--- Log opened Tue May 03 00:00:12 2022
00:10 < maaku> .tw 1521345554462224385
00:10 < saxo> Our study on the cost of building lunar landing pads is now available here (co-authored by myself and @GregWAutry): http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=55926 (@DrPhiltill)
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02:17 < adlai> I hadn't realized that Android was such a faithful child of Google; my impression was that it was open source sponsored by them, yet still usable independently.
02:18  * adlai has not written Android programs recently, although uses an Android smartphone and frequently itches to setup the development toolchain for improving various open-source apps that he does use
02:20 < adlai> re: living at the mercy of random others - isn't there some Elon Musk quote about how his goal with Tesla is that, eventually, people not be allowed to drive
02:22 < muurkha> ugh
02:26 < muurkha> so, Termux is apparently *not* broken in recent Androids: https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/FAQ#Will_Termux_work_on_Android_11
02:26 < muurkha> apparently it works fine in 11 and 12-beta
02:26 < muurkha> 'Android security improvements in new versions often become a subject of controversial discussions and recent `execve()` system call restriction by SELinux configuration introduced with Android 10 was not the exception. There lots of misinformation and conspiracy (aka "Google want to kill Linux on Android") from people claiming themselves "advanced users" about what is actually happening.'
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07:00 < docl> ok, I have a vyvanse rx now. will keep a close eye on my blood pressure
07:01 < muurkha> hope that helps!
07:02 < docl> I'm excited :)
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08:08 < superkuh> Finally getting my computers back from the FBI after a decade+.
08:09 < superkuh> I have absolute confidence that some FBI employee, somewhere along the line, will have stolen my bitcoin.
08:09 < kanzure> wow
08:10 < kanzure> did you have to chase it the whole time?
08:10 < superkuh> Nope.
08:10 < superkuh> This is the first contact I've had with them since the day they raided me.
08:11 < superkuh> Brought it all back for a bit, ended up sweating like a pig, shaking, and puking after the phone call. Good memories.
08:11 < superkuh> Apparently my body still remembers the drill.
08:13 < kanzure> wonder if bitrot got to it
08:13 < superkuh> I'll find it in 3-4 weeks.
08:14 < superkuh> find out.
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09:08 < muurkha> oh man, that's terrible
09:08 < muurkha> glad you're getting them back
09:09 < muurkha> you probaby shouldn't have mentioned the bitcoin in public
09:09 < muurkha> just in case you're wrong about that
09:12 < otoburb> superkuh: Did they force you to provide decryption keys/passwords to access the drives? Or were you able/allowed to refuse, and have them attempt themselves?
09:15 < otoburb> It's easy to blithely state that the 5th Amendment should protect individuals from having to disclose keys/passphrases/passwords, but likely 100x harder when the moment actually arrives. 
09:45 < superkuh> I gave them the password to my stuff.
09:46 < adlai> lots of police stuff happens with multiple eyeballs, so theft would require collusion. obviously your investigation may have been different.
09:47 < adlai> it's one thing when a bunch of cops turn a blind eye, or even join in, to physical abuse; it's another thing when they have to decide how to split coins that they consider stealing. completely different mentalities.
09:47 < adlai> docl: are you familiar with volumetric dosing?
09:48 < adlai> it can help to have precise control of your dosage, without needing to get a new prescription each time, and there might not even be pills available in precisely the dosage that you end up considering best.
09:49 < adlai> e.g., when I was taking amphetamine IR, the pills contained ~6.75mg of the CNS stimulant, and the rest was all levoamphetamine; what if I'd wanted doses of exactly five milligrams? shit outta luck.
09:49 < adlai> .wik levoamphetamine
09:49 < saxo> " / .mw-parser-output .ib-chembox{border-collapse:collapse;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .ib-chembox td,.mw-parser-output .ib-chembox th{border:1px solid #a2a9b1;width:40%}.mw-parser-output .ib-chembox td+td{width:60%} /  Levoamphetamine[note 1]| is a central nervous [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levoamphetamine
09:49 < adlai> well that's useless! just like levoamphetamine, lol.
09:50 < adlai> .wik dextroamphetamine
09:50 < saxo> "Dextroamphetamine (D-AMP)[note 1]| is a central nervous system (CNS) stimulant and an amphetamine enantiomer[note 2]| that is prescribed for the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and narcolepsy." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextroamphetamine
09:50 < muurkha> adlai: maybe
09:50 < adlai> levoamphetamine is the almost-useless mirror image; most pills contain a mix of both, in various proportions.
09:50 < muurkha> isn't it better as a decongestant?
09:51 < adlai> afaik, the mental stimulant effects are entirely due to one enantiomer. I have not gone receptor by receptor through the research to confirm this.
09:52 < adlai> the heuristic that I remember from skimming various articles (not journal publications; various online writings, based off journal publications) back when I took it on a daily basis, is that the dextro enantiomer is the mostly-CNS stimulant, and levo is the mostly-peripheral.
09:53 < adlai> I did for a short while take lots of some other phenethylamine for decongestion! iirc that was the usual suspect, pseudoephedrine, although I don't even remember the brand name of the pills by now.
09:54 < adlai> it's a cool story from what was probably the closest I came to being involved in international military conflict, during service.
09:55 < adlai> I was running close to a delirious fever, and was kept on base because "security considerations" did not allow sending me home... few days later, everyone's up by the border with Syria, half an hour away from going to war.
09:55 < adlai> sat around scratching our balls for a week, then left.
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09:56 < adlai> this was 2012, when the Arab Spring was in full swing, and Israel was all "wtf do we do about this"
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10:42 < maaku> docl: congrats! I'm a vyvanse user as well
10:42 < maaku> horribly expensive, but worth it
10:44 < maaku> adlai: you were in the IDF?
10:45 < muurkha> adlai: yeah, they sell the L enantiomer as a non-psychoactive decongestant
10:45 < muurkha> iirc
11:09 < kanzure> .tw https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31250593
11:09 < saxo> Och, A cannae finde nae tweet
11:09 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31250593
11:09 < saxo> Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour | Hacker News
11:09 < kanzure> hmm this seems incorrect
11:09 < docl> my main concern with dissolving the pills would be that it might not be time delayed release any more
11:13 < docl> I've used that approach for nicotine (before I got hooked on a high dose -- I would use 1 mg in a glass of water.)
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11:48 < darsie> Studies showed that smoking cigarettes does not cause cancer.
11:59 < nmz787> pretty sure studies also show that does cause cancer
12:02 < fenn> one wonders if this is an epistemology test
12:02 < fenn> "here's a published study you know to be wrong, now figure out what went wrong with it"
12:03 < fenn> it's not like breed is orthogonal to ancestry
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12:37 < kanzure> https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/
13:41 < kanzure> "Dual use of artificial-intelligence-powered drug discovery" https://www.nature.com/articles/s42256-022-00465-9
13:41 < kanzure> or give shulgin access to it
13:42 < superkuh> shulgin's dead.
13:43 < kanzure> oh yeah
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14:52 < fenn> doooooom
14:57 < fenn> is a chemical that is orders of magnitude more toxic than VX, orders of magnitude "more dangerous" from a policy perspective?
14:58 < muurkha> not in most cases
15:00 < fenn> remind me again why there aren't airtight seals on all buildings
15:02 < muurkha> lack of ventilation has frequently been fatal, while excessive ventilation is only fatal when outdoor condition are fatal, and then rarely
15:02 < muurkha> the humans avoid settling zones where outdoor conditions are often fatal
15:11 < adlai> maaku: yes
15:11 < adlai> 2010 - 2013, pretty much quietest years in recent history.
15:15 < adlai> the kind of cynical utilitarianism stereotypical to you folks would conclude that I did not learn nor do anything useful, and simply wasted three years of my life; e.g., I didn't even learn how to reliably hit a target over 50m away, because that training would've been a waste of ammunition.
15:15 < adlai> well that is not precise; I learned _how_, simply never practiced.
15:16  * adlai was, for lack of better euphemism, a radio babysitter in the artillery corps.
15:17 < adlai> eventually I had enough free time to read books, practice guitar, and study a few online courses, once I had a laptop.
15:18  * adlai shrugs and wanders off
15:18 < fenn> dust to dust
15:20 < fenn> my kind of cynical utilitarianism would say that anything not on the path to immortality and exponential growth would be wasted
15:21 < fenn> i don't really live that way though
15:22 < fenn> if the speed of light remains a barrier, i suppose we'll have to switch to geometric growth
15:22 < fenn> better focus on getting to orbit first :)
15:29 < muurkha> quadratic growth; geometric growth is what happens if the speed of light *doesn't* remain a barrier
15:29 < muurkha> well, cubic I guess
15:51 < nsh> <fenn> my kind of cynical utilitarianism would say that anything not on the path to immortality and exponential growth would be wasted  # love too sit in on the cancer aficionado club meetings
15:51 < nsh> lol
15:52 < nsh> what would like to be when you grow up, little johnny? - oh i don't know maybe anathema to all life and harmony
15:52 < nsh> kiddin' on :)
15:53 < nsh> (to belabour the point, 'cancer' is what we call an organism that chooses exponential growth over programmed senescence)
15:54 < nsh> ("it's bad everywhere else i've looked but maybe it's good when we do it" being an especially particularly homo sapien conceit)
15:54 < nsh> (cf. money)
15:55 < fenn> it's a big empty universe, all going to waste as far as i can tell
15:55 < fenn> literally giant dumpster fires everywhere
15:56 < nsh> or life/consciousness/sentience everywhere but not of a nature that we've socially evolved to appreciate
15:56 < fenn> take a dumpster fire and multiply it by 10^27, that's a star
15:56 < nsh> reasonable philosophies differ on the matter
15:56 < nsh> lol
15:57 < nsh> .wik Panpsychism
15:57 < saxo> " / In the philosophy of mind, panpsychism (/pænˈsaɪkɪzəm/) is the view that the mind or a mindlike aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism
15:58 < fenn> how's that METI project coming along?
15:58 < fenn> oh? you are just sitting silently, contemplating the abstract case of navels?
15:58 < nsh> haven't heard from the sibernian ethnonationalist in a while
15:58 < nsh> *siberian-american
15:59 < nsh> he was the guy from here [freenode] sending me microwave equipment for about two years
15:59 < fenn> the one that wants to be irish?
15:59 < nsh> aye
15:59 < nsh> he's dating an irish lass, or was
15:59 < nsh> spacetechnitian was his nick
15:59 < nsh> *technician
16:00 < fenn> wait so you really were involved in that project?
16:00 < fenn> i was just being snippy
16:00 < nsh> i mean i didn't do anything except make stacks of 80s equipment and waveguides sitting in my shed
16:00 < muurkha> "cancer" is the point of view of the rest of the organism when one part of it decides to declare independence
16:00 < nsh> but the idea was to set up a station
16:00 < nsh> (to receive, not tx)
16:01 < nsh> muurkha, true enough but i'm not sure any cancerous cells can be said to have achieved pirate utopias
16:01 < nsh> but perhaps that's also strongly a matter of perspective
16:01 < muurkha> bacteria, fungi, plant species, and animal species all "choose" exponential growth over programmed senescence
16:01 < fenn> independence is perhaps the wrong word
16:02 < nsh> all still form ecological dynamic equilibrium with other organisms
16:02 < nsh> which seems precluded by the "humanise the galaxy" ambition
16:02 < nsh> at least on current form
16:02 < nsh> god knows we might even evolve some kind of ecological morality
16:02 < muurkha> there's no species I know of which is preprogrammed to stop reproducing after some number of generations.  do you think that at some point dahlias will stop flowering because they've collectively decided that enough dahlias have been born and it's time for the species to sink into programmed senescence?
16:02 < fenn> humans, computronium, whatever.
16:03 < fenn> there is no ecology on the vast majority of celestial bodies
16:03 < nsh> muurkha, it's an emergent property of the interactions
16:03 < nsh> not due to intrinsic of essential nature
16:03 < nsh> whatever that might be
16:03 < nsh> *or
16:03 < nsh> but i don't think it's... subjective... to call cancer a failure mode
16:03 < nsh> however i will entertain that it's contextual to perspective
16:03 < muurkha> HeLa and similar immortal cell lines have maybe achieved such a pirate utopia, but only due to the favorable environment of bio labs
16:04  * nsh nods
16:04 < fenn> remaining on a single planet and going extinct is a failure mode
16:04 < nsh> authors go extinct and yet literature remains
16:04 < nsh> not a failure in my book
16:04 < nsh> perhaps legacy doesn't have to be particular organisms being immortal
16:04 < nsh> and perhaps legacy is preferable
16:04 < nsh> or arguably so
16:04 < muurkha> the problem with cancer in an animal is that it kills the host organism and isn't equipped to survive in the wild without it
16:05 < fenn> you can leave a legacy and i'll go immortal, how's that?
16:05 < nsh> i'd rather see a pyramid than talk to a person who carted rocks about 20000 years ago
16:05 < muurkha> right now humans are doing a pretty good imitation of that with respect to the terrestrial biosphere
16:05 < nsh> indeed
16:05 < nsh> that was my provocational implication
16:06 < fenn> an unoriginal one
16:06 < nsh> the speech from the matrix by agent smith
16:06 < nsh> sure
16:06 < muurkha> thus fenn's imperative to get to orbit first
16:06 < nsh> better to leave a garden than ashes aye
16:07 < fenn> well i just meant it's a bit early to be worrying about how we'll all be buried in horse poop
16:07 < muurkha> not if horse poop is CO₂
16:07 < muurkha> fortunately we seem to be on course to solve that problem
16:07 < fenn> oh, sure, there's a lot of car poop
16:08 < nsh> lol
16:09 < xaete> its more a bit too late to be worrying about how we'll all be buried in horse poop
16:09 < fenn> http://www.researchgate.net/figure/United-States-Farm-based-Horse-Population-1850-2007_fig1_254456029
16:09 < fenn> horse poop was a real logistical issue in the early 20th century
16:10 < xaete> truly, dilution is the solution to pollution
16:10 < fenn> iirc the average lifespan of a city horse was 2 years
16:11 < muurkha> that sounds astoundingly short
16:11 < nsh> they last longer when you turn them into glue
16:12 < muurkha> glue is the legacy of a horse
16:12  * nsh smiles
16:12 < nsh> or betting profits
16:12 < nsh> or boths
16:12 < nsh> *both
16:12 < fenn> betting is a zero sum game
16:12 < nsh> not for the casino
16:13 < nsh> or considering externalities of entertainment and the evolution of the arts of actuary and statistician and mathematician
16:13 < muurkha> no game is "zero sum" for a single player, nsh
16:13 < muurkha> that's what "sum" means
16:13 < fenn> well, the money would have gone somewhere else
16:14 < nsh> money is a circulation indeed
16:14 < nsh> at least when it's being useful
16:14 < nsh> (why do we talk about quantum circuits in which nothing circulates but not money circuits...)
16:14 < fenn> "it's the economy, stupid!"
16:18 < fenn> it seems likely that the spread of interstellar life will encounter challenges besides just the speed of light limit
16:20 < xaete> sth like gene editing of humans to increase iq or other traits thru the germline will prob come first tbh
16:21 < xaete> and its more likely to be near-term (decade) possible
16:24 < maaku> muurkha: quadratic is correct, I think
16:25 < maaku> the sphere of accessible space has expanding surface area of R^2
16:26 < maaku> adlai: cool. time not wasted imho
16:26 < muurkha> maaku: yes, but if you integrate that you get a cubic
16:27 < fenn> that's what i meant by "geometric"
16:27 < muurkha> .wik Geometric growth
16:27 < saxo> "Exponential growth is a process that increases quantity over time. It occurs when the instantaneous rate of change (that is, the derivative) of a quantity with respect to time is proportional to the quantity itself." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_growth
16:28 < muurkha> apologies, I didn't know it was only your terminology that was wrong
16:29 < fenn> huh apparently i didn't know what the phrase meant
16:29 < fenn> sorry
16:29 < maaku> muurkha: we're talking about growth factors though, the derivative
16:30 < fenn> i meant quadratic growth
16:30 < maaku> well in other news twitter just got useless from now until the US election in november, thanks to abortion drama :(
16:30 < muurkha> it's been not only useless but actively harmful for years
16:31 < muurkha> .wik Linear growth
16:31 < saxo> "In mathematics, the term linear function refers to two distinct but related notions: /  In calculus and related areas, a linear function is a function whose graph is a straight line, that is, a polynomial function of degree zero or one." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_growth
16:31 < maaku> depends greatly on who you follow. block early, block often
16:32 < muurkha> maaku: usually when people say "linear growth" they are talking about the case where the size of something is a linear function of time, not where its derivative is a linear function of time, which gives you quadratic growth
16:32 < fenn> i follow 0 people and tend to use twitter in binge-mode
16:32 < muurkha> .wik Quadratic growth
16:32 < saxo> "In mathematics, a function or sequence is said to exhibit quadratic growth when its values are proportional to the square of the function argument or sequence position. 'Quadratic growth' often means more generally 'quadratic growth in the limit', as the argument or sequence [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratic_growth
16:33 < muurkha> similarly, "quadratic growth" means that the *values* are proportional to the square of time; it does not mean that the difference between adjacent values or the derivative is proportional to the square of time
16:34 < maaku> muurkha: hrm, yes you're right
16:35 < maaku> i was thinking of it in terms of physics, were we talk about 1/R^2 laws being quadratic drop off. but that's not in fact what's going on here
16:35 < fenn> i made the assumption that any available resources would be converted into life-like objects relatively instantaneously compared to the travel time
16:38 < maaku> fenn: meh doesn't matter. there's trillions of years to convert all matter to computronium
16:38 < maaku> the key is the expansion rate, how close we can get that to c
16:38 < fenn> in karl schroeder's "permanence" a vast and diverse decentralized network of civilizations is suddenly bulldozed into uniformity by the invention of FTL travel
16:38 < maaku> so that we can reach more galaxies before they recede faster than the speed of light
16:39 < fenn> i'm still not entirely convinced about this whole expansion dealie
16:40 < fenn> i haven't really bothered to investigate it deeply though
16:40 < fenn> it just sounds like the sort of thing that will turn out to have been a measurement error
16:41 < muurkha> just in case, launch starseeds early and often
16:42 < fenn> every second you waste a quadrillion potential civilizations remain unborn...
16:42  * fenn breathes heavily and grips the edges of the desk
16:43 < fenn> am i having a singularitarian crisis?
16:44 < xaete> lol
16:44 < xaete> tbh i "solve" this problem (on a personal level, at least) by just not being a strict utilitarian
16:45 < xaete> and focusing on more short-term things and saying anything longer-term is "far away enough we'll figure it out when we get to it"
16:49 < maaku> fenn: I agree with you on expansionism, although I don't mind the extra urgency it adds
16:53 < maaku> It's so strange to me that conservation of energy is like the one tenet that is never, EVER violated by any theory in physics
16:54 < maaku> and yet when we measure supernovas and infer that some unknown force is expanding the universe, and furthermore doing so at an exponentially incrasing strength... we're just suddenly all cool with that?
16:55 < muurkha> maaku: apparently GR doesn't necessariy conserve energy
16:56 < muurkha> *l
16:56 < fenn> mumble mumble black hole rocket
17:14 < lsneff> maaku: that's why I feel confident that we'll figure out a way around the rocket equation that doesn't involve massive solar infrastructure to laser propulsion
17:14 < lsneff> there's so much we still don't understand about the universe—thinking that our current understanding of our limits will always remain correct is foolish
17:15 < muurkha> starseeds solve the problem without any applied phlebotinum though
17:15 < fenn> antimatter is pretty good and forms naturally in upper atmospheres
17:16 < fenn> what is a starseed? google gives me a bunch of woo
17:16 < muurkha> oh sorry
17:17 < muurkha> .wik Starseed launcher
17:17 < saxo> "Starseed is a proposed method of launching interstellar nanoprobes at one-third light speed. /  The launcher uses a 1,000 km-long small-diameter hollow wire, with electrodes lining the hollow wire, an electrostatic accelerator tube, similar to K. Eric Drexler's ideas.  The [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starseed_launcher
17:18 < lsneff> The exact propulsion mechanism isn't important I suppose
17:19 < xaete> i feel like the starseeds /are/ the phlebotinum
17:20 < lsneff> We're going to get clanking replicators within a few decades I bet, and ML agents are getting really good really fast
17:21 < lsneff> I don't see starseed tech as being unlikely within a few hundred years
17:21 < xaete> yea, but "a few hundred years" is a very long time
17:22 < xaete> (well, not on longtermist scales i guess)
17:22 < lsneff> I think they're likely within 50 years, without a doubt within 100-200
17:26 < xaete> hm, maybe
17:27 < muurkha> xaete: you mean self-replicating nanoprobes?
17:27 < xaete> yea
17:27 < muurkha> bacteria are an existence proof, it's "just" a question of designing bacteria that can reproduce in space
17:27 < xaete> like compared to large-scale inertial confinement fusion (ie. nuclear weapons) as propulsion devices, nanoprobes seem very far away
17:27 < muurkha> and build something more interesting than Nostoc
17:28 < muurkha> yes, plausibly
17:28 < xaete> in the same sense as designing antimatter rockets is "just" a question of separating antimatter-matter pairs quickly
17:28 < muurkha> but in both cases there's no phlebotinum involved; we know every step is physically feasible
17:30 < xaete> in the sense that you wish to encode on a ug-sized chip both a self-replicator and instructions for surviving and evolving more types of environments any bacteria on earth will ever be exposed to, yes
17:31 < xaete> idk, to me stuff like teller-ulam (or ripple-x) powered devices seem much more feasible
17:31 < xaete> in both cases theyre both "engineering problems", but some are harder than others
17:31 < muurkha> yeah, more or less
17:32 < muurkha> but it's a different category of speculation from 00:14 < lsneff> there's so much we still don't understand about the universe—thinking that our current understanding of our limits will always remain correct is foolish
17:32 < lsneff> why is sending bacteria a good thing to do exactly?
17:32 < muurkha> see above WP link
17:33 < lsneff> sending nanomachines is very different from sending bacteria
17:33 < muurkha> a bacterium is one kind of nanomachine, and not the kind we would want to send
17:34 < muurkha> but bacteria demonstrate that self-reproducing nanomachines are feasible (barring a priori implausible vitalist explanations)
17:34 < lsneff> Ah, gotcha
17:37 < muurkha> Mycoplasma genitalium is about a ten-millionth of a microgram
17:37 < xaete> yea, although i'll note that bacteria only work in nice, managed environments (ie. aqueous solutions with light amounts of salts)
17:39 < docl> well the replication cycle doesn't have to be particularly small
17:40 < docl> you could have a small bot that constructs an environment around itself before trying to make copies
17:43 < lsneff> I'm still 
17:43 < lsneff> wrong window, oops
17:48 < fenn> .wik nostoc
17:48 < saxo> "Nostoc, also known as star jelly, troll’s butter, spit of moon, fallen star, witch's butter (not to be confused with the fungi commonly known as witches' butter), and witch’s jelly, is the most common genus of cyanobacteria found in various environments that may form [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostoc
17:48 < fenn> i enjoyed the names
17:48 < maaku> lsneff: black hole rockets
17:48 < maaku> it takes stellar engineering level of capability to create, but one you have one they are mobile direct converters of mass -> energy
17:49 < maaku> comparable to the coinjoiner drives in revelation space
17:49 < muurkha> xaete: yes, and within a narrow temperature range etc., but presumably that's a question of optimizing efficiency rather than physical feasibility
17:54 < lsneff> maaku: yes, but they still follow the rocket equation
17:54 < lsneff> (you also can’t turn them off)
17:56 < muurkha> you can maybe reflect the Hawking radiation back into the black hole when you don't want to use it, but that is not known to be possible
17:57 < maaku> lsneff: technically true re: rocket equation, although with near perfect conversion of rest mass energy to thrust, does it matter?
17:57 < muurkha> since to get your invested mass back in less than geological time the black hole needs to be hot enough to emit mostly hard X-rays
17:57 < muurkha> AFAIK
18:00 < maaku> muurkha: x-ray reflectors exist though. why wouldn't those work?
18:00 < maaku> (there would be waste heat of course)
18:01 < muurkha> x-ray reflectors are AFAIK only effective at glancing angles so I don't think you can reflect much of the X-rays all the way back into the black hole.  but maybe I just haven't thought about the design problem enough
18:02 < muurkha> but at any rate it's not as simple as the white-hot-graphite battery thing where you just stack ceramic foam bricks around your graphite to heat up and reradiate the visible light back into the graphite
18:13 < kanzure> we need more replicants than can be assembled; millions, so we can be trillions more.
18:16 < muurkha> can you clarify?
18:39 < lsneff> It’s a quote from blade runner 2049
18:40 < muurkha> ah
18:50 < lsneff> A black hole that emits X-ray hawking radiation would be like the size of a proton, right?
18:50 < muurkha> no, black holes that large are impractically slow
18:53 < muurkha> according to https://www.vttoth.com/CMS/physics-notes/311-hawking-radiation-calculator a black hole whose peak luminosity is 10 nm (124 eV) has a lifetime of 5.5e28 years
18:53 < lsneff> A proton is way smaller than that
18:54 < muurkha> yes but
18:55 < muurkha> if you cut the lifetime down to 1000 years the Schwarzschild radius shrinks to 1.3e-18 m and the photon energy goes up to 4.7e10 eV (2.6e-8 nm)
18:56 < muurkha> such a black hole gives you 100% efficient conversion of arbitrary matter into photons, yes, but when you put mass in the photons only come out 1000 years later
18:57 < lsneff> It’d be pretty hard to put mass into something that small
18:57 < lsneff> But anyway, good
18:57 < muurkha> that's the main problem, yeah
18:57 < lsneff> I’m wondering if it’d be possible to form an unstable radiation shield of nuclear matter that’s held together by the radiation pressure
18:58 < lsneff> I don’t think it’d have to be too large
18:58 < muurkha> it's not a very good rocket because it weighs almost a million tonnes and its power is only 0.1 megatons per second (4.6e14 watts)
18:58 < muurkha> so you need much smaller ones for black-hole rockets
18:58 < muurkha> at least if this site is correct
18:59 < muurkha> well, black-hole rockets over human timescales
18:59 < lsneff> The smaller the better
18:59 < muurkha> the smaller the hotter, too, though
19:01 < muurkha> even at that scale you're already into cosmic-ray energies — but in the form of photons, not particles with intrinsic mass
19:02 < muurkha> such photons seem like they would have a great deal of penetrating power?
19:03 < lsneff> Not if the nucleons are significantly closer than their wavelength
19:04 < lsneff> If you could hold a bit of nuclear matter, probably not too many nucleons necessary, directly behind the black hole, might reflect the photons
19:04 < muurkha> I don't think they can be; a proton is about 0.9 femtometers in diameter, four orders of magnitude larger
19:05 < lsneff> Maybe a single proton would act as a shield?
19:06 < lsneff> There’d probably be way too much tunneling through it, position uncertainty as well
19:06 < muurkha> also I think that if the proton managed to absorb a photon
19:06 < muurkha> it would gain 5e10 eV of energy, thus becoming an ordinary cosmic ray
19:07 < muurkha> I mean, I could be wrong about all of this.  my knowledge of quantum mechanics is basically nil and I don't understand black holes either
19:09 < lsneff> We gotta get some of this stuff: https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/48630634d2591
19:09 < lsneff> .t
19:09 < saxo> Orion's Arm - Encyclopedia Galactica - Magmatter
19:09 < muurkha> fifty-GeV photons
19:13 < muurkha> there was some interesting speculation about magmatter in Dragon's Egg, which I think was somewhat based on particle physics theories of the 01970s.  since then monopoles have stubbornly failed to appear
19:17 < muurkha> but maybe that's just because existing instruments like the LHC are too wimpy to make them
19:21 < lsneff> Did you ever read those papers on AB-matter?
19:21 < muurkha> no
19:22 < lsneff> They’re almost certainly written by a crank
19:22 < lsneff> But it is interesting
19:22 < muurkha> like I said, my knowledge of quantum mechanics is basically nil, so I can't read papers
19:22 < muurkha> I'm doing good if I manage to use a JS black hole calculator and read wikipedia
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19:37 < muurkha> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_ray#Matter_interaction seems to show that matter absorption of photons usually decreases with energy but levels off above 1 MeV due to pair production
19:40 < muurkha> it occurred to me that maybe such high-energy photons might produce matter-antimatter pairs before they went very far, but that doesn't seem to be the case; even TeV photons reach us from quasars, so they can apparently travel through vacuum for billions of years
19:41 < muurkha> but apparently they do when they tangle with the high electric fields present in condensed matter
19:41 < muurkha> ...typically after traveling a distance on the order of a centimeter
19:44 < muurkha> anyway I have no idea how you would cram a million tonnes of matter into an attometer-diameter space to produce a black hole but the only plausible mechanism that occurs to me is to use even higher-energy photons
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19:46 < lsneff> There’s literature about producing kugelblitzes with gamma ray lasers
19:47 < fenn> muurkha: robert forward described what was apparently an actual nuclear bomb design in his book "camelot 30k" which involved successively plating thin layers of heavier and heavier elements onto an ellipsoid form. the grazing reflection from one layer turned into a grazing reflection from the next layer below that, and so on, such that the x-rays emitted by a plutonium fission core at one focal
19:47 < fenn> point of the ellipsoid would be focused onto a fusion initiator located in the other focal point
19:47 < fenn> with this type of construction, one could make other sorts of x-ray optics that involve greater turning angles than a single glance
19:50 < fenn> the "black hole rocket" i was thinking of involved shooting pellets into a tight orbit around the black hole, and somehow they picked up energy, but i forget the details
19:50 < fenn> maybe an extreme version of the oberth effect involving radioactive decay?
19:51 < lsneff> I remember hearing about that
19:51 < lsneff> I think it didn’t involve radiation
19:51 < fenn> something got blue shifted anyway
19:51 < lsneff> Rather, it was shooting lasers through the ergosphere, which get blue shifted and pull energy from the black hole
19:52 < fenn> it was like, you have a ship, and it flings pellets at the black hole on a trajectory such that the pellets return to the ship and transfer both energy and momentum to it
19:52 < fenn> why do the lasers get blue shifted?
19:52 < lsneff> Weird stuff happens in the ergosphere
19:54 < fenn> totally unrelated, but interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Wearing#Amnesia
19:58 < muurkha> fenn: I think that will only work for X-rays of some 2-4 orders of magnitude lower energies
19:58 < muurkha> but that's just my intuition
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23:53 < maaku>  muurkha why do you care what the lifetime of the black hole is?
23:54 < maaku> I don't get this: "if you put mass in, the photons only come out 1000 years later"
--- Log closed Wed May 04 00:00:07 2022