--- Log opened Wed Mar 09 00:00:20 2022
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02:09 < muurkha> heh
03:00 < fenn> possibly the 1918 flu was more lethal because the populace had less access to cheap protein than there is now
03:00 < fenn> less antibody production
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03:55 < muurkha> that's a good point
03:56 < muurkha> soybeans might lower lethality greatly even if tylenol can't
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06:12 < superkuh> ... I don't think lack of amino acids is what made 1918 H1N1 severe.
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10:41 < lsneff> .wik plasmonic nanolithography
10:41 < saxo> "Plasmonic nanolithography (also known as plasmonic lithography or plasmonic photolithography) is a nanolithographic process that utilizes surface plasmon excitations such as surface plasmon polaritons (SPPs) to fabricate nanoscale structures." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmonic_nanolithography
10:41 < lsneff> https://escholarship.org/content/qt93c7w34j/qt93c7w34j_noSplash_0de7c84e2f482f776343b935b2bfa069.pdf
10:42 < lsneff> > (2010), 30nm feature size photolithography on a desktop-sized setup
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11:16 < kanzure> another brep nurbs kernel https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30597061
11:21 < lsneff> I wish them luck. Nurbs kernels are incredibly complex
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11:30 < juri_> cad geometry engines can be 'fun'. I know someone trying to add slicing support inside of freecad.. i wish him luck.
11:58 < muurkha> also interesting, lsneff:
11:59 < muurkha> .wik Scanning probe lithography
11:59 < saxo> "Scanning probe lithography (SPL) describes a set of nanolithographic methods to pattern material on the nanoscale using scanning probes." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_probe_lithography
11:59 < muurkha> linked from the above article
11:59 < lsneff> thanks
11:59 < muurkha> superkuh: I don't think so either but it's more plausible than lack of sudafed
12:33 < kanzure> "In vivo partial reprogramming alters age-associated molecular changes during physiological aging in mice" https://www.nature.com/articles/s43587-022-00183-2
12:33 < kanzure> "Multi-omic rejuvenation of naturally aged tissues by a single cycle of transient reprogramming" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/acel.13578
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13:45 < lsneff> Y’all remember that electrochemical 3d printing patent from a few months ago?
13:46 < lsneff> I wonder how small it could be scaled down… it might be possible to print nanoimprint-lithography templates with it
13:54 < muurkha> yeah, have you read notes/fresnel-mirror-electropolishing.html in Dernocua?  http://canonical.org/~kragen/dernocua/dernocua-020211231.tar.gz
13:54 < muurkha> there's also a PDF if you're on a cellphone
13:59 < lsneff> Could you link the pdf?
14:00 < muurkha> http://canonical.org/~kragen/dernocua/dernocua-020211231.pdf
14:04 < muurkha> see also notes/ecm-engraving.html in Derctuo
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20:42  * fenn reads the above-linked "high throughput plasmonic nanolithography" thesis by liang pan
20:43 < fenn> so basically they made bunch of "lenses" which convert incoming optical radiation into surface plasmons, and the plasmons are smaller than the wavelength by an order of magnitude or so
20:44 < fenn> they strap these lens arrays onto a hard drive head, which has a 2nm flying height, and this gets you a small spot size. so then you have to have really good timing with tens of thousands of picosecond lasers in order to write the dots on the rapidly spinning wafer where you want them
20:45 < fenn> surface plasmon polaritons
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21:23 < xaete[m]> alot of the dna synth sorta techniques use microfluidics to allow for high throughput/low reagent cost
21:24 < xaete[m]> what is the cheapest way to do microfluidics "at home" with say, (arbitrarily choosing) less than 10 hours of personal setup required?
21:38 < fenn> well "less than 10 hours" is not going to happen
21:39 < xaete[m]> arbitrarily i
21:39 < xaete[m]> '
21:39 < xaete[m]> ll increase it to like 100 hours then or something
21:39 < xaete[m]> basically, just wondering if theres something where i don't have to assemble the bulk of the actual device
21:40 < fenn> if you stretch the definition a little bit, laser printers can make small lines and reduced further with "shrinky dink" material. these lines can indent the surface of rigid plastic or PDMS when cast in.
21:40 < xaete[m]> (or to put it another way: a device where i spend more time making the microfluidics than making the device that makes the microfluidics)
21:40 < xaete[m]> hm interestin abt the printers
21:40 < fenn> the toner itself has a bit of thickness, and it bunches up even more when shrunk
21:42 < fenn> if you're willing to put in some time, you can build a spin coater with a CD-ROM and pattern it with either a laser or a DMD/DLP projector fed through a microscope
21:42 < fenn> a blu-ray laser head itself is pretty darn good
21:43 < fenn> the main problem for me is, what the heck do i do with "microfluidics"
21:43 < fenn> i dont generally find myself needing to run over 9,000 reactions in parallel
21:44 < xaete[m]> mumble mumble dna synthesis low cost uhh yea (something abt higher yields too maybe?)
21:44 < fenn> for assembling oligos perhaps, but i'd rather do that with opto-electrowetting
21:45 < xaete[m]> mhm
21:45 < fenn> and just use the same optics as were used to synthesize the oligos
21:45 < xaete[m]> ig my question is here b/c i always see lots of talk abt stuff like ufluidics n whatnot, but v. little room for practical application (in part b/c the upfront costs are so high)
21:45 < xaete[m]> like if i want do do chemical synthesis i have to invest (on the order of) 10^3 dollars or so
21:46 < xaete[m]> but stuff like microfluidics requires much more from what i can tell
21:46 < fenn> the idea is that it should cost less per reaction because you use less reagents
21:46 < xaete[m]> for optoelectrowetting what's the sorta "general startup cost" there?
21:46 < fenn> but for this to take off you need to do a group buy and distribute tiny quantities of a large number of reagents
21:47 < xaete[m]> and ye, "cost less per reaction", but oligo precursors are "only" 5 usd per gram which puts them in the same ballpark tbh (100g of each base is ~2000 usd for everything, then toss in costs for the other chemicals and youre lookin @ around 10k or so)
21:47 < fenn> i only know of a few academic labs that have done opto electrowetting, so there's no cost data
21:48 < xaete[m]> hm are there any easily-accessible papers on it?
21:48 < fenn> could be as simple as a cellphone and a magic piece of plastic film
21:48 < xaete[m]> (group buy stuff is always an option, but honestly like at 5 usd/g it doesnt make too much sense if "only" need say, 20g of each base, at which point i bet you can get free shipping too (below those costs shipping is p. expensive))
21:49 < xaete[m]>  * (group buy stuff is always an option, but honestly like at 5 usd/g it doesnt make too much sense if "only" need say, 20g of each base, at which point i bet you can get free shipping too (below those costs shipping is p. expensive)
21:50 < fenn> one moment please
21:50 < xaete[m]> mk np
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21:51 < fenn> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Single-sided%20continuous%20optoelectrowetting%20(SCOEW)%20for%20droplet%20manipulation%20with%20light%20patterns%20-%20LCD%20-%202010.pdf
21:52 < fenn> you can't buy DNA precursor reagents in small quantities. lol @ "free shipping"
21:53 < fenn> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Shrinky-Dink%20microfluidics%20-%203D%20polystyrene%20chips.pdf
21:53 < fenn> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Simple,%20robust%20storage%20of%20drops%20and%20fluids%20in%20a%20microfluidic%20device.pdf
21:54 < fenn> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Massively%20parallel%20manipulation%20of%20single%20cells%20and%20microparticles%20using%20optical%20images%20-%20DMD%20mirrors%20-%20Chiou,%20Ohta,%20Wu.pdf
21:57 < xaete[m]> mk thx
21:57 < xaete[m]> and re: small quantities, depends on what u mean by small
21:58 < xaete[m]> i can prob grab em in 10g quantities for each a t c g
22:00 < fenn> wow these papers are all pre-2009
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22:03 < fenn> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Toner_and_paper-based_fabrication_techniques_for_microfluidic_applications.pdf
22:17 < xaete[m]> re: small quantities - glen scientific seems to sell it in as low as 250mg for each base, so that doesn't seem to be an issue
22:19 < xaete[m]> goin thru my emails for costs not including shipping, the costs seem to be around 5.3 usd/g at 100g (before shipping, but if youre buying all of this, shipping is not going to be a concern at the 100g scale)
22:22 < xaete[m]> total chemical costs for something like that would be around probably be around 3k for everything (the most expensive would be the dna monomers ofc, the rest is (relatively) cheap, although getting acetic anhydride is more difficult)
22:25 < xaete[m]> equipment costs would be similar-ish (for stuff required to dilute it into solvents and so on and so forth), but with a few people together it seems perfectly viable for everyone to walk away with jugs of reagents in under around 5k overall, less if you do a smaller scale
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 10 00:00:21 2022