--- Log opened Mon Mar 28 00:00:38 2022
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08:23 < kanzure> beep bloop
08:59 < darsie> .
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10:32 < lsneff> A company just announced a fuel-less satellite thruster based on quantized intertia
10:32 < lsneff> https://www.yahoo.com/now/ivo-ltd-introduces-world-first-100000962.html
10:33 < lsneff> Either they don't know what they're doing, are pulling a scam which will quickly be unveiled, or QI is actually legit
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11:23 < mrdata> show us its demonstrated performance
11:26 < mrdata> 45 millinewtons is fairly gentle
11:26 < xaete[m]> isnt this that emdrive bullshit?
11:27 < mrdata> seems like it
11:27 < mrdata> has it not flown in space yet
11:28 < mrdata> or mach effect
11:28 < mrdata> maybe
12:05 < redlegion> I do wonder what the response curve looks like. at what power draw do you no longer increase output?
12:13 < redlegion> interestingly enough, other electric propulsion systems that have been in use for more than one mission output a maximum of 92millinewton thrust.
12:15 < kanzure> oh, electric propulsion isn't strong?
12:17 < redlegion> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster#Comparisons
12:17 < redlegion> apparently not
12:20 < redlegion> if I remember correctly it takes 9800 newtons of force to press a pin into a dowel
12:22 < redlegion> the Boeing 737 engine produces 64 kilonewtons of thrust
12:25 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/RoswellBiotech/status/1508510643258724353
12:25 < saxo> #MoleculeMonday: We've wired a #CRISPR Cas Enzyme on the Roswell ME Chip™️using the guide RNA to tether it to the sensor and to program it for a specific target! New View: Each spike in the HDMI Trace shows the Cas binding a target DNA—programmable multiplex CRISPR on a chip! https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FO9OPVvVgAE6-Pb.jpg (@RoswellBiotech)
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17:06 < muurkha> docl: also I think they prepared silver chloride to separate silver from gold, so they could have done photography
17:07 < muurkha> (again around 2000 years ago, not 3000)
17:08 < muurkha> fenn: I'd think tungsten would probably work okay?  but a 100-μm-thick silver wire is also pretty cheap
18:27 < maaku> lsneff: nffm went private?
18:28 < maaku> kanzure: 0.45mN/W for zero propellant is pretty big
18:28 < maaku> you could use that for interstellar travel
18:29 < maaku> (if it scales)
18:29 < muurkha> I think we can probably file this under "perpetual motion machine of the day" though
18:29 < maaku> muurkha: it's a bit more complicated than that
18:30 < maaku> it does rely on new physics though
18:30 < maaku> if it worked, he'd be getting a nobel prize in physics as well as an investment check
18:30 < muurkha> since violating conservation of momentum in a relativistic universe would also imply violating conservation of energy.  and, well, GR is not known to guarantee conservation of energy
18:31 < maaku> this doesn't violate conservation of momentum
18:31 < muurkha> but finding an exploitable violation of energy conservation is, while not inconceivable, at least improbable
18:31 < muurkha> well, it might not — though then you probably couldn't use it for interstellar travel
18:32 < muurkha> unless it somehow allows you to react against mass that's light-years distant
18:33 < L29Ah> photon rocket is my favorite use of a perpetual motion machine
18:33 < maaku> muurkha: the way you would use it for interstellar travel is to hook it up to a 100MW or larger nuclear power plant
18:33 < maaku> you are basically converting mass -> motion
18:34 < maaku> and its not anymore violating of conservation laws than a photon rocket
18:34 < maaku> but, I'll believe it when I see it
18:35 < maaku> it's an application of MOND physics, which if true would compeltely upend cosmology and high-energy physics
18:36 < muurkha> maaku: I think a photon rocket avoids violating conservation of momentum because photons have momentum.  how would this thing avoid it?
18:38 < lsneff> maaku:  For the moment. I don't want to push pressure on me to work on nffm while I need to finish up my semester.
18:38 < maaku> muurkha: gravitons have momentum
18:38 < lsneff> Yeah, I'll believe it when someone puts in orbitt
18:38 < maaku> this device purportedly pushes against the gravitatiional field directly. kinda like a warp drive
18:39 < lsneff> 45 mN would be pretty easy to test, I can't imagine someone screwing that up
18:39 < maaku> lsneff: they have a pretty convincing demonstration by a well respected lab in germany
18:39 < maaku> which is the only reason I don't immediately discount it
18:39 < lsneff> Tajmar?
18:39 < muurkha> maaku: oh, so it's spewing out reaction mass in the form of gravity waves?
18:40 < maaku> but it's such a large claim that I'm not going to believe it myself until they demonstrate it with a small sat
18:40 < lsneff> I think think the QI stuff is supposed to be shooting out gravitons
18:40 < lsneff> Then it'd be as efficient as a photon rocket, where this clearly puts out a lot more thrust/watt (if it's real)
18:40 < muurkha> that is certainly a thing you could do but normally I would think it would require either black holes or star-sized masses
18:40 < lsneff> *don't think
18:40 < maaku> muurkha: essentially, yes, with the caveat that we don't have a complete MOND theory to describe it
18:41 < muurkha> so maybe it's not a perpetual-motion machine but, like most very surprising experimental results, it still seems likely to not pan out.  but maybe it will
18:42 < maaku> muurkha: the intuition pump is that because (in this theory) inertia is quantized, it is able to use some analogue to quantum tunneling to force such interactions without needing a black hole
18:42 < maaku> handwave, handwave
18:44 < muurkha> right
18:44 < maaku> if we wave our hands fast enough we can reach orbit!
18:44 < muurkha> cannot reach moon flapping arms harder
18:45 < muurkha> such really surprising experimental results do pan out from time to time.  but most don't
18:46 < lsneff> Well, these sort of things don't work until they do
18:46 < muurkha> QC is interesting because (as I understand it, not even having finished Aaronson's book) either we'll find out that something is profoundly wrong in quantum theory or we'll get a square-root speedup on a very significant class of important computational problems
18:48 < muurkha> which is a very different kind of proposition from "this theory predicts quantized inertia and our apparatus seems to be producing reactionless thrust" 
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18:48 < muurkha> even if their theory predicts the amount of reactionless thrust to three decimal places (does it?)
18:49 < maaku> muurkha: I think they would argue that the rotation rate of galaxies is the proof
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18:49 < maaku> we can either hypothesize some form of dark matter we cant detect is evenly distributed throughout the universe... or quantize inertia and it happily works out
18:50 < maaku> and if you quantize inertia, then some sort of device like this should be possible
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18:51 < lsneff> It's too bad the guy is such an asshole
18:51 < muurkha> is he?
18:54 < lsneff> very transphobic
18:54 < muurkha> ah, hadn't heard
18:54 < lsneff> at least, it seemed to be a year or two ago.  I don't know how he is now
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18:57 < lsneff> That doesn't influence the validity (or not) of his theory, but it is too bad
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19:17 < lsneff> If it does work, it looks like one could probably make it with a pcb with a custom layer stack up
22:28 < maaku> muurkha: I said gravitons earlier. that's not quite correct. this quantum inertia theory says there is a inertial field and gravity field which just happen to coincide at human-scale
22:31 < muurkha> could be, you could still have inertia bosons that have momentum?
--- Log closed Tue Mar 29 00:00:39 2022