--- Log opened Tue Apr 19 00:00:59 2022
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04:51 < docl> .tw https://twitter.com/s_r_constantin/status/1516369976734670849
04:51 < saxo> "Way more things are chronic infections than you think" is one of the standard controversial science opinions that I bet will be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt in my lifetime. // https://www.hardtowrite.com/pathogens/ (@s_r_constantin)
05:12 < nsh> speaking as someone recovering from one finally identified, yup
05:12 < nsh> (HSV and other virals masking as eczema)
05:12 < nsh> continuous aciclovir + il-4 blocking antibody -> massive improvement in functionality and quality of life within a few weeks
05:12 < lsneff> I have to fly across the country next month
05:13 < nsh> after years degrading my body with corticosteroids
05:14 < docl> ugh, I want a synthetic immune system. patch updates for the latest virus downloaded to a chip that mfgs the antibody directly
05:24 < muurkha> nsh: hooray!
05:24 < nsh> ty \o/
05:24 < muurkha> that's wonderful news
05:24 < nsh> next hurdle will be continuing the dupliwhatever when the private prescription runs out, which means begging to the health authority for funding
05:24 < nsh> but i should at least have a very forceful note from an expert dermatologist
05:25 < nsh> and getting out of this house full of black mold might go a long way
05:28 < lsneff> Oh that’s great news nsh
05:28 < nsh> ty
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05:29 < muurkha> yeah, not poisoning yourself sounds worthwhile.  do you have air filters?
05:30 < nsh> parents' house and they've moving out. the damp is endemic and i can't go scraping it all away. better i just find myself a plae
05:30 < nsh> *place
05:31 < nsh> i'm well enough now to manage the move
05:31 < nsh> which hasn't been the case for a few years
05:31 < nsh> [off] also no longer being investigated by any LEA for lolcrimes so another weight off my shoulders
05:31 < muurkha> you can get a portable air filter unit which can dramatically reduce the spores in the air
05:32 < muurkha> doesn't stop the black mold from growing in the walls but ought to reduce the impact on your health
05:33 < muurkha> I mean if I found out there was stachybotrys in my walls my response would be a lot more extreme than getting an air filter
05:33 < muurkha> I'd couchsurf
05:34 < muurkha> but a portable air filter is a much less disruptive and expensive response
05:35  * nsh nods
05:35 < nsh> will have a look, ty
05:35 < muurkha> make sure it's HEPA
05:39  * nsh nods
05:44 < nsh> this or a few notches up? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silentnight-38060-Purifier-Replaceable-Triple/dp/B01G7L4DH6/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=HEPA+Filter+Air+Purifier&qid=1650371877&sr=8-3
05:44 < nsh> .t
05:44 < saxo> Silentnight Air Purifier with HEPA & Carbon Filters, Air Cleaner for Allergies, Pollen, Pets, Dust, Smokers; Home or Office; Ionizer and Timer Function 38060 [Energy Class A] : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools
05:44 < nsh> looks a bit.. smol
05:46 < muurkha> sounds reasonable except for the ionizer thing.  "ionizer" means "ozone generator" and if you concentrate that enough to make a difference with the mold it will also destroy your lungs
05:48 < muurkha> I don't really know how big your house is but you can do the calculation.  you probably don't need multiple air changes per hour because spores are released over a longer timescale
05:52 < nsh> it's probably marketing drivel 
05:52 < nsh> (the ozone bit, but who knows)
05:53 < nsh> can check the regulatory submissions
05:53 < nsh> .t https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.newscientist.com/article/2316408-quantum-experiments-add-weight-to-a-fringe-theory-of-consciousness/
05:53 < saxo> 12ft |
05:54 < superkuh> Uhg. BS.
05:54 < superkuh> Anesthetics change the pressure profile across the lipid membrane and alter the heat capacity changing the likelyhood of action potential propagation.
05:55 < superkuh> It's like people forgot about the 1900s neuroscience and meyer-overton rule.
05:55 < superkuh> If it's not an ion channel they can't conceive of it anymore. :|
05:57 < nsh> classical doesn't exist a mesoscale
05:57 < nsh> so you're railing against... nothing
05:57 < nsh> there are only quantum effects or we have physics way the fuck wrong
05:58 < nsh> just because you can ignore something at some scales doesn't mean you have to have a holy metaphysical war against it
05:58 < nsh> that's just.. silly
05:58 < nsh> you are better than this :)
05:58 < nsh> *at mesoscale
05:58 < nsh> doesn't mean hammeroff is right, just that he tried harder than most are willing
05:58 < muurkha> it's easy to check whether something is generating ozone once you plug it in
05:58 < nsh> cool
06:02 < superkuh> nsh, of course there are quantum effects, they just don't have anything more to do with the operation of a neuron and propagation of an action potential then they have to do with water freezing. Yeah, it's the basis, but warm, dense, long timescales and it's irrelevant.
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06:03 < nsh> if i need advice from the 1970s i'll just read a textbook written then
06:03 < nsh> have a nice day
06:03 < superkuh> K. Have fun with your woo woo.
06:03 < nsh> i would recommend some ketamine, yes
06:03  * nsh smiles
06:09 < nsh> trying to find the paper being discussed by new scientists but it's below the paywall
06:09 < nsh> might be this: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10068-4
06:09 < nsh> .t
06:09 < saxo> Radical pairs may play a role in microtubule reorganization | Scientific Reports
06:09 < nsh> though the abstract doesn't support the headline
06:09 < nsh> (closer to superkuh's position)
06:10 < nsh> (well, somewhat splitting the difference, which is all i'm advocating for...)
06:10 < nsh> (spin dynamics not being classical 'warm, wet' phenomena)
06:20 < superkuh> God, while a pile of untested assumptions in this paper. Literally stringing together 6-7 what-ifs from theoretical modeling papers. They're really laying it on thick. I'm gonna laugh when they publish their retraction when they realize their complex story has nothing to do with it (not wrong, but not relevant and difference cause) and it's all just altered ca2+ cytosolic concentration (which they don't control for or even think about) downstream 
06:20 < superkuh> effects.
06:20 < superkuh> Hard to believe this gets published in Nature, even in sci rep.
06:22 < superkuh> w/while/what/
06:29 < muurkha> lasers have warm, dense, long timescales, too
06:31 < muurkha> I mean, I'm a priori not very willing to believe that quantum entanglement in microtubules has anything special to do with consciousness
06:31 < superkuh> dense?
06:32 < muurkha> ruby is pretty dense
06:32 < superkuh> I guess there are some tens of nanoseconds atmospheric pressure lasers.
06:32 < superkuh> Ah, true.
06:33 < muurkha> I'm just saying that the idea that quantum phenomena have to disappear above the subatomic level or picosecond timescale, or in messy environments, isn't really true
06:33 < muurkha> you want quantum theory to give classical results in cases where classical theory successfully predicts experimental results, but not in cases where it doesn't, like lasers or transistors
06:34 < muurkha> the first such cases were cold, rarefied, tiny, ultrafast, or several of these, but not all of them
06:34 < superkuh> Again, not denying the utility of describing small isolated things with quantum physics. But an action potential, the basis of neural computation, is involving the phase transition of a large pool of lipids bumping up against each other in a disordered manner.
06:35 < muurkha> yeah, it seems a priori implausible to me, just not for the reason you said ;)
06:42 < jrayhawk> nsh: i have a friend managing similar symptoms with dupilumab. thanks for sharing the antiviral idea.
06:42 < nsh> fighting woo with dogmatic close-mindedness is kinda why we haven't had meaningful progress in foundations for the last century or so but hey
06:42 < nsh> jrayhawk, hope it helps them!
06:43 < nsh> when you end up in a metaphysical cul-de-sac i guess just trying to fight anyone who suggests a retrace becomes a life-affirming habitus
06:43 < nsh> not my funeral
06:44 < superkuh> I'm hardly being dogmatic or close-minded. That's the guys tying themselves up in knots with ever more complex epicycles trying to explain why inert gases can cause anesthesia despite not being active at ion channels.
06:45 < nsh> if you can't grant for a kind of signalling that modulates cell function that isn't stereochemical
06:45 < nsh> like can't even give it the space for putative potential existence
06:45 < nsh> then yes you are and that's why i'm already all-in on the culture that replaces your when you've finished backing yourselves into extinction
06:45  * nsh shrugs
06:46 < nsh> *yours
06:46 < nsh> it's not person
06:46 < nsh> al
06:46 < nsh> i've just seen it enough already
06:46 < superkuh> ... says the guy who's calling for magnetic field effects via free radicals when *all* the effects are explained by ca2+ on the microtubles.
06:46 < nsh> talk to the funding bodies that granted this research then
06:47 < nsh> they're clearly wasting their investors' moneys
06:47 < nsh> and i'll not bother finding a hundred thousand studies looking for similar things you don't think need to be looked for
06:47 < nsh> take it as read
06:48 < nsh> donald trump can't fathom anything more recent than the TiVo; not a look i'd be keen on replicating
06:48 < nsh> but anyway, i'm down on neurotrasmitters due to a long weekend so forgive my crankiness
06:54 < muurkha> I think the woo itself has also been a major reason we haven't had meaningful progress in foundations for the last century
06:55 < muurkha> in general funding bodies are willing to fund a surprisingly wide range of research
07:22  * nsh nods
07:22 < nsh> here's a better [unpaywalled] article reporting on the same: https://www.scientiststudy.com/2022/04/quantum-experiments-add-weight-to.html
07:22 < nsh> "science of consciousness" conference does suggest a certain laxness in accepted submissions
07:22 < nsh> from the kinds of talks i've seen from similar things
07:23 < nsh> .t https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/aaf839
07:23 < saxo> ShieldSquare Captcha
07:23 < nsh> not the same authors but similar research:
07:23 < nsh> --
07:23 < nsh> Microtubules are biological protein polymers with critical and diverse functions. Their structures share some similarities with photosynthetic antenna complexes, particularly in the ordered arrangement of photoactive molecules with large transition dipole moments. As the role of photoexcitations in microtubules remains an open question, here we analyze tryptophan molecules, the amino acid building block of microtubules with the largest transition dipole 
07:23 < nsh> strength. By taking their positions and dipole orientations from realistic models capable of reproducing tubulin experimental spectra, and using a Hamiltonian widely employed in quantum optics to describe light–matter interactions, we show that such molecules arranged in their native microtubule configuration exhibit a superradiant lowest exciton state, which represents an excitation fully extended on the chromophore lattice. We also show that such 
07:23 < nsh> a superradiant state emerges due to supertransfer coupling between the lowest exciton states of smaller blocks of the microtubule. In the dynamics we find that the spreading of excitation is ballistic in the absence of external sources of disorder and strongly dependent on initial conditions. The velocity of photoexcitation spreading is shown to be enhanced by the supertransfer effect with respect to the velocity one would expect from the strength of the 
07:23 < nsh> nearest-neighbor coupling between tryptophan molecules in the microtubule. Finally, such structures are shown to have an enhanced robustness to static disorder when compared to geometries that include only short-range interactions. These cooperative effects (superradiance and supertransfer) may induce ultra-efficient photoexcitation absorption and could enhance excitonic energy transfer in microtubules over long distances under physiological conditions.
07:23 < nsh> --
07:23 < nsh> superkuh actually knows a thing or two about antenna science as i recall
07:24 < nsh> that departure point might facilitate a little more generous a reading
07:24 < nsh> nothing about that abstract reads as remotely wooey to me
07:26 < nsh> the delayed luminscence is just the same thing as action potential threshold activation in neurons at junctions but as a photonic rather than ionic phenomenon
07:26 < nsh> reasonable enough
07:26 < muurkha> yeah, probably biological science of consciousness in the early 21st century is about as likely as a science of infectious disease in the 15th century
07:26  * nsh nods
07:26 < nsh> the thing about babysteps is that you have to encourage them
07:26 < nsh> not laugh every time a toddler toddles over
07:26 < nsh> not to belabour the point or anything
07:27 < muurkha> maybe, but probably working on microscopes would be more productive
07:27 < muurkha> in retrospect
07:27 < nsh> you don't know the tool you're missing until you find it
07:27 < nsh> science is 90% looking for keys under the lamppost
07:27 < nsh> and 10% finding a book of matches
07:27 < nsh> you can quote me on that :)
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08:02 < kanzure> "Efficient evolution of human antibodies from general protein language models and sequence information alone" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.04.10.487811v1
08:02 < kanzure> cc yashgaroth
08:05 < kanzure> nsh: if you're discussing consciousness i'd just like to remind everyone that the null hypothesis is quite interesting
08:09 < nsh> null hypothesis here being?
08:10 < nsh> the null hypothesis if you're a western materialist is significantly different to if you're a panpsychist or panhylist
08:10 < nsh> or a sage of any stripe
08:10 < nsh> or have experienced anything the more spartan of phenomenology
08:10 < nsh> *but the most spartan
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08:16 < yashgaroth> lmao are they saying they can make the antibody better even if the ML model doesn't know what the antigen is? Seems like they're not limiting it to the traditional variable region, so they can tweak the backbone of the antibody to stabilize it more. I should note that improving the thermostability of a protein in itself isn't necessarily useful
08:19 < yashgaroth> same for affinity, though obviously a femtomolar binding affinity is great, the antibody candidates that make it to the clinic aren't necessarily the absolute best binders. And I'd be wary of mutating too much of the backbone, Acceleron's bispecific Fc fusion candidate for myostatin had just a few mutations in the backbone to give it bispecificness and it failed trials due to immunogenicity (against, presumably, those mutated parts)
08:21 < yashgaroth> there's a lot here, can't tell if they've published the ML model since if it takes "less than a second" it can't be too processor-intensive? Or is that under a second on Stanford's cluster
08:26 < yashgaroth> but hey wetlab affinity maturation has given repetitive stress shoulder injuries to thousands of PhDs, so any improvement to the process is a boon. Oh I see they're gonna patent the algo bleh
08:27 < lsneff> Patents don’t really matter that much these days
08:27 < lsneff> Just copy it
08:29 < yashgaroth> how do you patent ML algos anyway? Like, are they publishing enough to reverse engineer it?
08:30 < yashgaroth> or is it just a patent on 'any algorithm that increases the stability of a protein' because that sounds dumb enough to be patentable. I mean if I got a copy of it, they couldn't prove that whatever amino acid substitutions it spit out weren't found out the old-fashioned way in a petri dish
08:31 < lsneff> I bet you could patent an ML algo without publishing the data it’s trained on
08:37 < yashgaroth> I mean they just use a database of all published proteins, then the algo focuses on the 2,000 sequences that look most similar to the antibody they're working on. But idk how ML works beyond "it's a black box". Presumably anyone with enough GPUs and and ML superstar coders could get a similar product, but would whatever they produced be infringing on this patent?
08:59 < muurkha> nsh: how would you know what a sage would think?  :)
08:59 < nsh> i listen to them :)
08:59 < nsh> (and occasionally am one)
09:00 < nsh> (but one doesn't say that even in candour because it's feeding the ego)
09:00 < muurkha> but you can't tell the difference between sages and fools
09:00 < muurkha> so you listen to fools just as much
09:00 < nsh> i share a few things you consider folly and your feedback is usually incredibly valuable
09:00 < nsh> you don't have a representative sample of my critical faculties though
09:00 < nsh> and suggesting you do is hubristic
09:01 < nsh> (another example of candour being elevated beyond tact)
09:01 < nsh> i've also been effectively braindamaged the last 10 years
09:01 < nsh> so 
09:01 < nsh> add a pinch of salt
09:03 < kanzure> we need more cool papers in here
09:03 < kanzure> where's my cool science people
09:03 < muurkha> I'm just saying you're not really an authority of what sages of every stripe would think, nsh
09:04 < nsh> i'd say there's a commonality and it isn't materialist reductivism
09:04 < nsh> but you're free to differ in perspective
09:04 < nsh> i'm not trying to be authoritative, even if i state things as fact
09:04 < nsh> kalama sutra applies, as ever
09:05 < nsh> --
09:05 < nsh> “It is fitting for you to be perplexed, Kālāmas, fitting for you to be in doubt. Doubt has arisen in you about a perplexing matter. Come, Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a collection of scriptures, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our gur
09:05 < nsh> u.’ But when, Kālāmas, you know for yourselves: ‘These things are unwholesome; these things are blameworthy; these things are censured by the wise; these things, if accepted and undertaken, lead to harm and suffering,’ then you should abandon them.
09:05 < nsh> -- https://suttacentral.net/an3.65/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false
09:06 < nsh> or "ye shall know them by their fruits" to quote another sage
09:06 < nsh> you probably know all though, right?
09:06 < nsh> being so much more broadly learned than i :)
09:06 < kanzure> nsh are you ok
09:06 < kanzure> i liked you when you had that corticosteroid high
09:07 < kanzure> jk :)
09:07  * nsh smiles
09:07 < muurkha> I'm just a muurkha
09:08 < muurkha> my only advantage over you in this department is that I'm aware of it ;)
09:11 < nsh> fair
09:11 < nsh> i've been just a mortal too; i've also been consciously not - this latter being a precondition of sagacity
09:12 < nsh> but i am prone to arrogance. this much is known :)
09:12 < nsh> wrong place to talk about such matters though
09:12  * nsh goes back to cleaning public telephones
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09:21 < docl> .tw https://twitter.com/Robotbeat/status/1516251879545659395
09:21 < saxo> Is there anything that decays by spontaneous fission most of the time and has a half-life of anywhere between a few months and a few decades? (@Robotbeat)
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09:22 < docl> for tiny nuclear rockets that you could beam around to push things (macron beams)
09:22 < nsh> (half-lives don't vary, being an average of spontaneous events with predictable statistics)
09:22 < nsh> some mixture of elements might have a range of half-lives but i don't think that's gonna do what you want
09:23 < docl> he's asking a different question than that
09:23 < nsh> 'anything' could be more narrowly specified i guess
09:23 < docl> i.e. which radioisotopes half lives fall somewhere in this range
09:23 < nsh> a particular nucleus has a fixed half-life modulo impinging matter/radiation
09:24 < nsh> that's a question for wolfram alpha
09:24 < docl> apparently Cf-254 would work for this, although getting your hands on that might be tricky
09:25 < nsh> or wikinerds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_radioactive_nuclides_by_half-life
09:25 < nsh> kiloseconds and megaseconds sections there
09:25 < nsh> actually just the kilseconds range
09:26 < nsh> maths being hard
09:27 < nsh> if you're proposing a propulsion method then you don't need to rely on spontaneous decay if you have a neutron source you can refuel by scoop or whatever
09:27 < docl> the products have to be spontaneous fission since alpha particles tend to be a bit too low mass to get much thrust per unit energy
09:27 < nsh> hmm maybe; talkigm over my paygrade again
09:27 < lsneff> It’s an interesting idea
09:27 < docl> it needs to work without a reactor to get small enough rockets to treat as a macron beam
09:27 < muurkha> the Kesamutti Sutta is sound advice.  you'll note, though, that to the extent that it advances an ontological theory at all, it's not merely materialist but in fact pragmatist: even in the part you quote, it claims that the very idea of objective truth is a distraction on the path to beliefs that are useful
09:27 < docl> although maybe if you fly them through a neutron beam it'd be fine
09:28 < lsneff> I think the idea is a fission fragments thruster to align trajectories
09:28 < lsneff> The initial acceleration would be an external force I think
09:28 < docl> yeah that would be the efficient way to do it... shoot them out of a gun, then use the rockets to keep them lined up with the target
09:30 < nsh> muurkha, well-observed
09:32 < muurkha> so I suggest not deprecating and disparaging the doctrines of the materialist reductivist sages :)
09:32 < docl> I wonder if maybe solar powered ion microthrusters would be plenty good enough for trajectory alignment? or heck, adjustable solar sails
09:33 < lsneff> My thought was a micromirror (or several) on the rear of macrons that would reflect a laser beam in different directions
09:38 < nmz787> docl: have you seen Applied Ion Systems twitter? https://appliedionsystems.com/
09:38 < docl> nmz787: no, hadn't heard of it
09:39 < docl> nifty!
09:41 < muurkha> it's good stuff
09:44 < lsneff> https://appliedionsystems.com/products/
09:44 < lsneff> Why do these cost so much?
09:46 < nmz787> lsneff: trying to recoop engineering time by offering convenience
09:48 < nmz787> that cost is nothing for a satellite comms company looking to try things out... just think about how much a salaried engineer costs every 2 weeks... vs "buy it now" convenience that comes with specs, test/validation data, design CAD/collateral
09:48 < muurkha> lsneff: the 1U launch cost is about US$40k-US$160k, so a US$2500 thruster is not a big-ticket item
09:49 < muurkha> cf. https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/20009/cubesat-launch-costs
09:51 < muurkha> not even a US$15k thruster
09:52 < muurkha> a senior software engineer might cost US$10k a week, but aerospace engineers aren't that expensive
09:52 < nsh> (that calculus will change drastically once we have better orbit-assistance tech or a moonbase though)
09:52 < nsh> wonder what the expected launch costs are for gas gun proposals 
09:53 < nsh> other limiting factors there though due to the ballistic velocities
09:53 < nsh> everything inside needs to be safe from extreme accelerations
09:53 < muurkha> hard to say.  I posted the crudest outlines of an analysis at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31036411
09:53 < nsh> and not many things are built with high Gs in mind
09:53 < nsh> ah nice
09:54 < muurkha> about light gas guns
09:54 < muurkha> I think the issue is that too much is unknown
09:54 < muurkha> how much does it cost when the Mossad assassinates your chief engineer?
09:54 < nsh> 1000G is gonna defeat solder unless you have some kinda foam inside all the circuitry areas for instance
09:54 < nsh> (at a guess)
09:54 < nsh> lol, good point
09:55 < nsh> maybe you can launch something first that creates an atmospheric wake
09:55 < nsh> but probably not as it would slow down too fast relative to what you intend to draft with it
09:55 < muurkha> how much does it cost to persuade the Russians you aren't launching an ICBM?
09:56 < nsh> one red telephone and some mutual respect
09:56 < nsh> so, a lot
09:56 < muurkha> right
09:56 < muurkha> I think solder will hold up better than foams to that kind of thing fwiw
09:56 < nsh> yeah maybe i haven't shaken either that hard
09:56 < nsh> definitely seen more damaged commodity electronics than mattresses though
09:56 < muurkha> SpinLaunch is shooting for 10 000 gees
09:57 < nsh> after about 10 gees you may as well measure in m/s^2 as you're talking about .2 from a factor of ten
09:57 < nsh> but i guess people are used to it
09:57 < muurkha> it can be handy to think "oh, that means that each gram weighs 10 kg"
09:58 < nsh> yeah true
10:01 < lsneff> electronics can definitely survive that, I’m not sure the specifics, but it’s been done before
10:01 < lsneff> Even with vacuum tubes
10:01 < muurkha> I think you could get pretty far potting your electronics in an epoxy filled with enough metal oxide to match the density of the electronics
10:01 < lsneff> Yeah, I was about to say epoxy potting
10:01 < muurkha> yeah, vacuum tube proximity fuzes from WWII were mentioned in the comments thread on the orange website several times
10:02 < lsneff> I wonder when someone will get around to designing an entire nanosat in a single cmos device, thruster and comms included
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10:07 < nsh> evacuated mountain channel is probably a very good shout there muurkha 
10:07 < nsh> given the whole thing may as well be built in somewhere like cheyenne complex
10:08 < muurkha> lsneff: SpinLaunch's idea isn't to launch all the way to orbit but to launch a second-stage rocket that can reach orbit; I don't think there's a plausible way to build that on a chip
10:09 < muurkha> nsh: hey, I didn't mention the mountain!
10:09 < lsneff> Oh, not like that
10:10 < nsh> i read between the lines (and loved stargate television series)
10:10 < lsneff> But you could totally fit a tiny ion/whatever thruster, photovoltaics, antenna, etc on a single (but large) chip
10:11 < lsneff> The industry is moving in that direction as far as I can tell anyhow. Not all on a single wafer, but not quite like PCBs either.
10:12 < muurkha> maybe? in what sense is it a single chip if it's not even a single wafer though?
10:12 < muurkha> nsh: good save ;)
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10:14 < lsneff> I guess it wouldn’t be a single chip
10:15 < muurkha> lsneff: still aerospace engineers might cost US$3k a week, and they probably can't develop a thruster like these in 1 week or even 5 weeks
10:16 < muurkha> even if you plan to build your own later it might be worthwhile to test against one that's already validated to work
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10:16 < lsneff> Are aerospace engineers that inexpensive
10:17 < lsneff> I feel like aero/EE engineering is way more difficult that software
10:17 < lsneff> Actually, I know that it’s way more difficult
10:19 < muurkha> US$3k a week is US$150k a year; certainly I have worked with lots of aerospace engineers and EEs whose salary+benefits cost less than that
10:20 < muurkha> the reason is not that the activity is more difficult; all three engineering fields offer arbitrarily difficult challenges, including things that are trivial for children and things that nobody has ever been able to achieve
10:22 < muurkha> it's that an aerospace engineer working for Boeing or even Bombardier Aerospace does not have the alternative of quitting to run her own jet turbine manufacturing plant on a server in her basement
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10:23 < muurkha> so to a significant extent she has to accept whatever terms are offered by the people who run the jet turbine manufacturing plants
10:26 < lsneff> That’s unfortunate
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10:28 < muurkha> when Bill Lear founded Learjet in 01962 the picture was a little different, but he still had to move to Switzerland to do it, and he couldn't do it until he was already 60, after 44 years of mostly being an employee (though he did start the Radio Coil and Wire Corporation in his 20s, which later became a third of Motorola)
10:30 < muurkha> oh, no, he'd previously founded an avionics company when he was about 40
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10:30 < muurkha> (production ended on the Learjet last month)
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10:31 < lsneff> I remember seeing an article about that
10:31 < muurkha> he also named his third child, a daughter, Shanda.
10:32 < lsneff> I wonder whether that’s because building turbojets or whatever is so complicated that you need very long-term organizations to do it—or if so much of the knowledge is locked behind doors and within patents that you need a massive, wealthy, incumbent corporation to get anything done
10:32 < muurkha> well, patents are one way that investors improve their negotiating position vis-a-vis hackers
10:34 < muurkha> but the traditional foundation of capitalism, one that's still highly relevant to aerospace, is tangible capital goods such as lathes, assembly lines, and forms
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10:35 < muurkha> a third way is government regulation; Boeing and, say, BAE have massive departments full of people whose job it is to deal with the government, because that's who determines whether they succeed or fail
10:36 < muurkha> that shades into social networks, a fourth barrier to entry: if the CEO you're selling your product to is in the Social Register, your chances are a lot better if your salesman is also in the Social Register
10:37 < lsneff> How frustrating
10:43 < muurkha> well, I'm not a fan, but capitalism sure beats the alternatives I've seen
10:45 < lsneff> That sounds like cronyism to me
10:45 < muurkha> item #4 is cronyism yeah
10:46 < muurkha> cronyism has always been a big part of capitalism
10:46 < Llamamoe> The problem with non-capitalism is that so far nobody really even tried to implement genuine decentralization of power and wealth, it's all been powergrabs 
10:46 < muurkha> though obviously government-driven industrial policy isn't very capitalist; Boeing and Airbus are in some sense relics of the part of the Cold War when the West feared that Communist central planning was so efficient it would wipe them out
10:47 < muurkha> people try to implement genuine decentralization of power all the time!  they just aren't the ones with power so they fail
10:47 < Llamamoe> In principle, systems like UBI would achieve that - due to the unconditionality, it decentralizes the choice of what should be done with the money
10:47 < muurkha> yeah
10:48 < Llamamoe> Rather than introducing more oversight, we need to find way to actually diffuse wealth and power to the people, through unconditional mechanisms that are not subject to corruption 
10:49 < lsneff> I completely agree
10:49 < muurkha> but being able to choose what should be done with resources can be very profitable, so we see attempts to do that from whoever can get away with it.  Cricut is an example I was looking at this morning: https://hackaday.com/2021/03/15/cricut-decides-to-charge-rent-for-people-to-use-the-cutting-machines-they-already-own/
10:49 < lsneff> It’s surprising that many people don’t get that there’s not a single alternative to capitalism
10:49 < lsneff> That’s disgusting
10:50 < muurkha> sure there is.  feudalism, communism, and warfare are three
10:50 < Llamamoe> I personally believe that one worthwhile idea would be to completely separate private(individual) wealth from public(corporate) wealth, and 1) putting sharp limits on how much of the former one can derive from the latter to prevent absurd cases like millionaires+, and 2) making ALL public wealth 100% transparent 
10:50 < lsneff> I actually feel a disgust reflex from that article
10:50 < Llamamoe> Also 
10:50 < muurkha> if people can't use a new font on their vinyl cutter without paying you for the privilege, you can make a lot of money
10:50 < Llamamoe> Capitalism can be modeled as perpetual loans 
10:51 < muurkha> there are lots of societies in the world that have never begun to practice capitalism.  my mother lived in Micronesia, where capitalism has never been more than a tiny fraction of the economy
10:51 < Llamamoe> Capitalism is basically: You cannot afford the means of production on your own(especially infrastructure), and a company loans them to you, and you use them to earn money. EXCEPT, you never get to pay them off, and you don't even earn the money directly. 
10:52 < lsneff> I don’t think capitalism would be so bad if intellectual property wasn’t controlled
10:52 < muurkha> Llamamoe: right
10:52 < muurkha> the Federated States of Micronesia are officially governed by a democracy, but most day-to-day decisions are made by hereditary clan chiefs (called Nahnmwarki on Pohnpei, other names on other islands)
10:52 < Llamamoe> Capitalism is bad because of the system of incentives and possibilities that it creates 
10:53 < Llamamoe> Regardless of what you control and don't control, incentive to game it to earn more money exists, and more money equals more power to do it 
10:53 < muurkha> right, arguably capitalism is unstable, just like democracy
10:53 < Llamamoe> Markets are a brilliant self-regulating system, but capitalism per se is /really/ pathological
10:54 < muurkha> capitalism only survives as long as nobody achieves monopoly or monopsony; democracy only survives as long as nobody achieves dictatorship
10:54 < muurkha> but where it manages to exist for a while, it produces enormous benefits to human flourishing
10:55 < muurkha> I couldn't get my covid vaccination for six months because Argentina isn't capitalist enough
10:56 < muurkha> same reason the US didn't have a covid vaccine rollout in March 02020: Moderna had to go through eight months of clinical trials before getting permission to stop the pandemic
10:56 < muurkha> I'm not a huge fan of employment but it sure beats serfdom
10:58 < muurkha> (Micronesian subsistence farmers aren't quite serfs because they overthrew the monarchy 400 years ago and are not bonded to their land, but the Nahnmwarki doesn't allow them to save their surplus either)
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11:36 < nsh> 2014 woo from noted cranks at *checks notes* elsevier: https://www.elsevier.com/about/press-releases/research-and-journals/discovery-of-quantum-vibrations-in-microtubules-inside-brain-neurons-corroborates-controversial-20-year-old-theory-of-consciousness
11:36 < nsh> (fuck elsevier though ofc, for copythink reasons)
11:37 < nsh> reviewed by Tuszynski so maybe it's the same cohort
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11:42 < nsh> via "A new facet of the theory is a relationship between microtubule quantum vibrations and EEG brain rhythms. Despite a century of clinical use, the underlying origins of EEG rhythms have remained a mystery. Microtubule quantum vibrations (e.g. in the megahertz frequency range) appear to interfere with and produce much slower EEG frequencies." on 
11:42 < nsh> https://www.quora.com/As-of-yet-is-there-experimental-evidence-to-support-the-Orch-OR-theory-of-consciousness-as-proposed-by-Sir-Roger-Penrose-and-Stuart-Hameroff
12:06 < muurkha> Penrose is a materialist reductivist sage I have a lot of respect for, but I will be very surprised if he turns out to be right about this
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13:54 < maaku> there is less than zero evidence to support. there are reams of evidence against
13:55 < maaku> penrose is confused about consciousness and thereby pursues a god-of-the-gaps strategy to find a way to reject materialism
13:57 < maaku> lsneff: the problem is in thinking that capitalism is an '-ism', and thereby one alternative among many
13:57 < maaku> whereas capitalism is merely what happens when you have economic actors, private property, and the rule of law
13:57 < maaku> it's a natural phenomenon
14:34 < nsh> *at a certain scale, in the absence of certain cultural obstacles
14:35 < nsh> and even then you've got an effective sample of one
14:35 < nsh> so sure, maybe, but it's still an ideological position
14:35 < nsh> i'll concede if we see it elsewhere
14:35 < nsh> other than in the human culture that dominated the others on earth
14:35 < nsh> little capitalism in other superorganisms
14:35 < nsh> or maybe i've been watching the wrong nature documentaries
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14:51 < Llamamoe> nsh: There have been accounts of bonobo/chimpanzees gravitating towards capitalism-like organization in presence of resources sufficiently abundant to trade, hoard, etc
14:53 < nsh> i guess people have differing senses of capitalism
14:53 < nsh> trade is most likely universal
14:53 < nsh> the particular kind of state-corporate-capitalism we have today in most of the 'developed' world is best much more narrowly defined
14:53 < nsh> it's anathema to most of its heroes, for a start
14:54 < nsh> but this is again the wrong place to talk about such things
14:54 < nsh> y'all being largely, ehm, culturally challenged by virtue of geography :)
14:54 < nsh> (as little offence intended as possible)
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16:05 < maaku> nsh: capitalism shows up in all sorts of natural environments. we just use other terms to describe it (e.g. game theory & evolutionary dynamics)
16:06 < nsh> arguable
16:06 < nsh> perhaps because in those contexts there isn't a subclass of the organism who have capital and exploit those which don't
16:06  * nsh shrugs
16:07 < maaku> it's the nature of being a purely local thoery--all participants in a capitalist economy make decisions based on their own needs and the information in front of them
16:08 < nsh> cringeworthy
16:08 < maaku> so long as you have a condition by which actors can accumulate and use property, and in which resource constraints drive efficient behavior, you get capitalism
16:08 < maaku> cringeworthy?
16:08 < nsh> parroting rational actor theory like an innocent
16:08 < nsh> made me cringe
16:08 < nsh> just observing
16:09 < maaku> i don't get it
16:09 < nsh> just like you wouldn't get it if i said ingenue instead of innocent 
16:09 < maaku> Adam Smith's capitalism assumes rational actors. I made no statement about whether human being are actually rational
16:09 < nsh> i can only do so much from here right now while doing seven other things
16:10 < nsh> even adam smith would have cringed
16:10 < nsh> fwiw
16:10 < nsh> he actually had a sophisticated and nuanced analysis
16:10 < nsh> which you might appreciate if you read him
16:10 < nsh> or anyone who's cited him in the last few centuries
16:10 < nsh> including marx
16:10 < nsh> ideally
16:11 < maaku> I have read Smith and Marx. I have no idea what you are objecting to. I suspect you are inferring something different about the word 'rational' and we should taboo the term
16:12 < nsh> eh, it's late and i think a lot faster than i type so it's a painful service being didactic online
16:12 < nsh> perhaps i have no perspective worthy of your attention at present
16:12 < maaku> alright that's fair
16:12 < maaku> cheers.
16:12 < nsh> feel free to indulge the conceit that this is reflective of me :)
16:13 < nsh> i'll just say i've heard similar talking points from people i wouldn't bother talking to
16:13 < nsh> and i consider you someone eminently worth talking to
16:13 < nsh> just not on matters reflective of the cultural condition of the USA-dominated world order
16:14 < nsh> so i should exercise discretionr
16:14 < maaku> yeah I certainly wasn't making a statement about anything related to that
16:14 < nsh> and stick to practical applications of technology and the imagining of a better future for humanity resulting therefrom
16:14 < maaku> there's clearly a huge disconnect here, lol
16:14 < nsh> likely a bandwidth issue and my being subpar intellectually today
16:14 < nsh> proceed unmolested. i'll sleep and keep my peace better in future
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