--- Log opened Tue Dec 28 00:00:13 2021
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07:21 < lsneff> I decided I’m finally going to go get an adhd diagnosis
07:22 < L29Ah> [amphetamine craving sounds]
07:27 < kanzure> cool, let us know
07:27 < docl> probably a good idea, hope it goes well
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09:42 < docl> I'm taking an online assessment now for adhd... just realized it's the end of the year so probably save money on insurance to do it now
10:28 < jrayhawk> In the U.S., the emergency authorization to use remote assessments for schedule II prescriptions has made that cheap for everyone.
10:28 < jrayhawk> Lockdowns have streamlined a few industries a bit.
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12:25 < muurkha> docl: thank you!
12:25 < muurkha> superkuh: no apology needed, thank you too!
12:32 < muurkha> docl: the 180 g/m³ really is g/m³, not /m².  you can theoretically make the aerographite backing any thickness down to a few microns and thus get very low areal densities like 2 mg/m², but I've calculated based on the assumption that the photocathode material on top of it needs to be a continuous layer
12:42 < muurkha> btw I found an error that puts the efficiency numbers too high by about a factor of 1–4, pushing in a bit
12:44 < muurkha> lsneff: the great difficulty with CPU design is not HDL but the expense of getting access to modern process nodes
12:45 < muurkha> and sticking with the project for enough several-month-long iterations to get a working machine, typically for reasons that have to do with pushing the analog limits
12:46 < muurkha> lsneff: right, if the anode is just as hot as the cathode, you won't have a net thermionic current
12:50 < muurkha> docl: if you put your block of graphite near a nearby grate and put the graphite at -5V relative to the grate, then surely you can get a current.  the problem (for photoelectric or thermionic power) is that because the electrons are going from a more negative voltage to a more positive one, the device is an energy sink, not an energy source.  you can use it as a light detector (like photocathodes in 
12:50 < muurkha> photomultiplier tubes or ordinary old-style phototubes) or as a thermometer, but not a power source
12:53 < muurkha> bbrittain: we aren't doing geoengineering yet because (a) it will make the planet uninhabitable if done wrong and (b) it's very expensive and the existing economy doesn't provide an incentive to do it; whatever country decides to do geoengineering today will impoverish itself and enrich its neighbors until they invade it
12:53 < docl> muurkha: yes, 180 g/m^3 is right but further down you list the areal density as 2 g/m^3 which is where I think it's a type
12:53 < docl> *typo
12:53 < muurkha> so essentially the problem is political
12:55 < docl> muurkha: what if you put it at 4V and shine photons with 1eV on it?
12:55 < muurkha> oh shit, is darsie still K-lined?
12:56 < muurkha> if you put graphite at +4V or -4V?
12:56 < muurkha> oh, thanks!
12:58 < muurkha> I think 1400W/m² is 4200MW/3km², which is neither the 3MW I had nor the 1400MW you suggested, but closer to the latter
13:00 < muurkha> pushed corrections
13:05 < docl> looks like it says "a km²" for 4200MW?
13:07 < muurkha> oops, fixed
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13:14 < bbrittain> muurkha: I think the planet is being made uninhabitable already, that seems like a weird place to draw the line of what sort of change we are allowed to exert
13:15 < bbrittain> and it's not really that expensive, that's kinda the whole point when people say it's a "moral hazard"
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13:16 < muurkha> yes, the planet is being made uninhabitable already!
13:16 < muurkha> and it's true that it's probably not expensive enough to make it infeasible
13:18 < muurkha> but the proposals I've seen are still in the tens of billions of dollars per year range, I think?  so, not something you can run on voluntary donations
13:20 < muurkha> wrt the "engineering problem vs. political problem" question in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27663968, I think there are clearly engineering approaches that will clearly work if they are applied; it's not a field plagued with the sort of unknowns fusion power has
13:21 < muurkha> the reason they aren't being applied is that nobody is paying for them and some promising approaches are being actively prohibited (e.g., ocean fertilization, which is not in the category of "will clearly work" but yes in the category of "would probably work", and would solve acidification too) 
13:23 < muurkha> and those are basically political problems.  it's not that nobody knows how to solve climate change, it's that the system punishes whoever decides to spend their life working on it instead of cow clickers or pervasive surveillance software
13:26 < muurkha> bbrittain: I'm interested to hear what you think about my super low tech proposal in https://is.gd/caco3capture
13:28 < muurkha> the "moral hazard" argument is that burning fossil fuels plus geoengineering might be cheaper than switching to renewables, which would slow the renewable transition, and at least right now I think that isn't true.  but it could be true.  for it to be true, though, the cost of palliative geoengineering could still be in the trillions of dollars per year
13:30 < muurkha> at the above link (archived at https://archive.fo/Jd24z) I estimate that soda-lime atmospheric carbon capture ought to cost under US$100 per tonne of CO₂
13:31 < muurkha> dominated by energy cost, so as the renewable transition drops energy prices further, it should get cheaper
13:33 < muurkha> Climeworks is apparently charging US$1000 today
13:34 < bbrittain> ya, all the existing work is in the 10b for full mitigation
13:34 < bbrittain> where full mitigation really just means "solar mitigation"
13:35 < bbrittain> which does not include things like ocean acidification
13:35 < muurkha> right
13:35 < bbrittain> looking at the links now
13:37 < muurkha> see, I think n×US$10B/year (US$70B/year as in my low-tech proposal) is a high enough price tag that any government that decides to undertake it unilaterally will be at risk of being toppled by the consequences, much less individual nonprofits or high-net-worth individuals
13:37 < muurkha> which makes it a political problem
13:38 < muurkha> if we can drop the cost to n×US$0.1B/year (by engineering) then we could make it no longer a political problem
13:39 < bbrittain> I also agree that we need to make it cheaper
13:39 < bbrittain> I've actually been emailing a few people in the field asking if anyone is tackling this
13:39 < bbrittain> and it doesn't seem so
13:39 < bbrittain> most people in the academia world working on this seem to be more policy facing than anything
13:40 < bbrittain> like "if we just solve the policy problem the implementation will be trivial"
13:40 < bbrittain> it's kinda enraging 
13:40 < bbrittain> still digesting your hn post
13:45 < muurkha> people who do policy work and management are accustomed to execution being just a matter of spending enough money and monitoring performance
13:46 < bbrittain> hah, fair enough
13:47 < bbrittain> I'd love to find some sort of way to break into working on this kind of stuff
13:48 < bbrittain> bad overlap skillset wise though being a software engineer
13:48 < bbrittain> totally lack the credentials
13:49 < bbrittain> and there is no way I'm going back to uni for a degree in geochemistry or something
13:55 < docl> ok I've finally finished the adhd assessment... holy crap that was over 4 hours
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14:12 < lsneff> So, do you have adhd?
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15:07 < muurkha> I mean, I think the approach I outlined in my post *is* a thing that you could do just by spending enough money.  it's a reasonably straightforward thing to do.  so in that sense if we could "just solve the policy problem" so that people would make money instead of losing money by doing it, it would be "trivial"
15:07 < muurkha> but it's entirely likely that doing more scientific and engineering exploration of the space we might find something that 100× or 1000× more efficient
16:29 < kanzure> docl: did you know it's possible to cheat on that test
16:29 < kanzure> not that you need to...
16:34 < docl> it had a bunch of essay questions
16:34 < docl> ugh, just glad its over
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17:23 < L29Ah> 00:16:44]<muurkha> yes, the planet is being made uninhabitable already!
17:23 < L29Ah> check your equatorial privileges
17:23 < L29Ah> you latitudist scum
17:24 < cc0> ah, so this is where #sl4 is now
17:27 < muurkha> heh
17:39 < kanzure> cc0: correct
17:39 < kanzure> cc0: although we have less yudkowskyism
18:11 < kanzure> huh it's still up http://sl4.org/
18:14 < kanzure>  was only able to rescue a little bit of the logs https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/extropians/irclogs/sl4.log
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21:07 < lsneff> yudkowskyism is one reason I avoid less wrong
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23:50 < nsh> +1
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--- Log closed Wed Dec 29 00:00:14 2021