--- Log opened Tue Feb 01 00:00:46 2022
00:22 < maaku> nmz787_: Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google
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04:33 < fltrz> kanzure: I am reading about polygraphs for lying detection. I am designing a small protocol such that an individual can challenge and cryptographically prove to a group who non-interactively observes, that a specific lying detector does not work.
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04:48 < fltrz> the first rough sketch (still improving), was as follows: an algorithm maps a a hash function to a predetermined set of stories: an example "I am a baseball player, and I did murder my ex" or "I am a baseball player and I did not murder my ex" the binary choice is determined by a hash function, every month the manufacturer of the lie detector updates a signed hash, this is concatenated with the secret 
04:48 < fltrz> random nonce of the challenger (so that the challenger can not choose which stories end up true or false), this secret result determines (in the bits of the hash) which of the 2 versions of each story is in fact correct. Since the claimant of the lie detector does not know which version the challenger memorized they must resort to their own devices. Then, when the operator / manufacturer of the lie 
04:48 < fltrz> detector has made a timely prediction for each of the N stories, they sign their predictions and send it to the group (such that they can verify the results of the test, even if they were only aware the test happened much later than it happened). After the challenger cas verified their signed prediction, the challenger signs in turn, and then the next round is for testing if the challenger can prove 
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04:48 < fltrz> he still knows what he suppesedly did or didnt do for each story. The reason the operator/manufacturer of the specific lie detector should make the predictions in a timely fashion is as follows: such that the operator/manufacturer doesnt claim the challenger only studied the stories in the days after the test.
04:49 < fltrz> the goal of the protocol is such that a group of later 'observers' can read and cryptographically verify that a challenger passed the lie detector, i.e. the lie detector was uncorrelated witht the correct story.
04:51 < fltrz> theres been plenty of research articles in the psychology departments claiming lie detection, and then theres the crisis in reproducibility in psychology in general, so how does a nation or security agency weed out the proper lie detection setups from the improper ones? it needs a protocol to guarantee the experimenter is not lying and falsifying results to the higher ups
04:52 < fltrz> it could put up a bounty for civilians to come and try pass the test
04:53 < fltrz> and if the higher ups of the security agency or nation insist the candidate experimenters or lie detectors follow a cryptographically secure protocol, then it knows its not buying snake oil
04:56 < fltrz> perhaps it may be better to choose stories that do not involve the self "I am a ... and did / did not..." but rather a close relative / acquaintance / ... In this way it doesn't just feel generally weird that the challenger claims to have done something wrong.
04:57 < fltrz> Usually the prisoners dilemma is used to prevent that.
04:59 < fltrz> when a challenger is discovered that succeeds in passing (invalidating the lie detector, or at least the current version) this person can be added to a pool to test future lie detectors (by other manufacturer or new version by the same manufacturer)
05:00 < fltrz> however it is paramount that the challenger can generate his keys in private. When the same challenger is used you need to refresh the list of stories, or previous study will confuse the challenger)
05:04 < fltrz> since one can not prove that a lie detector works (the challenger might intentionally reveal his secrets), but one can only prove that a challenger succeeded in bypassing the detector, it seems like this can't be used to prove that a detector works when it in fact works,... but it can be demonstrated that no challenger has succeeded in passing the test (assuming no one is barred from giving it a try).
05:21 < fltrz> one problem is of course that cryptographically verifiable evidence that a lie detector doesn't work incentivizes preventing the challenger from walking away with the lie detector's signature demonstrating it didn't work
05:23 < fltrz> the challenger could refuse to execute the second half (demontrating he has memorized the "true" versions) until the lie detectors signed message is signed in turn by say a smart contract, or trusted acquaintance of the challenger
05:24 < fltrz> I honestly do not care if lie detectors work or don't but I do care that society is not misled in case they don't
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08:10 < kanzure> fltrz: for explaining hash functions i often use an example of a guess-the-number game where the host of the game commits upfront to the number (and a nonce..) that the other players have to guess, and then they share the hash before the guessing begins. this could be combined with a polygraph test if you want.
08:11 < kanzure> s/nonce/salt
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09:13 < fltrz> yes, thats the usual commitment scheme, but it's a bit trickier to design a protocol to convince third parties that a polygraph test was beaten
09:16 < fltrz> also we don't want to give the challenger the freedom to choose the stories freely (he could then make the stories conform to a pattern that is easy to remember, whereas he would then be remembering the pattern instead of the stories)
09:22 < fltrz> kanzure: its just that currently the literature on lie detection forces the reader to blindly believe the experimenter that what happened happened, and he might outright fabricate the data, knowingly introduce sidechannels, or unknowingly introduce sidechannels, or introduce sidechannels with plausible deniability. Consider a test where the subjects have to decide a prisoners dilemma being presented 
09:22 < fltrz> with a picture of the counterparty, and must decide to defect or persist. The picture is taken at the same time the user clicks the button. However such pictures may betray if the eyes are looking more to the left or to the right (or up vs down)...
09:27 < streety> kanzure: would it be best to view it more as a historical document reflecting views from 2014 or is there a need for a living document that is maintained and kept relevant? 
09:28 < streety> I took a brief look at it and although I don't think there was anything outright wrong quite a few of the proposals did seem dated.
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13:37 < kanzure> "Clinical course of the longest-lived man in the world: A case report" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0531556521004617
13:37 < kanzure> fltrz: can you do the same for a truth serum
13:37 < kanzure> streety: i think updating it would be useful, at some point
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15:14 < L29Ah> the oldest man died because of transhumanism refusal
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15:56 < maaku> ?
16:28 < fltrz> kanzure: as I said, its inherently impossible to design a protocol that proves that lie detectors (or truth sera) work; what is possible however is finding a counterexample of an individual that can disprove that it works, on the condition that the protocol is respected (the individual can generate, store private nonces, keys, ... and generate and study the textual equivalents in general, if no 
16:28 < fltrz> individual is barred from attempting to challenge the detector, etc...
16:32 < fltrz> for example if the operators succeed in convincing to give up the location of his private keys, nonces, ... under threat of harming or harassing the family of close ones; then the challenger can be convinced to abandon correct execution of the protocol. However if a prize is attached, and if say all high school students are drilled in understanding the protocol and the implications of each step, and 
16:32 < fltrz> if the monetary reward is sufficient (i.e. the public at large is encouraged to have tried this, and is free to try multiple times); then the public at large will discover that the detector can be bypassed.
16:34 < fltrz> so either they 'torture' a large segment of the population to keep up the illusion that a non-working lie detector works (but then many of these students will observe violations of the protocol in person), OR the public discovers that it doesn't work.
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16:36 < fltrz> i.e. a nation or security agency can never prove to itself that the lie detector works, but IF protocol is followed they can eliminate the charlatans with their bullshit methods
16:39 < fltrz> just like physicists can not prove their postulates exact, or just like mathematicians can not prove their axioms, we CAN calculate likelihoods, so if the population / nation / security agency keeps track of who bypassed previous tyoes of lie detector, they can invite (pay) them to try and pass the next type or version
16:42 < fltrz> the goal of the protocol is to make it simple for a population / nation / security agency to apply the protocol as a minimal, inspectable open-source tool, so that one doesn't need to be familiar with the claims of the psychologist nor be familiar with the neurological details in order to verify that someone succeeded in bypassing the lie detector
16:43 < fltrz> the protocol would precisely limit the lie detector / experimentors degrees of freedom such that they can't cheat (outright fabricate or subtle sidechannel, like eye gaze in prisoners dilemma) the challenge
16:50 < fltrz> observe that you can't average the results of all challengers, just like you can't try out goldbachs conjecture on a large list of numbers and conclude the theorem is valid, only one counterexample suffices to disprove the theorem. With the lie detector the situation is a bit different because a challenger who can not in fact succeed bypassing may nonetheless be lucky by pure chance, however with ~100 
16:50 < fltrz> 1-or-2 sentence stories that the challenger got lucky drops rapidly
16:51 < fltrz> "~ roughly 100 1-or-2-sentence stories"
17:19 < fltrz> observe that if say the truth serum simply causes the subject to be mortially terrified, he may start cooperating with whatever the operators of the lie detector wants (bypassing the protocol), but that is just a return to the Inquisition with the corresponding false confessions...
17:24 < fltrz> so ideally any subgroup of the nation / security agency / ... should be allowed to install their own cameras (so they can trust their own camera) and livestreamed the session (without interruption the actual lie detection phase, the prediction resuls phase, following signing fase, the challenger proving he actually knows the "true" answers phase, ...
17:26 < fltrz> so if there is internal disagreement among say NSA, then multiple branches, or multiple factions, or multiple individuals with sortition, can have their own camera setup installed
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--- Log closed Wed Feb 02 00:00:47 2022