--- Log opened Sat Apr 09 00:00:49 2022
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11:32  Jay_Dugger> Hello, everyone.
11:58  lsneff> Hi Jay
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16:44  muurkha> lsneff: money?
16:44  muurkha> I got my first FPGA devboard yesterday!  I'm so excited!
17:08  lsneff> Fpgas are a lot of fun
17:08  lsneff> Yeah
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20:37  lsneff> I really don’t understand why mems is not fleshed out more
20:38  lsneff> We could totally have artificial muscles with mems
20:38  muurkha> how?
20:38  muurkha> I mean, what mechanisms are you thinking of?
20:39  lsneff> There are piezoelectric motors which basically copy the inchworm movement
20:40  lsneff> Run it at MHz and scale that kind of motor down to MEMS, and then have millions of them running together
20:40  lsneff> Certainly not easy, but I see no reason why it wouldn’t be possible
20:41  lsneff> See, this is what happens when technologies are locked behind giant paywalls
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20:46  muurkha> most MEMS is made with repurposed chipmaking equipment, which can fabricate things out of monocrystalline silicon, amorphous silicon dioxide, amorphous silicon nitride, polycrystalline aluminum, and polycrystalline copper, and a very short list of other materials
20:46  muurkha> none of those are piezoelectric
20:47  muurkha> (hafnium oxide and thus presumably zirconium oxide, but I'm not sure if that's amorphous or polycrystalline)
20:47  muurkha> oh also amorphous silicon I think
20:48  muurkha> the other issue is that that kind of stick-slip movement sometimes has surface wear, though not as much as rubbing motion
20:48  muurkha> MEMS gears apparently work fine but wear out in a few minutes
20:48  lsneff> You can deposit piezoelectric layers on silicon. Silicon mems can also actuate using electrostatic forces
20:49  lsneff> Wearing out does sound like an issue
20:49  muurkha> yes, there are a lot of electrostatic silicon MEMS motors
20:49  lsneff> I wonder if you could coat the active areas in diamond
20:50  muurkha> incuding some electrostatic steppers, though I think they have the same problem as gears
20:50  muurkha> for continuous motion I mean
20:51  muurkha> there are surely piezoelectric materials you can deposit on silicon, but has anyone successfully patterned them at micron scales?
20:51  lsneff> Yeah, piezo meme is a thing
20:51  lsneff> *piezoMEMS
20:51  muurkha> neat! I didn't know that!
20:52  lsneff> Definitely seems like a work in progress still though
20:53  lsneff> A lot of inkjet printheads more or less use piezoMEMS
20:53  lsneff> Though that’s more specialized than general mems
20:53  muurkha> isn't that just a small piezoelectric actuator?
20:53  muurkha> I mean, like a block of material
20:54  muurkha> as opposed to something more finely patterned
20:55  lsneff> For inkjets? Somewhere between the two afaik
20:56  lsneff> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8808722
20:58  muurkha> thanks!
20:58  lsneff> “We present for the first time a fabrication process which allows the patterning; internal alignment; and integration of liquid crystal elastomers (LCEs), a promising family of "artificial muscle" actuators for MEMS technology. The actuation direction of LCEs is defined by the internal alignment of the liquid crystal domains. The approach described here allows the definition of arbitrary alignment directions using a wafer-level process. This
20:58  lsneff> technology thus allows programming and structuring of artificial muscle actuators with arbitrary actuation direction and direct integration with standard silicon, polymer and other micromechanical components.”
20:58  muurkha> oh speaking of giant paywalls the ACM made everything up to 02000 open access
20:58  lsneff> Ah, that’s good to hear
20:59  lsneff> I barely even try to access through journal sites anymore though. Scihub is just way easier
20:59  muurkha> yeah!  better still, they want to go fully open access within 5 years!
20:59  lsneff> That is fantastic
21:06  lsneff> I’m mostly interested in the mems actuators for space suit use
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21:07  muurkha> oh?
21:10  lsneff> For mechanical counterpressure suits
21:10  muurkha> I should probably google that, shouldn't I?
21:11  lsneff> They need to shrink (in the right places) to provide counter-pressure and probably should provide breathing assistance too by compressing the chest
21:11  lsneff> Yes
21:12  fenn> typically you have a hard torso with a counterlung in the abdomen area, and gel filled pads to make everything concave most of the time
21:12  fenn> convex*
21:13  lsneff> Makes sense
21:14  fenn> the compression is actuated by gas filled bladders (capstan tubes) on the sides of the arms and legs, that inflate when the suit is under pressure. that way you always have mechanical counterpressure when you need it, (barring severe suit damage) and never when you don't need it
21:14  fenn> if the suit compresses you while not pressurized, your head pops, or something like that
21:14  lsneff> Ah, the flight suits
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21:17 < lsneff> I’ve never quite been sure why those didn’t pan out
21:17 < lsneff> The MCP suits with the gas bladders on the sides of limbs
21:20 < lsneff> Yeah, I think the biosuit idea is more on the right path
21:21 < lsneff> With the new kinds of actuating polymers, it could be pulled on easily and then compress around the wearer
21:21 < lsneff> And different patches could have different tensions
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--- Log closed Sun Apr 10 00:00:50 2022