--- Log opened Tue Dec 14 00:00:00 2021
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02:01 < muurkha> no, apparently ^ditto does
02:01 < muurkha> +help
02:01 < ^ditto> muurkha: Use the 'list' command to list all plugins, and 'list <plugin>' to list all commands in a plugin. To show the help of a command, use 'help <command>'. 
02:01 < muurkha> +list
02:01 < ^ditto> muurkha: Admin, AutoMode, Channel, Config, Misc, Network, NickAuth, NickCapture, Owner, PluginDownloader, RelayNext, User, and Utilities
02:40 < maaku> aaaahhh ok
02:40 < maaku> that makes sense then
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02:56 < maaku> new mathematica version 13.0
02:56 < maaku> (I don't know if anyone else uses that here.)
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03:36 < redlegion> wat
03:37 < redlegion> i guess i should change ^ditto's trigger, since it seems to be caught up in saxo's output
03:46 < redlegion> ;help
03:46 < ^ditto> redlegion: Use the 'list' command to list all plugins, and 'list <plugin>' to list all commands in a plugin. To show the help of a command, use 'help <command>'. 
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04:00 < deltab> or have it ignore commands from another bot
04:02 < deltab> I expect most of saxo's output won't start with + though, so it shouldn't be a problem
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05:17 < lsneff> I use Mathematica all the time
05:17 < lsneff> Will download the new version
05:26 < lsneff> Also, stop being stupidly edgy. A license like that is completely pointless
05:42 < L29Ah> nah, it clearly makes a point
05:44 < lsneff> indeed, not just the point you want it to make
05:46 < L29Ah> can we ever just make a point that we want to make?
06:12 < fenn> some people believe meaning is determined by the listener. they are wrong
06:12  * fenn makes bold philosophical claim
06:31 < fenn> Onlookers were surprised by the emus' ability to sustain injury and keep running. Major Meredith was quoted as saying: "If we had a military division with the bullet-carrying capacity of these birds it would face any army in the world. They could face machine guns with the invulnerability of tanks. They are like Zulus...."
06:45 < L29Ah> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NyEuqcGMaLo/maxresdefault.jpg
06:49 < fenn> i don't get it
06:50 < fenn> is that some kind of bullet resistant enemy?
06:57 < L29Ah> kinda
06:58 < L29Ah> i doubt one can do much with emus except running
06:58 < L29Ah> on a battlefield
07:07 < muurkha> redlegion: it's just that saxo found a page whose title began with a "+"
07:08 < muurkha> redlegion: saxo might find a page whose title begins with a ";" next time
07:12 < fenn> L29Ah: as you pointed out, they can carry bombs
07:12 < fenn> the trick is getting them to run in the direction of the enemy
07:13 < fenn> maybe you can train them to pursue a laser target designator, like the various combat kittens in widespread use throughout armies of the world
07:14 < fenn> (looks at camera) "I'm doing my part!"
07:14 < fenn> Do You Want to Know More?
07:15 < L29Ah> i think a facehugger would do it cheaper than training
07:15 < L29Ah> electronic facehugger
07:15 < fenn> i don't know where to get those?
07:15 < L29Ah> order from china as usual
07:15 < L29Ah> would run android out of the box tho
07:16 < fenn> you mean like google glass?
07:16 < L29Ah> cardboard vr
07:16 < fenn> you'd still have to train them to pursue something
07:16 < fenn> AR goggles was my first thought but it's expensive and unreliable compared to a laser pointer
07:17 < fenn> shoving wires or fiber optics into genetically enfiddled brain cells was my second thought
07:17 < L29Ah> probably you mean: figure what stimulus makes them turn in a predictable manner
07:17 < L29Ah> likely some scary sounds are enough to make them run
07:17 < redlegion> muurkha: ah, well damn.
07:17 < fenn> the second approach is probably not relevant for many types of combatants
07:18 < L29Ah> so scary and less scary images on the displays
07:18 < fenn> i think scary sounds would make them scatter in all directions
07:18 < L29Ah> or HRTF-aware sound
07:18 < fenn> what's HRTF
07:18 < L29Ah> .google HRTF
07:18 < saxo> No result for HRTF
07:18 < L29Ah> +google HRTF
07:20 < fenn> i think it just didn't find anything
07:20 < fenn> .wik Head-related transfer function
07:20 < saxo> "A head-related transfer function (HRTF), also known as anatomical transfer function (ATF),[citation needed]| is a response that characterizes how an ear receives a sound from a point in space." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function
07:21 < fenn> oh, .google is just broken. use .g instead
08:49 < muurkha> ;google HRTF
08:49 < ^ditto> muurkha: Error: "google" is not a valid command.
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10:49 < maaku> redlegion: I don't think changing the trigger fundamentally fixes the problem. the website just happened to have a title that started with '+'
10:50 < maaku> better solution is to have your bot /ignore saxo
11:24 < muurkha> yes, don't listen to saxo!  SAXO LIES
11:27 < fenn> boo saxo go home, and take your cows with you
11:28 < fenn> actually saxo and emmynoether are the best behaved bots i've ever seen
11:29 < muurkha> .t https://is.gd/jXM51z
11:29 < saxo> ;title https://is.gd/cQgY3e
11:29 < ^ditto> saxo: .t https://is.gd/jXM51z
11:30 < muurkha> saxo: .t https://is.gd/jXM51z
11:30 < muurkha> saxo: .t https://is.gd/jXM51zx
11:30 < muurkha> .t https://is.gd/jXM51zx
11:30 < saxo> is.gd - Shortened URL
11:31 < muurkha> heh, defeated
11:31 < maaku> nice
11:32 < maaku> I was tempted to put up a set up recursive links which reference each other using .t and ;title, but I controlled myself
11:33 < muurkha> heh, it's good that you have the impulse control I lack
11:36 < fenn> well behaved bots and badly behaved humans. it's time for MOTHER to take control of the situation
11:37 < fenn> do we have a "days until extinction level event" counter yet
11:38 < fenn> using only the finest, hand-crafted, artisanal bayesian analysis
11:39 < muurkha> you know, it's been less than 24 hours since my comment scraper got blocked from scraping my comments on HN because of making too many requests per second
11:40 < muurkha> maybe I need to be more careful about things that could spin out of control?
11:41 < fenn> if you're actually building self replicating systems, please take a moment to consider how it could go wrong and implement some safeguards
11:42 < fenn> assume that someone dumber and less careful will get a hold of the technology and abuse it
11:44 < fenn> not just one maximum replication counter, but several with gradually increasing maximums, to limit the impact and draw attention to the failure of the first N counters
11:44 < muurkha> I am not actually building self replicating systems
11:44 < muurkha> but yeah, the Morris Worm definitely came to mind just now
11:45 < fenn> you don't want to get into a "challenger" situation where you have managers saying "it's ok, we have redundant backups" even though the first layer of redundancy has already failed and there is effectively no redundancy anymore
11:45 < muurkha> yup
11:45 < fenn> failing spectacularly helps avoid this somewhat
11:45 < muurkha> I don't think that's as much of a concern as many people do though
11:45 < muurkha> I mean GCC and Linux are capable of replicating themselves
11:45 < fenn> it's hard to test redundant backups in practice
11:46 < fenn> GCC may be capable of replication, but how many actually do it
11:46 < fenn> much easier to just copy some bits
11:46 < muurkha> this hasn't been much of a problem in practice, yeah
11:46 < muurkha> there do exist boot disk images that will use Casper or whatever to noninteractively install a fresh Linux image on the hard disk of the computer they're booted on
11:47 < muurkha> but people use them rarely enough that catastrophic data loss to them is unusual
11:47 < muurkha> (or Dolly)
11:47 < fenn> what's the use case for "i'm too lazy to press enter"
11:47 < muurkha> no keyboard
11:48 < fenn> The Enemy Cannot Press The Button If He Has No Hand
11:48 < muurkha> or, 32 keyboards, and you don't want to be running back and forth between all the computers in the room to see which one is waiting for you to press Enter for the fifth time
11:48 < muurkha> dban has a similar use case
11:48 < muurkha> but I was also thinking of how I got the test on the return value of fork() backwards the first time I wrote a program using fork()
11:48 < muurkha> on the departmental NFS server
11:48 < muurkha> with no process count ulimit
11:49 < fenn> you'd think there would be a sane default limit for that particular failure mode
11:49 < muurkha> that's how I learned that SunOS kernel NFS keeps working even fine when the userland of the machine is totally screwed
11:49 < muurkha> Unix isn't really about "sane default limits for failure modes".  cf. rm
11:50 < fenn> there's no reason to spawn more concurrent processes than you are able to actually run
11:50 < muurkha> what do you mean?
11:51 < muurkha> strong protection against accidental mutation (e.g., SHA-256), pacifism, and large granularity ought to be other helpful protections against out-of-control replication.  Mark Tilden liked to say that his definition of "artificial life" was that it dies when you step on it
11:51 < fenn> say your processes are in some lookup table that has a max of 65535 total processes. why would you ever spawn 1000000000 concurrent processes?
11:51 < muurkha> oh, you can't, most of those fork() calls fail
11:51 < fenn> exactly
11:52 < fenn> but why limit it to 65535 instead of, say, 60,000
11:52 < muurkha> agreed
11:52 < fenn> then you would have some readroom for running the non-malfunctioning processes, which is probably what you wanted anyway
11:52 < muurkha> the machine would have been slow then but probably my supervisor could have logged in instead of powercycling it
11:53 < muurkha> fortunately I don't think the department lost any data even though SunOS 4 very much did not have a journaled filesystem
11:54 < muurkha> anyway, in general there should be sane default resource limits on things
11:55 < muurkha> when you turn on a light or a microwave oven or a thruster, there should be a timer that will eventually turn it off, even if the control system that was going to turn it off fails
11:56 < fenn> hmm
11:56 < muurkha> you should have replication limits set by default, which you can change for special cases
11:56 < fenn> it's hard to expose the existence of the timer to the user
11:57 < muurkha> microwave ovens conventionally use a twist dial and a bell
11:57 < fenn> lol yeah right
11:57 < fenn> they are all membrane keypad hell
11:57 < muurkha> I mean, modern microwave ovens use shittier interfaces, but you can still get super cheap ones that work that way
11:58 < fenn> when you open the microwave oven, a light comes on to help you see. does that also have a timer? how do you know how long it will stay on?
11:58 < muurkha> it doesn't, but that's because microwave ovens are designed on the principle of unlimited free energy ;)
11:58 < muurkha> they only have a timer to keep them from setting your house on fire
11:59 < fenn> there are thermal fuses inside the components
11:59 < muurkha> yes
11:59 < muurkha> and in between them
11:59 < muurkha> usually
11:59 < fenn> the timer is mostly to not overcook the food
12:00 < muurkha> but in for example a satellite leaving a light on during the dark half of the orbit can deplete your battery, damaging it
12:00 < fenn> i'm sure everyone has had the experience of the car door being left ajar, the light staying on all night and draining the battery, and then the car won't start. a potentially life-threatening situation, depending on circumstances. and yet somehow this hasn't been fixed in the vast majority of cars, despite it being a known issue for literally many decades
12:00 < muurkha> and leaving a heating element turned on can destroy part or all of the satellite
12:00 < muurkha> yeah, that's another good example, though in the usual case it's much less serious than destroying a US$2M satellite
12:01 < fenn> $2M is a cheap satellite
12:01 < fenn> more like $200M
12:02 < fenn> they are getting cheaper, but bureaucracy likes things slow and overpriced
12:02 < fenn> a starlink satellite supposedly costs $500k
12:03 < fenn> something like that
12:03 < fenn> they were aiming for $200k marginal cost
12:07 < fenn> https://i.imgur.com/vuImFVi.jpg
12:07 < fenn> (the reference, if you didn't catch it)
14:00 < kanzure> .title https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03659-0
14:00 < saxo> What Sci-Hub’s latest court battle means for research
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17:47 < maaku> fenn: well, I sincerely doubt a little overhead led light in a car is going to drain a modern car battery overnight, without even considering the massive batteries in hybrids and electric cars
18:01 < muurkha> I worked at a company that had US$2M satellites, though
18:02 < muurkha> and there were a couple of times where a control system failed and left something turned on
18:04 < maaku> well space hardware is natoriously energy constrained due to mass limits
18:04 < maaku> *mass limits and issues with radiating heat
18:05 < muurkha> yeah, if we'd had an unlimited amount of mass to spend on solar panels and batteries, it wouldn't've been a problem
21:10 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Salina_Turda_(panorama),_Cluj,_RO.jpg
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--- Log closed Wed Dec 15 00:00:01 2021