--- Log opened Thu Feb 17 00:00:01 2022
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02:03 < Llamamoe> muurkha: My "assertion" is actually me being trans and having discussed this very topic in trans spaces dozens of times. Most trans people don't want to erase their identity even if it brings them misery.
02:04 < Llamamoe> nmz787_: The studies I've seen suggest that rates of regret in people who want to go on hormone blockers or hormone therapy before puberty arrreeee..... basically close enough to zero as to make no difference. 
02:07 < Llamamoe> And whatever it is that goes wrong with gender identity neurologically, it has been pretty conclusively studied to suggest that it is present from early life, and 100% resistant to any psychological or pharmacological treatment known so far 
02:09 < L29Ah> http://bitcheese.net/world-domination-plans/gender yay new page
02:09 < gordon1> and i assume regret rate for not going to therapy is higher in control group?
02:12 < Llamamoe> L29Ah: Kind of a tempting conclusion, but while gender expression is based on sociocultural context, gender identity is for all intents and purposes intrinsic and unalterable in both cis and trans people
02:13 < Llamamoe> gordon1: Generally, gender dysphoria or the desire to transition do not go away, ever. Unfortunately. It's possible to cope, but not really be happy. 
02:13 < gordon1> ok
02:13 < gordon1> makes sense
02:13 < L29Ah> gender by definition is about expression, as you can't objectively measure anything else
02:14 < L29Ah> including gender dysphoria
02:14 < L29Ah> so you're talking culturology at best, not physiology
02:15 < Llamamoe> There's been preliminary studies demonstrating e.g. consistent alterations in brain networks related to body ownership and self-perception, as well as lots of correlates of varying strength 
02:20 < Llamamoe> Either way, there's only so much "protecting people from their own ability to make decisions" that you can justify, especially when it's applied almost exclusively to discriminated-against groups of people 
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05:11 < L29Ah> superkuh: i finally got a hold of my oscilloscope and must say the code is shit, don't use, sorry (:
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06:49 < superkuh> Alright. Fun to get the fl2k stuff set up again regardless.
07:19 < muurkha> nmz787_: hormone blockers to postpone puberty seem like a relatively low-risk course of action
07:20 < muurkha> (I wonder if you could get a general improvement in intelligence by offering that therapy broadly?)
08:33 < muurkha> .to lsneff you may be interested in https://hci.cs.uni-saarland.de/projects/print-a-sketch/
08:33 < saxo> Okay, I'll pass that message along to lsneff
08:33 < muurkha> .to lsneff https://hci.cs.uni-saarland.de/wp-content/uploads/projects/digital_fabrication_technologies/Print-A-Sketch/Pourjafarian_CHI22_Print-A-Sketch.pdf
08:33 < saxo> Okay, I'll pass that message along to lsneff
08:35 < muurkha> .to lsneff they said they used a Xaar 128 piezoelectric printhead, "approx. 220-240$", with off-the-shelf nanosilver ink (MetalonⓇ JS-A102A from Novacentrix)
08:35 < saxo> Okay, I'll pass that message along to lsneff
08:42 < lsneff> Thanks
08:42 < saxo> lsneff: <muurkha> you may be interested in https://hci.cs.uni-saarland.de/projects/print-a-sketch/
08:42 < saxo> lsneff: <muurkha> https://hci.cs.uni-saarland.de/wp-content/uploads/projects/digital_fabrication_technologies/Print-A-Sketch/Pourjafarian_CHI22_Print-A-Sketch.pdf
08:42 < saxo> lsneff: <muurkha> they said they used a Xaar 128 piezoelectric printhead, "approx. 220-240$", with off-the-shelf nanosilver ink (MetalonⓇ JS-A102A from Novacentrix)
08:42 < lsneff> You can just tag me instead
08:43 < lsneff> I’m not sure the point of .to
08:44 < muurkha> so that if you aren't online you see it
08:44 < muurkha> including if your laptop went to sleep and the IRC server just hasn't timed out the TCP connection yet
08:45 < lsneff> So, it fires when they come back online?
08:45 < muurkha> when they say something
08:45 < muurkha> which is a good indication that they're really there
08:45 < muurkha> of course it could be someone else using the nick but that's a much rarer problem
08:47 < lsneff> I see
08:47 < lsneff> I bounce irc through matrix, so I always get nick tags
08:49 < lsneff> I will look at those links, thank you
08:50 < lsneff> I don’t think Xaar was happy with the idea of an open source printer
09:01 < muurkha> huh, really?
09:02 < lsneff> Yeah, I had a short conversation over email with a representative of some sort and after I mentioned open-source, they never got back to me
09:02 < lsneff> I think they have some moronic idea about protecting their IP
09:08 < muurkha> maybe they misinterpreted, or maybe they've had bad experiences in the past
09:12 < lsneff> Perhaps
09:23 < lsneff> I emailed them again just now and they did reply. It seems that most Xaar printheads are not compatible with UV-sensitive inks (I would assume because of the viscosity) and they’d recommend their Nitrox line, but I quote, “this is quite expensive compared to the Irix”.
09:25 < lsneff> Yeah, looks like the nitrox is on the order of 10k
09:25 < lsneff> Ridiculous
09:32 < nmz787_> muurkha: I'm pretty sure the only trans treatments I've heard of are hormone supplementation
09:32 < lsneff> This industry desperately needs disruption
09:34 < nmz787_> lsneff: my guess is they read "open-source" as "i'm not going to bring you much/any business, and might in fact just be wasting your time"
09:36 < lsneff> They seem willing to sell to me now, just the prices are ridiculous
09:38 < nmz787_> well clearly the xaar 128 worked for conductive ink, and I see "buy it now" for $299
09:40 < nmz787_> some good comments from the/one author https://hackaday.com/2022/02/15/print-a-sketch-turns-any-surface-into-a-printed-circuit-board/
09:40 < nmz787_> "Lines are short, because the conductive ink is not super easy to get a hold of, so we didn’t want to waste any."
09:42 < lsneff> The conductive ink isn’t the issue, UV-sensitive ink is.
09:42 < lsneff> It’s more viscous than other inks
09:43 < nmz787_> well, they already make cheap 3d printers for that
09:44 < lsneff> SLA printers? What do those have to do with this?
10:00 < nmz787_> hybrid approach, obv
10:10 < muurkha> nmz787_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker
11:12 < superkuh> There are a lot of odd jump cuts in that video as gde commented in the HaD thread.
11:21 < lsneff> nmz787_: I’ve thought about that before, and haven’t found a good way to make that work, aside from printing like a bunch of slices on an sla printer, and then gluing them together, which defeats the purpose
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14:53 < nmz787_> lsneff: I could imagine something with combined metal inkjet plus some sort of FDM-like liquid dispensing and UV curing (much more coarse resolution than traditional SLA, since it's just gotta be mechanical)
15:02 < maaku> lsneff: this seems up your alley: https://github.com/hannobraun/Fornjot
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17:49 < lsneff> nmz787_: I’ll think about that
17:49 < lsneff> maaku: Yep, I saw that a little while ago and actually talked to the author
18:46 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=55a35592 Bryan Bishop: transcript: socratic seminar 25 >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/austin-bitcoin-developers/2022-02-17-socratic-seminar-25.txt
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 18 00:00:02 2022