--- Log opened Tue Mar 08 00:00:19 2022
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02:13 < maaku> lsneff: I suspect you will remain employable regardless
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03:53 < jrayhawk> .title https://www.zdnet.com/article/open-source-zone-grinds-away-at-patent-trolls/
03:53 < saxo> Open Source Zone grinds away at patent trolls | ZDNet
05:40 < muurkha> not literally, unfortunately
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08:56 < lsneff> I’m very curious to see what will happen as gas prices continue to rise
08:58 < muurkha> we certainly live in interesting times
08:58 < lsneff> I kind of unironically think that gas should be very expensive, but I don’t think the infrastructure to deal with that exists yet
08:59 < muurkha> a huge gas and oil shock to most of Europe, Switzerland abandoning neutrality, a quarter of the world's wheat exports cut off, and the second-biggest nuclear power backed into a corner and threatening in not very veiled terms to push the button
09:01 < lsneff> Sounds like a typical once-in-lifetime event that millennials and younger have experienced every 5 years
09:01 < muurkha> oh and now unrelated countries can just confiscate your property if the country you're from goes to war
09:02 < muurkha> no, the last time something like this happened was 01914 or maybe 01929.  and Switzerland didn't abandon neutrality that time
09:02 < muurkha> this is a lot bigger than 9/11 or the 02008 crisis
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09:04 < muurkha> or, probably, Germany and Russia splitting up Poland in 01939.  though we'll see
09:08 < kanzure> how did international property rights work back then? if you're at war with someone do citizens get to confiscate property or is that reserved for government?
09:08 < muurkha> well, countries that are at war have always done all kinds of random things with very few limits
09:09 < muurkha> what's novel here is that countries that aren't at war, like Germany and France, are going around confiscating yachts
09:10 < muurkha> not to mention central bank reserves — though at least in theory those are only frozen rather than confiscated, and there's precedent for that in the case of Iran
09:10 < muurkha> though, again, only in the last few years
09:13 < muurkha> the Arab Spring was a pretty big deal but it didn't involve the rest of the world to the same degree: no energy crisis (!), no sudden collapse in staple staff-of-life food exports like wheat, no cascading beggar-thy-neighbor export controls on those foods like we're seeing, no credible threats of global thermonuclear war
09:14 < muurkha> it included ideological censorship throughout the Middle East, but this time we're seeing ideological censorship throughout the developed world
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11:05 < nmz787_> lsneff: you feel like you've experienced a few once-in-a-lifetime events lately? I'm not sure I've felt that way, and I guess some folks figure I'm a millenial ('87 born)
11:06 < lsneff> I do feel like that, but it's a subjective feeling, not one strongly supported by facts
11:06 < nmz787_> for me once-in-a-lifetime events are like, your first love, or something
11:07 < xaete[m]> perhaps its less so "once in a lifetime" and more [because of the end of history we assume that these events are] "once in a lifetime"
11:07 < xaete[m]> stuff like pandemics and two european nations openly at war with each other
11:07 < nmz787_> war seems like it's been pretty consistent in some part of the world or another
11:08 < nmz787_> Russia is pseudo-european
11:08 < nmz787_> right?
11:08 < nmz787_> two pandemics?
11:08 < nmz787_> are you talking the Asian SARS thing in like 2007?
11:08 < xaete[m]> uh i was talking about "pandemics" in general, tbh this is the worst one yet
11:09 < superkuh> 2009 H1N1?
11:09 < xaete[m]> russia i feel is european enough to count, basically most people in "the west" (and i use this as an overly general term) are used to seeing war on foreign shores, but /ukraine/ is very close to home
11:10 < xaete[m]> yea that can count too, but tbh not as bad as the rona
11:10 < nmz787_> superkuh: I honestly had no idea people considered that there was a pandemic in 2009, until a year or so ago
11:11 < nmz787_> I was in college, it was all just classwork and homework to me
11:11 < nmz787_> even 9/11 seemed remote, and that was "only" a state away
11:13 < nmz787_> travelling the world when I was 18/19/20 were more once-in-a-lifetime feeling times for me than any of this other stuff
11:26 < nmz787_> L29Ah: I think my ADD would still flare up even in a resource-scarce situation. I have in fact lived in a tent for nearly a year while working for an environmental/conservation internship. My possessions/resources were pretty slim/minimal/constrained then.
11:44 < lsneff> I really need to get tested, keep forgetting to go set that up
11:44 < kanzure> .....
11:45 < lsneff> yeah
11:45 < muurkha> SARS-1 was 02002 to 02004
11:46 < muurkha> european nations openly at war with each other was a big thing in the 01990s in former Yugoslavia
11:46 < muurkha> a couple of my downstairs neighbors in the US were little kids missing body parts from the war
11:46 < muurkha> half an arm and half a foot
11:48 < muurkha> the other 9/11-like events for me were the invasion of Iraq (which, by proceeding without UN approval, laid the groundwork for the Ukraine invasion today) and Bush getting re-elected
11:48 < xaete[m]> yea the yugoslav wars were (relatively) recent, although iirc they were fairly shocking when they happened too?
11:48 < muurkha> but none of those had the kind of momentous impact of the current events
11:49 < muurkha> my notes on this situation from 02016 are in https://dercuano.github.io/notes/wwiii-genesis.html
11:51 < muurkha> Swiss neutrality lasted 207 years, if we don't count Crypto AG, but it ended last week
11:52 < muurkha> (traditionally the Swiss say it's 299 years older than that, but that date is less defensible)
12:05 < xaete[m]> at the same time this really does feel like russias last blow before it falls silent for a much longer time -- sanctions hit way harder than anyone thought and they're getting stalled in ukraine
12:09 < muurkha> I don't think they're stalled and I don't think the sanctions are going to cripple them
12:09 < muurkha> they may default on their sovereign debt and suffer a recession
12:10 < muurkha> but they're self-sufficient in terms of food and fuel, in fact being huge exporters of both
12:11 < muurkha> though presumably the renewable energy transition (which the Russian rank and file think is a myth!) will end most of their fuel exports
12:26 < juri_> L29Ah: hey, just thought i'd tell you my slicer is starting to be usable to print things horribly. I know how much you enjoy my projects. ;)
12:28 < muurkha> juri_: congratulations!
12:28 < juri_> muurkha: thanks! it's been a fun two years. ;)
12:31 < muurkha> I'm envious!
12:33 < lsneff> juri_: That's awesome!
12:35 < juri_> I've still got a ways to go.. but it can do stuff.
12:35 < juri_> i have a user. that's so weird! ;)
12:35 < muurkha> do you have photos?
12:35 < muurkha> haha, I know that feeling
12:36 < juri_> only of some epic fails. i'll ask for some of the successes.
12:39 < muurkha> the epic fails are usually more entertaining anyway
12:40 < juri_> I'm sure the successes are fail enough. i still don't close top surfaces, for instance. :)
12:40 < juri_> or have support. or rafts. or retraction.. or.. generally anything you could call a feature.
12:41 < juri_> but, haskell! and projective geometric algebra! and haskell! ;)
12:42 < muurkha> I've printed an awful lot of stuff without support or rafts, but retraction was pretty important for what I was doing
12:42 < muurkha> although I did use infill.  are you doing infill?
12:42 < juri_> I'll get there in a few weeks. still property-testing the geometry engine.
12:42 < juri_> yep.
12:43 < muurkha> well then you're basically done ;)
12:43 < juri_> i'll be basically done when my straight skeleton code does all of the things. :)
12:43 < juri_> had to write one from scratch.. and picked some new math that lets me parallelize the task.
12:50 < muurkha> I remember perusing your code a year or so ago
12:51 < muurkha> it was more algebraic than I thought such an algorithm could be
12:53 < juri_> ... it's gotten much worse. :)
12:53 < muurkha> haha
12:53 < muurkha> I *like* algebraic approaches to things
12:53 < muurkha> but I didn't understand it because I don't know enough about geometry
12:54 < muurkha> but I don't think that's the fault of the code!
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14:31 < maaku> nmz787_: 2000 dotcom bust, 9/11 and the wars that followed, 2007 financial crisis, the current war-driven downturn
14:32 < maaku> all of those are described as once-in-a-lifetime, but honestly their base frequency seems much higher
14:32 < maaku> also covid, which really does seem to be a once-every-few-hundred-years event
14:33 < muurkha> covid is less bad than the 01918 flu
14:34 < maaku> medical science is loads better than 1917. i think that's debatable
14:34 < maaku> but it's in the same league at least
14:34 < muurkha> I don't think the untreated death rate reaches that of the 01918 flu
14:34 < muurkha> and, if the high counters are right, much less bad than the American multi-disease epidemic in the 16th century
14:35 < muurkha> I mean I think the hospitalization rate is something like 5% of reported cases, probably 2% of total infections
14:35 < maaku> muurkha: there is no such thing as untreated death rate. people take all sorts of over-the-counter stuff now that was not available in 1917, people know about social distancing, etc.
14:35 < maaku> anyway not an interesting argument to have
14:35 < muurkha> sorry
14:36 < muurkha> (one last note: I don't think the over-the-counter stuff affects your risk of death from covid much, and social distancing has been practiced in pandemics for millennia)
14:36 < maaku> i bet if you caught covid while stuck in trench warfare you'd probably do as badly
14:37 < maaku> i just don't think you can realistically compare the two
14:37 < muurkha> you could certainly be correct
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16:34 < L29Ah> juri_: i barely escaped .ru, had to leave behind my 3d printer among other things, not sure when/if i get it back
16:35 < juri_> L29Ah: sorry to hear. if you need any sort of help, let me know.
16:35 < L29Ah> i doubt you can help, but business opportunities in Montenegro or remote C/Linux/Haskell developer jobs would be welcome :3
16:37 < lsneff> Very glad that you got out, best of luck!
19:36 < maaku> foresight has decided to go blockchain-buzzword: https://foresight.org/foresight-discord/?utm_source=Foresight+Newsletter+Subscribers&utm_campaign=103c4c3e53-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2022_02_22_05_04&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7c1b7f710b-103c4c3e53-232534815
19:36 < maaku> L29Ah: glad you made it out; 3d printers are replaceable
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20:41 < muurkha> L29Ah: oh, I'm very glad you made it out
21:58 < lsneff> maaku: Ah gross. Not a fan of what foresight has become
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22:03 < nmz787_> maaku: 2000 to me was all y2k hype, I guess I don't really remember the bust part of it. The internet and computers kept working.
22:14 < nmz787_> getting a working FIB for the price I found it at... now that's a once-in-a-lifetime deal (or at least it feels like it so far)
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 09 00:00:20 2022