--- Log opened Tue Mar 22 00:00:32 2022
01:45 < fenn> kinda weird that propane and electricity cost the same per joule
02:00 < darsie> propane has higher energy density than batteries.
02:00 < darsie> But electricity is more versatile.
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09:59 < kanzure> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2253688-russian-biologist-still-aims-to-make-crispr-babies-despite-the-risks/
09:59 < kanzure> "Orwig says. Indeed, rodents with edited sperm stem cells have been used to create offspring with a desired DNA edit."
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15:48 < mrdata> these babies arent crispy enough
15:51 < mrdata> this is what CRISPR does to your DNA https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/590328a286e6c03c00e30535/1496323448392-AOPGEZ1R8TE7SE2YS0CP/IMG_5755.JPG?format=300w
16:42 < kanzure> doesn't matter, just sequence it, do target prediction against whole genome, check your work before you ship it
16:43 < kanzure> yashgaroth^
17:27 < yashgaroth> take embryonic cells out of the embryo, grow them in a dish until there's thousands, shotgun blast crispr the lot of em, isolate into single colonies and grow up clonally, sequence a subset of each colony, get 100% genome verification, grab another (embryonic stem) cell out of the colony and put its nucleus into an egg
17:28 < yashgaroth> if you just inject crispr into a post-fertilization egg, no amount of target prediction or statistics can guarantee one of the daughter cells isn't all kinds of fucked up
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19:20 < maaku> fenn: kinda weird that nuclear costs the same per joule
19:20 < maaku> fucking regulators
19:23 < muurkha> fenn: maybe so much electricity is used for heating that whenever electricity gets more expensive enough people switch to fossil fuels to bring the price back down?
19:23 < maaku> lsneff: what are you using the photolithography system for?
19:24 < lsneff> For myself, to play around with MEMS and maybe make some simple ICs
19:24 < muurkha> maaku: other appealing polar solvents include ammonia
19:24 < lsneff> But I also want to start a community to make cheap photolithography tools
19:25 < maaku> muurkha: I would say "other polar solvents that might poooossssibly work include ammonia"
19:25 < muurkha> fair
19:26 < maaku> liquid ethane and methane might work too
19:26 < maaku> but man, water is special
19:26 < muurkha> they're not very polar
19:26 < muurkha> at higher temperatures almost everything is a solvent
19:27 < muurkha> lsneff: super awesome
19:28 < maaku> astobiologists I know seem to think they might be polar enough. more importantly oceans/lakes of ethane or methane would more more common than lakes of ammonia
19:28 < muurkha> probably yeah
19:28 < lsneff> muurkha: thank you
19:28 < maaku> all of these suffer from the problem of not allowing free oxygen though, so hard to develop post-Cambrian life as we know it
19:29 < muurkha> maybe weaker oxidants like sulfur could take its place
19:29 < maaku> though an oxygen cycle is less critical than polar solvents or carbon chemistry, since there are alternative metabolic pathways
19:29 < maaku> yeah
19:29 < muurkha> a really interesting polar solvent in the 200°–700° range is phosphoric acid
19:29 < maaku> lsneff: sounds really interesting. hope you're able to get it working
19:30 < muurkha> you might say that's cheating because it's basically water but with a phosphorus atom in the middle of it and a slight hydrogen deficiency
19:30 < lsneff> Me too!
19:30 < lsneff> I made a project page: nffm.dev
19:31 < muurkha> but it's a pretty wonderful cheat
19:31 < muurkha> sulfuric acid is also pretty great
19:32 < muurkha> not quite as wide a liquid range
19:32 < muurkha> but clearly if there's life on a 200° planet or a 400° planet it won't be water-based
19:33 < muurkha> you could argue that very little of the volume of the universe is that hot, and that's true
19:34 < muurkha> but it's a very interesting very little, because there's so much energy available and things can potentially happen faster
19:34 < muurkha> those materials also aren't allergic to oxygen
19:37 < maaku> lsneff: how small a feature size do you think you can get?
19:37 < maaku> if I was this guy I don't think I'd sell to you either. you're likely to cut into his profit margin for the half dozen or so of these things he sells!
19:38 < lsneff> I’m not really sure yet. I’d like to eventually aim for something equivalent to a 130nm process.
19:38 < maaku> but yeah he no doubt makes his money selling the AFM at crazy markup and then barely scrapes by on the tips
19:38 < lsneff> There’s a lot of fancy optics before that’s possible.
19:39 < muurkha> optics are one approach, yeah
19:39 < maaku> do you think you can get any finer resolution than that? is 28nm outrageous?
19:39 < muurkha> optics are probably best for mass production
19:39 < muurkha> but if you're not doing mass production there are a lot of other possibilities that might be easier
19:40 < lsneff> Yeah, 28nm is definitely out of the question for a long, long time
19:41 < maaku> shame
19:41 < lsneff> I did a lot of thinking about the alternatives to optical photolithography, and I couldn’t find a method that wasn’t significantly harder or needed a lot more equipment
19:42 < lsneff> It’s possible that once the MEMS stuff works, someone could build a plasmonic photolithography machine
19:42 < lsneff> Those can go quite small
19:43 < maaku> actually I'm realizing I have no clue what feature size would be needed for MEMS controlling electric fields to guide protein-based mechanosynthesis processes
19:43 < lsneff> I believe MEMS is traditionally a pretty large feature size
19:44 < lsneff> For the time being, I’m going to use a DLP chip
19:44 < lsneff> And maybe an excimer 222nm lamp
19:44 < lsneff> Not sure if I’ll use a lens or a mirror system
19:47 < muurkha> well, I mean, e-beam patterning and FIB milling are alternatives
19:48 < lsneff> Very expensive and require vacuum systems
19:48 < muurkha> yes, but lots of semiconductor process steps require vacuum systems
19:48 < lsneff> I want to design a system that a hobbyist could build for 1000-2000 usd
19:48 < muurkha> probably the way to do that is to bring down the cost of some of the key components
19:48 < lsneff> For transistors yeah, but basic etching doesn’t necessarily
19:50 < lsneff> The project will definitely involve vacuum systems, but I don’t want to start with something that complex and expensive
19:50 < lsneff> I am a college student after all
19:50 < muurkha> do vacuum systems have to be complex and expensive?  how far can you get with a sorption pump?
19:51 < lsneff> I actually don’t know. I’ll definitely do more thinking about it, but it definitely intuitively seems like it would be more expensive and more complicated to me
19:51 < muurkha> (I mean, of course the answer depends on what kind of coolant you have for your sorbent, but in practical terms it seems like you ought to be able to get pretty far with dry ice and acetone)
19:55 < lsneff> I’m hoping that if these tools become more available, the shear number of the “right kind” of people messing with them will result in clever ways of improving performance that hasn’t been explored by the industry
19:56 < lsneff> So, none of these techniques are off the table
20:59 < lsneff> I might have to get custom mirrors for this
21:01 < muurkha> for sure.  or lenses
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22:16 < lsneff> Yeah. Looks like there aren’t any aspherical fused silica lenses with a high enough numerical aperture off the shelf
22:50 < maaku> muurkha: I expect vacuum systems will be more annoying than expensive
22:50 < maaku> hard to keep a good seal
22:50 < maaku> given that this is supposed to be targetted at hobbyists
--- Log closed Wed Mar 23 00:00:34 2022