--- Log opened Wed May 04 00:00:07 2022
--- Day changed Wed May 04 2022
00:00 < maaku> muurkha lsneff: if stable strange matter is possible (which is entirely possible, but not expected), then they are likely to exist in the cores of asteroids
00:00 < maaku> (and planets and stars, but asteroids are more accessible)
00:01 < maaku> It would be a pellet of suuuuuper dense material at the gravitational core of the body
00:02 < maaku> it would be much easier to create a black hole rocket out of a critial mass of this material, if it exists
00:03 < maaku> otherwise the best I've read about is a solar-system sized mass accelerator that brings two multi-megaton, perfectly atomically precise hunks of iron to very close to the speed of light
00:04 < maaku> then have them hit each other head-on while simultaneously subjecting them to nuclear implosion forces on an unimaginable scale
00:06 < maaku> no doubt we will find more manageable ideas in time
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02:13 < adlai> maaku: are you familiar with the details of Hawking radiation?
02:13  * adlai is not
02:13 < adlai> .wik Hawking Radiation
02:13 < saxo> "Hawking radiation is thermal radiation that is theorized to be released outside a black hole's event horizon because of relativistic quantum effects." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_Radiation
02:14 < adlai> nice wikipedian hedging, there; my impression from popsci coverage was that this is approximately as theorized as evolution by natural selection, although I'm wrong more often than not.
02:15  * adlai does recall some comment to the tune of "No matter how long Stephen lives, his prediction of the eponymous Radiation will never win a Nobel Prize, because it's not confirmable by any apparatus humans will build before muurkha starts prefixing units instead of ciphers."
02:16 < adlai> my guess is that muurkha's "1000 years later" is the length of an interval measured along a reference frame far outside of the black hole's event horizon.
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04:13 < nsh> (from a reference frame outside the event horizon the mass doesn't even get 'in')
04:14 < nsh> (it's almost impossible to have an intuition about black holes that matches the mathematics and observations such as they are, which is scant to say the least.)
04:15 < nsh> what we see about BH modulo the gravitation wave results is infalling matter and extreme magnetic accelerations all of which are happening quite some ways out from the EH
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04:25 < adlai> why is my complaint still "why are y'all such pessimists?"!?
04:26 < adlai> study a smidgeon of topology and black holes become much less unintuitive; granted, 'smidgeon' is approximately as precise a measure as 'thimble' [of whiskey].
04:29 < adlai> I guess the least technical simile I can yank off the top of my head is that observing an event horizon is similar to staring upwards from beneath the surface of a frothy swimming pool.
04:31 < adlai> in this analogy, hadrons approaching the event horizon are the bubbles.
04:31 < adlai> .wik hadron
04:31 < saxo> "In particle physics, a hadron /ˈhædrɒn/ (listen) (Ancient Greek: ἁδρός, romanized: hadrós; 'stout, thick') is a composite subatomic particle made of two or more quarks held together by the strong interaction." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadron
04:31 < adlai> .wik fermion
04:31 < saxo> "In particle physics, a fermion is a particle that follows Fermi–Dirac statistics. Generally, it has a half-odd-integer spin: spin ''`UNIQ--templatestyles-00000004-QINU`''1/2, spin 3/2, etc. In addition, these particles obey the Pauli exclusion principle." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermion
04:32 < adlai> the more general term is probably more correct, in this case.
04:33  * adlai remains unconvinced that anything actually obeys Bose-Einstein statistics, especially adjacent to event horizons.
04:36 < adlai> nsh: what do you mean by "modulo ... results" ?
04:36 < nsh> the gravity waves from a merger can be said to be generated 'at' the black hole
04:37 < nsh> whereas everything else we observe isn't
04:37 < nsh> except thermal radiation which is below the noise floor 
04:37 < nsh> even that's a bit... woolly
04:37 < adlai> the same abuse of language that could say plane waves are generated at infinity?
04:37 < nsh> mebbes
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04:38 < nsh> the singularity is definitively nonfinite else it wouldn't be singular
04:38  * nsh awaits muurkha correction lol
04:38  * adlai is not aware of BH configurations that localise the entire mass into one point; aren't they always shaped in some way?
04:39 < nsh> there are ring singularities
04:39 < nsh> and probably more interesting shapes
04:39 < nsh> but that's besides the point i was trying to make
04:39 < nsh> it's the event horizon itself where [on approach to] intuition fails
04:39 < nsh> not what's 'inside'
04:39 < nsh> which is strongly still a matter of debate and creative imagination
04:40  * adlai was of the impression that event horizons always have e.g. finite surface area
04:40 < nsh> finite surface area but not finite approach extent
04:40 < nsh> hence it taking 'forever' for things to infall
04:40 < nsh> relative to external observers
04:41 < nsh> think of those toys you put pennies into and they whirl around a hyperbolic surface
04:41 < nsh> and as that angle approaches vertical you consider the distance to go to infinity
04:41 < nsh> something like that
04:42 < nsh> but those analogies are weak too
04:42 < nsh> 3b1b did something better but it's harder to grasp
04:43 < nsh> or was that someone else hnnn
04:43 < adlai> I'm not a big fan of popularisation videos. even the ones that start off with rigor tend to suddenly skip proofs that I expected them to describe in full detail.
04:43 < adlai> they are excellent for TED-talkish "cool, somebody understands something, and knows how to convince me that they do, too!"
04:44 < nsh> this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrwgIjBUYVc
04:44 < nsh> .t
04:44 < saxo> A new way to visualize General Relativity - YouTube
04:44 < nsh> the day anyone in here can follow a proof of black hole solution to the einstein field equations with perfect rigour is the day i'll tell them they're in the wrong place
04:45 < adlai> I've seen the kind of toy you described in museums; 'toy' is not the word I'd use, although maybe they've shrunk since the years when the penny deposit ramps were at my eye level.
04:45 < nsh> nah it's not that bad i guess
04:45 < nsh> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivation_of_the_Schwarzschild_solution
04:45 < nsh> just need to remember a lot of dull fundamentals
04:45 < nsh> or learn them
04:45 < nsh> yeah they're about 7-10 year old height
04:46 < nsh> and Schwarzschild is using a bunch of simplification assumptions
04:46 < adlai> I think they're a reasonable metaphor, because you can ask someone to estimate the angular momentum of the coin, and compare that to the distance travelled by various parts of the coin, without actually climbing onto the thing and measuring.
04:46 < adlai> at a certain point, it escapes your ability to measure, simply by virtue of the table's shape.
04:47  * nsh nods
04:47 < nsh> "Another trajectory of a test mass around a spinning (Kerr) black hole. Unlike orbits around a Schwarzschild black hole, the orbit is not confined to a single plane, but will ergodically fill a toruslike region around the equator." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr_metric#/media/File:Generic_geodesic_orbit_around_a_Kerr_black_hole.png
04:47 < nsh> simple see...
04:50 < nsh> even this visualisation would fall apart at infinite curvature: https://youtu.be/wrwgIjBUYVc?t=586
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07:54 < kanzure> https://www.alcor.org/2022-conference/
08:21 < lsneff> Sounds fun
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08:27 < muurkha> maaku: you care aboutthe lifetime of the black hole because you're investing matter in it to get energy out
08:28 < muurkha> maaku: also, in the context of a black hole rocket, the thrust you get out is divided by the mass of the rocket
08:31 < muurkha> getting energy out 1000 years later is not nearly as good as getting energy out next week or next month
08:35 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/black-holes/
08:39 < nsh> although those harnessing black holes for energy might think/plan/act on timescales for which 1kY is not very long
08:39 < nsh> who writes about this a lot
08:40 < nsh> one of these maybe: https://teddit.net/r/printSF/comments/8lr55x/works_based_on_black_hole_civilizations/
08:40 < nsh> ah yes Baxter uses them a fair bit
08:41 < nsh> must read more scifi on pulp or e-ink
08:41 < nsh> .wik Superradiance scattering
08:41 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superradiance_scattering gave 404 | Searched en for 'Superradiance scattering' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
08:41 < nsh> .wik Black hole bomb
08:41 < saxo> "A black hole bomb is the name given to a physical effect utilizing how a bosonic field impinging on a rotating black hole can be amplified through superradiant scattering." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_bomb
08:41 < juri_> i don't think debating things that require thousand year timelines makes much sense, while we don't have thousand year lifetimes. </partypooper>
08:42 < nsh> says somebody who's never enjoyed a forest
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08:43 < juri_> ... not one that hasn't been clear cut. yay, capitalism!
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09:04 < muurkha> juri_: condolences.  there *are* some old-growth forests in the US btw, you can visit them now that the covid control measures are slackening
09:05 < muurkha> also Brazil
09:06 < muurkha> nsh: the way I see it, getting a 20% return on investment is always better than getting an 0.1% return on investment
09:15 < lsneff> the us has a lot of old forests
09:15 < lsneff> the state parks here are really a triumph
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09:30 < muurkha> I wouldn't say "a lot"
09:31 < muurkha> a third of all forests are old-growth forests but only a small fraction of those are in the US
09:32 < muurkha> the US's current old-growth forests are about 10% of what there were only a short 500 years ago
09:33 < muurkha> (compared to over 20% worldwide)
09:34 < nsh> tres sad :( 
09:34 < muurkha> but compared to the Netherlands or Germany or the UK it's a lot I guess
09:34 < nsh> très douloureux
09:35 < nsh> 2.5% of land area here classed as 'ancient' out of 13% forest
09:36 < nsh> "The area of woodland in the UK at 31 March 2021 is estimated to be 3.23 million hectares. This represents 13% of the total land area in the UK, 10% in England, 15% in Wales, 19% in Scotland and 9% in Northern Ireland."
09:36 < nsh> - https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/tools-and-resources/statistics/statistics-by-topic/woodland-statistics/
09:37 < nsh> .units 60999 / 323000 in percent
09:37 < saxo> 	60999 / 323000 = 18.885139 percent 	60999 / 323000 = (1 / 0.052951688) percent 
09:37 < muurkha> large parts of Canada are pretty natural but do not contain forest
09:38 < nsh> .t https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/14/trees-uk-native-woodlands-reaching-crisis-point
09:38 < saxo> UK’s native woodlands reaching crisis point, report warns | Trees and forests | The Guardian
09:38 < muurkha> clearly we should turn much of the asteroid belt into spinning space habitats in which we can plant forests
09:39 < muurkha> in 300 years we can have more old-growth forest than ever existed before
09:39 < nsh> assuming i guess some level of yet-untestable adaptability of the species
09:40 < nsh> but probably plausible enough
09:40 < muurkha> no, adapt the asteroids to the trees, not the other way around
09:40 < nsh> sure but i'm guessing you can't fully get all variables the same
09:40 < muurkha> no, clearly not
09:40 < nsh> gravity is easy enough but the hydrodynamic climate might be a bit tougher
09:40 < nsh> i have no idea in detail though
09:41 < nsh> i mean closed habitats have been proven
09:41 < muurkha> Dyson's idea of trees engineered to live unprotected in space is appealing but not pleasant
09:41 < muurkha> closed habitats haven't been that successful yet
09:41 < nsh> artificial magnetospheres are discussed but usually in the context of mars
09:42 < nsh> .t https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46759.20
09:42 < saxo> Rotating Habitats and Asteroids
09:42 < nsh> i guess if you're under enough metal/rock you don't need magnetic protection from solar wind and cosmic rays
09:43 < muurkha> or just glass
09:43 < muurkha> artificial magnetospheres are an interesting idea
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10:23 < nsh> nasa forum thread raises good point that many asteroids may not have strong intrinsic coherence ('rubble piles')
10:24 < nsh> but once you can start mining and smelting and shuffling them about it's not a huge problem i guess
10:25 < muurkha> yeah, you can't really grow unmodified trees on an unmodified asteroid.  they don't have atmospheres
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12:38 < kanzure> https://proposals.deepfunding.ai/collaborate/f3a4c67e-06f2-4a78-90a3-853b4d69c39e
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14:28 < juri_> wow. what?
14:28 < juri_> *reads the strengths*
14:30 < juri_> i feel like i'm not microdosing enough ketamine to understand this.
14:40 < nsh> it's a very convoluted and bullshitting way of saying "we'd like a bunch of money for old rope and hope because buzzwords and dreams"
14:41 < nsh> although tbf only suggesting they want $40k is a minor plus mark
14:41 < nsh> but most of the time somehow goals are massively exceeded whereas the extent of this excess is almost never translated into delivered deliverables
14:41 < nsh> aka 'results'
14:41 < nsh> instead of all this marketing copy
14:42 < nsh> what i'd find respectable would be some actual smart contract code and then some simulated/wargamed actual empirical data on how the DAO might evolve on the basis of realistic developments and goals
14:43 < nsh> which isn't impossible - people make decent enough tabletop and computer games all the time which require some meaningful testing of how the rules vs game theory vs human individual and collective psychology and strategy work
14:43 < nsh> instead it's all blather and dreams
14:43 < nsh> and a very high relative frequency of intense disappointment
14:44 < nsh> because the whole sector is awash with speculative capital and people who are almost consciously complicit in becoming marks
14:45 < nsh> then again to be fair it's not the worst pitch i've seen
14:45 < nsh> but yeah, talk is cheap
15:09 < fenn> what's the next bubble after cryptocurrency pops
15:09 < fenn> i need to get in on the ground floor and sell out first
15:09 < fenn> i mean, uh, buy-in
15:10 < fenn> it's webassembly isn't it
15:10 < fenn> god dammit
15:14 < juri_> it's ketamine. ssh, it's a secret.
15:20 < kanzure> pyscript looks bubblicious
15:20 < kanzure> you could always get some webcash
15:25 < kanzure> https://webcasa.app/?receive=e100%3Asecret%3A572aa217e0a1e85f0a5f1e9f02e82b9aab16d05b4beac4580aa6381e1c725101&memo=
15:33 < fenn> is the "secret" field just a random number? i didn't see any spec
15:35 < kanzure> yes
15:36 < kanzure> there's a reference client no spec https://github.com/kanzure/webcash/blob/4718ffa91ec6bef4863718d46353068ce7247d93/webcash/walletclient.py#L411
15:39 < kanzure> https://webcash.org/webcash-slides.pdf
15:46 < fenn> what's the point of decentralized mining?
15:47 < fenn> is it just to keep the supplier of money honest?
15:47 < fenn> no inflation possible
15:50 < fenn> like webgold i guess
15:50 < fenn> e-gold
15:52 < fenn> if there are restrictions forbidding you to talk about it, say nothing
15:55 < kanzure> it's so that the server is not issuing a security
15:55 < kanzure> howey test sees all, howey test knows all
15:57 < fenn> what's the thing that preceded bitcoin by a decade or so, where computers would grind out some hashes with a fixed number of leading zeroes, but it didn't have a difficulty rating, it's just that older "hash gold" was worth more than newer hashes, because computing power got cheaper
15:57 < kanzure> adam back made https://hashcash.org/ but that was more used to stamp email with proof-of-work hashes
15:57 < kanzure> there was also this thing https://nakamotoinstitute.org/finney/rpow/
15:57 < fenn> i think it was shortly before that, in the same general circles
15:58 < fenn> oh it was "bit gold"
15:58 < kanzure> https://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2005/12/bit-gold.html
15:59 < fenn> good to see his blog hasn't disappeared yet
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16:35 < maaku> muurkha: as far as I understand it (and I did my undergrad in physics, but general relativity is grad school stuff), it's not like you add mass to a black hole and you literally get the same spike of energy out 1000 years later (or whatever)
16:35 < maaku> the black hole emits radiation at whatever temperature it is, which is a function of its mass
16:36 < maaku> you actually would be adding mass to decrease the power of the black hole rocket and extend its lifetime, since a smaller black hole is more powerful
16:37 < maaku> ...sortof. in reality adding mass will cause an x-ray flash as the matter breaks apart and gets compressed approaching the event horizon, and this could be a sortof "afterburner" mode of operation
16:38 < kanzure> why do i recognize this person? https://malankazlev.com/
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16:40 < fenn> orion's arm?
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16:41 < fenn> "solarpunk" is the dumbest thing ever
16:44 < fenn> the aesthetic is an impoverished and clumsy imitation of art nouveau
16:45 < fenn> like if you drew everything with crayons held in a fist
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16:51 < maaku> muurkha: I think what you're missing from your intuition is that the black hole energy emitted goes *up* as it evaporates
16:51 < kanzure> ah, orion's arm
16:51 < maaku> so you're adding mass to keep it stable, not to provide thrust or something
17:03 < kanzure> https://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/discussing-money-on-ning
17:05 < kanzure> jojack posted before satoshi https://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/abundance-the-journal-of-post
17:07 < kanzure> why wasn't there ever a non-extraterrestrial SETI
17:09 < kanzure> i guess that would be SHTI
17:10 < fenn> the search for hellish terrestrial intelligence? we'd send ceramic high pressure atomic powered probes deep beneath the magma of the earth, looking for a new form of life
17:14 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Lemuria now why would they need to dig to a depth of 18 meters
17:33 < muurkha> maaku: that is true
17:34 < muurkha> I mean I knew all of that
17:35 < muurkha> but what you want is thrust and what you spend to get it is mass
17:45 < kanzure> huh this is still around http://adciv.org/Main_Page
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18:01 < kanzure> opencoin vs ripple https://groups.google.com/g/rippleusers/c/EGt1VISuUQA
18:05 < kanzure> interesting to see jtimon there
18:05 < fenn> what happened with "Abundance: The Journal of Post-Scarcity Studies
18:05 < fenn> in the long run
18:07 < kanzure> fenn: oh he's still interested in that, he phoned me the other day talking about an abundance conference he is putting together
18:08 < kanzure> https://web.archive.org/web/20110730163629/http://ripple-project.org/Protocol/CommitBlockChain
18:08 < kanzure> oh amiller was also posting https://groups.google.com/g/rippleusers/c/NgdY-hRCoyE
18:23 < kanzure> and mike hearn https://groups.google.com/g/rippleusers/c/1GsQzGv9Y14
18:24 < muurkha> <3
18:30 < kanzure> https://web.archive.org/web/20070518045226/http://www.digitalmoneyworld.com/ecache-anonymous-digital-bearer-certificates/
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19:41 < fenn> is there still momentum in the whole abundance thing? i haven't really heard much along those lines since 2012 or so, could be just where i hang out
19:41 < fenn> there was that "end of the great stagnation?" thing but it seems like that's more about scientific progress than the sheer quantity of stuff available
19:43 < muurkha> solarpunk is all about abundance
19:44 < muurkha> but covid brought pessimism into fashion
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19:46 < muurkha> also I think abundance and reducing scarcity has been more popular in China than in, say, the US, for about the last 30 years
19:56 < maaku> kanzure: ripple was where all the cool kids hung out back in the day
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22:20 < fenn> muurkha: "abundance" in this sense is the general abolition of scarcity, for pretty much everything you would need as a human in material goods
22:21 < fenn> so "reducing scarcity" doesn't really count
22:21 < fenn> solarpunk is all about making do with less, which is absolutely not the same thing
22:34 < maaku> .t https://ciechanow.ski/mechanical-watch/
22:34 < saxo> Mechanical Watch – Bartosz Ciechanowski
22:35 < maaku> I can't get into solarpunk for that very reason. It feels dystopian to me, in a way that the cannonical cyberpunk is not
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22:38 < maaku> To have society frozen and simply making do is devoid of purpose. Even without scarcity, it's still a meaningless existence.
22:39 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@user/malvolio] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:39 < lsneff> Solarpunk doesn’t strike me like that
22:40 < lsneff> .tw 1522073156328079360
22:40 < saxo> Coldflow/atomization tests #4 and #5 completed today before our hotfire test on Sunday! // Here’s coldflow #4. https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1522073086237061121/pu/vid/640x360/fN-XfjzhPFNfiiqA.mp4?tag=12 (@lachlansneff)
22:44 < fenn> lsneff: gratz, looks like a real pintle injector
22:44 < fenn> does changing the O/F ratio change the angle of the cone produced?
22:46 < lsneff> Yes
22:46 < lsneff> It’s a function of the ratio it seems
22:46 < fenn> hm i was just reading about nausicaa and the valley of the wind earlier.. supposedly it's solarpunk
22:46 < lsneff> We had to try a couple of times to dial down the timing of the oxidizer and fuel release
22:48 < lsneff> There is some really interesting fluid dynamics happening at the annular ring
22:48 < lsneff> Anyway, I’m slightly drunk and am heading to bed
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22:55 < lsneff> nausicaa and the valley of the wind is one of my favorite movies
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--- Log closed Thu May 05 00:00:14 2022