if you have to have a political power structure, it might as well be based in something real and measurable
09:06 < fenn> not just whichever monkey off the street yells the loudest
09:06 < fenn> that's how you get taken over and turned into a farce
09:07 < muurkha> problem 1: the humans can't form groups without social hierarchy, so they construct one anyway, based on things like ingroup signifiers for prestigious social classes ("taste")
09:07 < muurkha> problem 2: lacking the social hierarchy you have no way to inculcate values
09:08 < fenn> on the other hand, one of the founders of metalab and the concept of "hackerspaces" told me that the best way to measure the health of an organization was how quickly a new person could join and then be in charge of a project
09:08 < muurkha> because meritocracy?
09:09 < fenn> because otherwise things become stagnant
09:09 < fenn> you can do both, meritocracy filtered churn
09:10 < fenn> i guess the failure mode they were tryingn to avoid is people endlessly beating their heads against unsolveable problems
09:11 < lsneff> the issue with meritocracies is that they need to do as much as possible to raise new people to that level or they'll become stagnant and society of status over ability
09:12 < lsneff> the hacker culture is susceptible to that
09:15 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Dougherty
09:16 < muurkha> yeah, you need a way for people to get the skills
09:17 < muurkha> fenn: are you talking about new people who are novices, or new people who are bringing in mad skillz from outside?
09:18 < fenn> dunno
09:18 < fenn> everyone has skills of some sort
09:22 < muurkha> some people have a lot more than others, whether because it's easier for them to learn skills or because they spend their time learning skills instead of watching movies or other non-challenging tasks
09:22 < muurkha> or, notably, because they're older
09:24 < fenn> (watching movies would be a better use of time than what most people do)
09:25 < fenn> "anarchist governance models such as a Do-ocracy, in which people receive the authority over a task by doing it."
09:25 < muurkha> what do most people do?
09:25 < fenn> i don't know. it is a mystery
09:25 < fenn> they go into little boxes and work all day, then come home and watch TV
09:25 < fenn> then they go into bars and talk about their dogs
09:25 < muurkha> people who are working all day might be gaining skills
09:26 < fenn> it's possible
09:26 < fenn> from an employer's perspective, time spent learning is wasted money
09:26 < muurkha> yes
09:27 < fenn> you've just transferred a liquid asset (labor pay) to your employee in the form of human capital
09:27 < muurkha> yes
09:27 < fenn> now they own that human capital and can leave with it
09:28 < muurkha> yes.  I suspect increasingly effective ways of preventing that are the real reason that progress cratered in the 01970s
09:29 < muurkha> trade-secret law, narrowed research exemptions for patents, copyright on software, nondisclosure agreements
09:49 < fenn> to flesh out that thought a little: a perfectly rational employee still has an incentive to stick with their employer, because otherwise they would have to go through the risk of trying different employers with unknown levels of hostile advantage-taking behavior. but, humans are not perfectly rational and overvalue known quantities, so the tendency to stay with what you know is even stronger
09:51 < muurkha> yes
09:51 < fenn> as for the earlier statement, Paul Böhm actually said (as i recall) something like: we're optimizing for the least amount of time between when a new person joins and when they're running the place
09:51 < fenn> i confabulated "in charge of a project"
09:51 < muurkha> interesting
09:51 < fenn> because i'm not that radical i guess
09:53 < fenn> i'm quite concerned about the invasion of identity politics into technology, i think it is a strategic blunder or even enemy action against western society
09:54 < fenn> if your first move is to hand away the key to the city, you better have some bulletproof decision making processes and defense in depth
09:55 < fenn> this sort of thing is new, and i associate it with "the maker movement" and not hackers at all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackerspace#Equity_and_justice-centered_making
09:55 < fenn> and now wikipedia has merged makerspace and hackerspace so there is no possible way to disentangle stuff there
09:55 < fenn> i resent being told that i do not exist
09:56 < fenn> "men's shed" is something completely different
09:57 < fenn> i mean it's got identity politics right in the name
09:57 < fenn> "are you a man? yes/no"
09:57 < fenn> "then what are you doing in the men's shed"
09:57 < fenn> "go to the women's shed, or the non-binary shed, or the alphabet salsa shed"
09:58 < fenn> there is a whole lot of stuff about critical theory here https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Theory
09:58 < fenn> i don't really remember this being a thing, but i guess i've only recently become sensitized to it
10:01 < fenn> "proponents of american exceptionalism forgot that it was contingent upon anything"
10:02 < muurkha> why "western"?
10:02 < muurkha> I mean the Cultural Revolution was a much more extreme manifestation of this kind of thing, wasn't it?
10:04 < muurkha> the case of magainin is instructive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magainin
10:04 < muurkha> we could have had another new class of antibiotics, which might not have actually been better than our existing antibiotics but probably would have been useful when antibiotic resistance develops
10:04 < fenn> the "critical theory" stuff was added to the page by "Aschrock" in 2013
10:04 < muurkha> for 10000 years we discovered no antibiotics.  then, for a brief period from 01911 to 01967, we discovered 13 families of antibiotics.  since that 56-year period, it's been another 54 years, and we've brought into use no new classes of antibiotics since then, because the regulatory regime around drugs is profoundly perverse, and is starting to return us to the dark ages where people routinely died 
10:04 < muurkha> from minor cuts and scrapes that got infected
10:04 < muurkha> magainin is one example of how that system fails, but I'm sure there are many others that I just didn't happen to hear of
10:05 < muurkha> capital-T Theory has been a thing for generations in Europe.  Lacan, Foucault, etc.
10:05 < fenn> soviets did some good work on phage therapy, which was promptly forgotten. this would have a much broader impact than another class of antibiotics which could be abused and then wild bacteria develop resistance
10:05 < fenn> i'm not sure what you're getting at about Theory
10:05 < muurkha> phage therapy is still in use, and it's a good example of how the current regulatory regime prevents innovation
10:06 < muurkha> oh, I missed that that was wiki.hackerspaces.org
10:06 < muurkha> because I hadn't followed the link
10:06 < fenn> sorry, it's a lot easier to paste a link than it is to read it
10:07 < muurkha> sorry
10:07 < muurkha> anyway I think it would be more reasonable to say that the "invasion of identity politics into technology" is more like western action against Sinitic society
10:08 < fenn> "in 1999 the FDA rejected the application because pexiganan was not better than standard treatments"
10:08 < fenn> dumb reason to reject a drug imho
10:08 < muurkha> (yeah, I think that's very damning)
10:09 < fenn> in my understanding, critical theory begat modern identity politics
10:10 < muurkha> not sure the Cultural Revolution had much to do with the Frankfurt School
10:10 < fenn> they're both nominally communist right?
10:10 < muurkha> except insofar as both sprang from Marxism, but so did all of modern economics
10:10  * fenn shrugs
10:11 < muurkha> how would we describe modern society?  a paper-money economy where people buy mass-produced products largely made with fossil fuels, governed by a bureaucracy whose members are selected by standardized tests for which people prepare through long years of schooling
10:11 < fenn> i do think the communists are much better at ideological warfare than any other faction
10:12 < muurkha> with mass information dissemination through the printing press
10:12 < muurkha> but actually all of that is Song China
10:13 < fenn> .wik unrestricted warfare
10:13 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_warfare gave 404 | Searched en for 'unrestricted warfare' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
10:13 < fenn> come on saxo!
10:13 < muurkha> and I think that intersection between modern society and Song China actually includes many of the most important aspects of modern society
10:13 < fenn> .wik Unrestricted Warfare
10:13 < saxo> "Unrestricted Warfare: Two Air Force Senior Colonels on Scenarios for War and the Operational Art in an Era of Globalization (simplified Chinese: 超限战; traditional Chinese: 超限戰; lit. 'warfare beyond bounds') is a book on military strategy written in 1999 by two [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_Warfare
10:13 < fenn> "Such means include using legal tools (see lawfare) and economic means as leverage over one's opponent and circumvent the need for direct military action."
10:14 < fenn> "The book argues that the primary weakness of the United States in military matters is that the US views revolution in military thought solely in terms of technology."
10:15 < fenn> i think the ideological warfare is still primarily directed and performed by russia, for now
10:15 < muurkha> although admittedly there are some crucial differences from Song China: limited liability corporations, air travel, mass employment due to the mechanization of agriculture, rapid improvements in every aspect of the useful arts
10:16 < fenn> recently there's been a trend of large chinese investments into western media companies, accompanied by the usual censorship and top-down mandatory changes
10:16 < muurkha> oh really?  I hadn't heard about that
10:16 < fenn> it's not "censorship" if your boss's boss tells you, apparently
10:17 < fenn> you'd think the gamergate people would be up in arms about this, but ... crickets
10:17 < muurkha> anyway, I think a great deal of "westernization" or "modernization" is actually restructuring societies into the image of Song-dynasty China
10:18 < fenn> the structure of empires
10:18 < muurkha> lots of empires haven't been structured that way
10:19 < fenn> was it any different in the soviet union?
10:19 < fenn> rome, ottoman, napoleonic
10:19 < fenn> i'm not a big history buff
10:19 < muurkha> it wasn't different in the soviet union, no
10:20 < fenn> i feel like these factors emerge from necessities, and calling it "song china" is just giving too much credit to one particular instance of the pattern
10:21 < muurkha> but none of rome, the ottoman empire, or the napoleonic empire were paper-money economies, reliant on mass production, powered by fossil fuels, and only the napoleonic empire and the late ottoman empire had standardized testing or the printing press
10:21 < fenn> specialization is needed, and because learning can't be directly transferred between humans, long periods of schooling is needed. then you need to filter for higher performing students or else your whole system fails to function
10:21 < muurkha> I think that of the elements I listed above, only the imperial bureaucracy and standardized testing predated the Song
10:22 < muurkha> oh, that's another thing!  the standardized testing tested only functionally useless knowledge
10:22 < muurkha> so you would naively predict that it would be counterproductive in making the whole system function
10:25 < muurkha> anyway, I don't think "ideological warfare" is primarily directed and performed by foreign powers.  I think it's mostly the internally produced dissent that naturally arises in any power structure, since those inevitably involve more or less injustice
10:29 < fenn> interesting that their paper money has images of coins on it
10:29 < fenn> .wik jiaozi_(currency)
10:29 < saxo> "Jiaozi (Chinese: 交子) was a form of promissory note which appeared around the 11th century in the Sichuan capital of Chengdu, China." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiaozi_(currency)
10:30 < muurkha> yeah, it didn't become fiat currency for a century or two IIRC
10:31 < muurkha> the Cultural Revolution can be a highly effective factional conflict strategy
10:32 < fenn> there is a large body of evidence of coordinated online activity by a russian "troll army"
10:32 < muurkha> yes, there is
10:32 < fenn> it's typically very subtle, slowly emphasizing the differences that exist between different segments of population
10:32 < muurkha> also there's evidence of them from things that aren't online activity
10:33 < fenn> i'm not sure about the screeching twitter dogpiles, but it's hard to see that sort of thing happen and not be skeptical
10:33 < muurkha> .wik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades
10:33 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades gave 404 | Searched en for 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian web brigades' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
10:33 < muurkha> oops
10:33 < muurkha> .t
10:33 < saxo> "Russian web brigades, also called Russian trolls or Russian bots are state-sponsored anonymous Internet political commentators and trolls linked to the Government of Russia." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades
10:33 < muurkha> I think screeching Twitter dogpiles are to a great extent just the nature of Twitter
10:34 < fenn> didn't saxo work more reliably than this in the past?
10:34 < muurkha> no, .wik on an URL never worked
10:34 < fenn> was it so sensitive to capitalization?
10:34 < muurkha> yes
10:34 < muurkha> however, .t turning into .wik on a Wikipedia URL is a newish feature
10:35 < fenn> oh i didn't even notice that feature
10:35 < muurkha> previously it would have just said "Russian web brigades - Wikipedia"
10:35 < fenn> i never use .t apparently
10:35 < fenn> ".t" stands for "too clever"
10:35 < muurkha> Twitter was modeled on txtMOB, which was specifically intended as a tool for organizing protests
10:36 < fenn> was there ever a feature where twitter was sent to your phone as SMS/
10:36 < muurkha> yes
10:36 < muurkha> I mean that was the major feature of twitter for the first several years
10:36 < muurkha> I used it to keep in touch with people when I visited the US in 02008
10:36 < muurkha> anyway, it shouldn't be a surprise that organizing protests is what it's best at
10:37 < muurkha> (neither txtMOB nor early twttr had retweets and quote-tweets, though!)
10:38 < muurkha> I mean I'm pretty sure I've talked to Russian trolls on Twitter, I'm not saying they don't exist
10:39 < muurkha> I'm just saying I think they're tapping into a pre-existing potential for dissension
10:40 < fenn> yes retweets are the fuel
10:40 < fenn> for over-unity gain
10:40 < fenn> if you have to manually copy and paste the text yourself, it doesn't snowball, the replication rate is too low
10:40 < muurkha> hmm, I think memetic contagion for witch hunts has been a thing since before the printing press
10:41 < muurkha> but surely Twitter is a more fertile medium for it
10:41 < fenn> .g toxoplasma of rage
10:41 < saxo> https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage/
10:42 < muurkha> .t
10:42 < saxo> The Toxoplasma Of Rage | Slate Star Codex
10:42 < muurkha> and of course the toxoplasma of rage is how family feuds and warfare have worked since before recorded history
10:44 < muurkha> acoup.blog made the amusing point that the walls of Jericho provide evidence that warfare was already ancient millennia before recorded history
10:44 < muurkha> not before the printing press but before cuneiform tablets
10:45 < fenn> or it was a meteor
10:45 < maaku> lsneff: I think we've talked about this before, but I have ADHD and am perscribed stimulant meds
10:45 < fenn> oh, yes, the walls existed, therefore warfare existed
10:45 < muurkha> walls don't stop meteors, fenn
10:45 < maaku> or used to be. i should contact my doc
10:45 < fenn> was jericho before recorded history?
10:45 < muurkha> maaku: when you get around to it.  oh look!  shiny!
10:46 < muurkha> yes
10:46 < muurkha> .wik Jericho
10:46 < saxo> "Jericho (/ˈdʒɛrɪkoʊ/ JERR-ik-oh; Arabic: أريحا‎ Arīḥā [ʔaˈriːħaː] (listen); Hebrew: יְרִיחוֹ‎ Yərīḥō) is a Palestinian city in the West Bank." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho
10:46 < fenn> no, not that jericho
10:46 < muurkha> same Jericho
10:46 < fenn> not really
10:46 < fenn>  Archaeologists have unearthed the remains of more than 20 successive settlements in Jericho, the first of which dates back 11,000 years
10:47 < muurkha> yeah
10:47 < fenn> "The earliest excavated settlement was located at the present-day Tell es-Sultan (or Sultan's Hill), a couple of kilometers from the current city."
10:48 < maaku> muurkha: seroiusly why tf do they make us jump through bureaucratic hoops to get our meds
10:48 < maaku> like without them I'm objectively terrible at that. it's kafkaesque
10:49 < fenn> because some people abuse stimulants
10:50 < fenn> i agree jumping through bureaucratic hoops is an impossible task for someone who needs stimulants to function
10:50 < fenn> like most things, the process was not designed by the users
10:51 < muurkha> because FDA
10:55 < muurkha> maaku: yeah, it's not done to promote our welfare
10:57 < muurkha> I mean I don't want to denigrate the drug abuse problem; drug abuse is a humongous problem.  it has been for millennia, probably since the humans learned to make beer
10:57 < muurkha> but it's not clear that Prohibition was a helpful measure
10:57 < fenn> lol Prohibition was a disaster
10:57 < fenn> fuel for organized crime
10:58 < fenn> teach the general populace that it's fine to break laws
11:01 < jrayhawk> some of that is genetically context dependent; caucasian folks have ~500 generations of genetic normalization towards alcohol consumption, whereas it is clearly much more devastating to e.g. native american populations
11:03 < jrayhawk> some religious caucasian societies are also fine with socially enforced prohibition
11:03 < jrayhawk> people are complicated
11:06 < fenn> i'll just go ahead and lump The War on Drugs into Prohibition
11:06 < fenn> same shit different generation
11:06 < fenn> there are plenty of caucasian alcoholics
11:07 < fenn> and nobody has built a genetic tolerance to amphetamines
11:07 < jrayhawk> ADHD would realistically be gout tolerance
11:07 < fenn> say what?
11:07 < fenn> you skipped a track
11:09 < jrayhawk> https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/04/27/give-yourself-gout-for-fame-and-profit/
11:11 < jrayhawk> (although as a licensed medical professional, he is mandated to blame gout on meat instead of fructose for political reasons)
11:11 < muurkha> is there a plausible reason to blame it on fructose?
11:11 < fenn> Objection, putting words in the mouth of the blogger!
11:12 < muurkha> veal, venison, duck and beer have a lot less fructose than peaches, bananas, papayas, apples, and honey
11:13 < fenn> obviously social class causes gout directly~
11:13 < jrayhawk> https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=gout+fructose+mechanism
11:13 < kanzure> https://aws.amazon.com/machine-learning/trainium/
11:15 < kanzure> (compare to google tpuv3)
11:16 < fenn> "pretreatment with allopurinol prevents the hyperuricemic effect of fructose" "Allopurinol is in the xanthine oxidase inhibitor family of medications." "numerous natural products have been found to inhibit xanthine oxidase in vitro or in model animals (mice, rats). These include three flavonoids that occur in many different fruits and vegetables: kaempferol, myricetin, and quercetin."
11:16 < fenn> (stuff in fancy vegetables)
11:17 < muurkha> hey, this is a dumb question, but isn't this wrong according to the diagram? "In fact, theacrine is just 1,3,7,9-tetramethyl-uric acid"
11:17 < muurkha> three of those methyls are there on caffeine too!
11:17 < muurkha> they just aren't drawn the same way in the diagram
11:18 < muurkha> oh, uh, I guess he didn't say 1,3,7,9-tetramethyl-caffeine
11:18 < fenn> what and what aren't drawn the same way?
11:18 < fenn> ok, disregarding
11:18 < muurkha> the methyls on the caffeine in the diagram are drawn as just lines, while on the theacrine diagram they're spelled out as CH₃
11:19 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Caffeine_vs_Theacrine.png
11:19 < muurkha> theacrine is sort of intermediate between uric acid and caffeine
11:21 < jrayhawk> re: plenty of caucasian alcoholics: not so much as to collapse society, in most cases
11:22 < fenn> well that's an interesting claim, "Additional studies on scientists, medical school students, and high school students showed some degree of association of serum urate with intelligence and excellence of all-round performance, but not with social class of family of origin."
11:22 < jrayhawk> arguably several former soviet countries qualify, though
11:23 < fenn> "it doesn't collapse society" is not an excuse to do the thing
11:23 < muurkha> native american societies were mostly collapsed by militarily aggressive invaders fueled by identity politics
11:23 < jrayhawk> i mean failing to do the thing collapsed the society
11:23 < muurkha> failing to be an alcoholic collapsed society?
11:23 < muurkha> brb, abstaining
11:24 < fenn> failing to enact prohibition in several former soviet countries
11:24 < fenn> allegedly
11:24 < jrayhawk> failing to implement a prohibition is currently crushing quite a lot of native american territories and former soviet nations
11:24 < fenn> perhaps it was the high level corruption and perverse incentives
11:25 < fenn> the native americans were totally screwed since the early 1800s
11:25 < muurkha> I'd say since the early 01500s
11:25 < fenn> current native american society is just the smoldering wreckage of that disaster. you can blame alcohol if you want, but there's plenty of other good reasons
11:25 < muurkha> agreed
11:26 < fenn> not that i'm an expert or anything
11:26 < muurkha> note that throughout Latin America most of the population is Native American and isn't suffering the same degree of societal collapse
11:26  * fenn had read "guns, germs, and steel"
11:27 < fenn> no muurkha that's "Latinx presenting peoples"
11:27 < fenn> or whatever they're calling it now
11:27  * fenn cries
11:27 < muurkha> not ethnically identical to North Americans, of course, and to a significant extent genetically part European
11:28 < muurkha> and African!
11:28 < fenn> i agree "native american" is far too general, like saying "african" as if that were a thing
11:29 < muurkha> not nearly as extreme as saying "African" as if that were a thing
11:29 < jrayhawk> i don't know enough about south and mesoamerican ethnography or genetics to argue anything, there
11:30 < muurkha> certainly nobody would hold up modern Mexican or Peruvian society as a shining example of the best circumstances that the humans can hope to establish, but they aren't anywhere near the same kind of disaster as Pine Ridge
11:32 < fenn> i want to learn more about native american philosophy and history but i don't really know where to begin. supposedly the enlightenment ideals of freedom, democracy, etc. originated in north america and the memes infected french explorers, who returned to europe and some big name Thinkers wrote some books that eventually kicked off the french revolution
11:33 < jrayhawk> that flavinoid xanthine oxidase fructose thing is pretty cool, though. similar to nrf2 upregulation by polyphenols keeping methylglyoxal from glucose metabolism in check.
11:33 < muurkha> I don't think the Great Law of the Haudenosaunee is even available in written form, though I'd be delighted to learn I was wrong
11:34 < muurkha> there's a book called Indian Roots of American Democracy which makes the argument; that might be a good place to begin
11:34 < fenn> the historical timeline would work out at least, so it's plausible
11:34 < fenn> did i get this idea from you?
11:34 < muurkha> maybe
11:35 < muurkha> certainly Willie Nelson, the hippies, Natty Bumppo, historical US coinage, and Hobbes all use the figure of the Native American as a symbol of freedom
11:36 < fenn> i was reading about zia pueblo culture because their sun symbol was randomly on a rocket launch, and went down that rabbit hole a little
11:36 < muurkha> and the great freedom enjoyed by the Native Americans was a consistent theme throughout the colonial-era literature on them
11:45 < fenn> 'Abraham Maslow in his 1943 paper "A Theory of Human Motivation" ... may have been influenced by teachings and philosophy of the Blackfeet tribe, where he spent several weeks prior to writing his influential paper.'
11:45 < fenn> the hierarchy of needs
11:45 < fenn> https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-darkness/201903/original-influences
11:49 < fenn> democracy, equality, and individualism
11:49 < fenn> i used to be able to do a vannevar bush MEMEX style retracing of my link clicking, but now i've gone all incognito because everything breaks otherwise
11:56 < jrayhawk> Breaks?
11:56 < muurkha> you mean the same URLs stop working because paywall?
11:57 < fenn> don't laugh
11:57 < fenn> the URL bar auto complete takes a really long time after years of browsing
11:57 < fenn> even when i don't want to auto-complete it does it anyway
11:58 < fenn> and dillo doesn't maintain link clicked state across sessions
11:59 < fenn> there's just this large mass of historical data that the browser feels like it needs to rummage around in constantly, and it slows everything down to the point where i can't even type in a URL without the letters going all scrambled
12:00 < fenn> now i just have a list of urls in a text file with plain text tags after them, but i don't add to it consistently enough to be very useful
12:00 < streety> can you prune the autocomplete?
12:00 < fenn> you can "clear your history"
12:00 < fenn> i suppose i could try to edit the internal database but i'm not that foolish
12:01 < streety> but I'm sure it's tempting
12:02 < fenn> i do value it for its archaeological reconstruction potential
12:02 < fenn> when digital data is gone, it's really gone
12:02 < fenn> so i save old .cache/google-chrome-beta/whatevers
12:03 < fenn> i have no idea what's in there
12:04 < streety> I've dug around in some of the data firefox saves but have no experience with chrome
12:05 < muurkha> yeah, I have a list of URLs in a text file with plaintext tags too
12:06 < muurkha> at one point I wrote a browser extension to make it easier to append to but then I stopped using it
12:08 < fenn> these days chrome and the web in general is so bloated i can barely even use it on my linux laptop, so i only really use it for buying things on ebay and amazon, logging into my bank, that sort of thing. then i don't ever type any passwords into my windows laptop which is mostly used for watching youtube
12:09 < fenn> i'll do my product research on the windows laptop and then manually type the url into my linux laptop
12:09 < fenn> it's totally stupid
12:09 < muurkha> Firefox removed the ability to retain arbitrary amounts of history years ago
12:09 < muurkha> in order to maintain acceptable performance
12:10 < streety> firefox works well for me on linux - laptop is decent but a few years old now
12:11 < streety> I don't have years of history though
12:19 < fenn> i switched away from firefox to chrome because firefox was a memory hog, but now chrome is a memory hog too. 2GB doesn't go very far anymore
12:20 < fenn> i should probably pick up midori again
12:20 < fenn> (some webkit browser you've probably never heard of)
12:21 < streety> just looking it up now - apparently it has switched from webkitgtk to electron
12:21 < fenn> blegh
12:21 < fenn> nevermind then
12:22 < streety> if memory is an issue, yeah, doesn't look like a solution
12:25 < fenn> "The Blackfoot conceive of reality in the form of a tipi, made up of different levels that converge into each other, so it is easy to see the similarity with Maslow's model."
12:50 < kanzure> .wik PIEZO1
12:50 < saxo> "Piezo1 is a mechanosensitive ion channel protein that in humans is encoded by the gene PIEZO1.  Piezo1 and its close homolog Piezo2 were cloned in 2010, using an siRNA-based screen for mechanosensitive ion channels. /  PIEZO1 (this gene) and PIEZO2 share 47% identity with [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIEZO1
13:19 < lsneff> fenn: the obvious solution is to get more ram
13:20 < fenn> it's maxed out
13:27 < lsneff> at 2GB?
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15:28 < muurkha> so here's an interesting thing.  I was looking at different forms of steel on Metals Depot last night and they're all about US$5-US$10 per kg: angle iron, structural tubing, cold rolled sheet, hot rolled sheet, galvanized
15:28 < muurkha> but locally on MercadoLibre Argentina I found sheet steel for US$1.60/kg, and some of it is even thinner than what Metals Depot has (it's intended for roofing).  do you suppose there's a way to get sheet steel in the US that cheaply?
15:29 < muurkha> I'm thinking in particular for 2-D CNC cutting (laser, plasma, oxy)
15:29 < maaku> fenn: i don't know if it can be considered genetic, but ADHD is pretty much a tolerance to amphetamines
16:19 < muurkha> maaku: I hadn't thought of it that way
16:29 < muurkha> from https://acoup.blog/2021/10/29/collections-fortification-part-i-the-besiegers-playbook/:
16:29 < muurkha> >  At 8000 BC, Jericho’s wall and tower pre-date the earliest writing anywhere (the Kish tablet, c. 3200 BC) by c. 4,800 years. The tower of Jericho was more ancient to the Great Pyramid of Giza (c. 2600 BC), than the Great Pyramid is to us. In short, the problem of walled cities – and taking walled cities – was a very old problem, one which predated writing by thousands of years.
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18:20 -!- sgiath [~sgiath@mail.sgiath.dev] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:03 < kanzure> "Senolytic vaccination improves normal and pathological age-related phenotypes and increases lifespan in progeroid mice" https://www.nature.com/articles/s43587-021-00151-2
19:43 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
22:30 < L29Ah> not on scihub :/
23:20 < maaku> I thought scihub was back to downloading new articles?
23:34 < maaku> well regardless, confirmed it doesn't work for me either
23:36 < L29Ah> .t https://plusnigger.autism.exposed/
23:36 < saxo> +NIGGER License
23:36 < ^ditto> saxo: Error: "NIGGER" is not a valid command.
23:37 < maaku> wat
23:38 < maaku> does saxo try to execute titles?
--- Log closed Tue Dec 14 00:00:00 2021