--- Log opened Mon May 09 00:00:18 2022
01:13 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:52 -!- L29Ah [~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:39 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-78-102-216-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #hplusroadmap
04:07 -!- mirage335316959 [~mirage335@172.58.191.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
05:00 -!- xaete [~user12345@2607:9880:1a40:73:96f7:898:c22d:77c9] has joined #hplusroadmap
05:42 -!- Moon [~Moon@167.102.183.144] has joined #hplusroadmap
05:44 -!- Moon [~Moon@167.102.183.144] has quit [Client Quit]
05:45 -!- Moon [~Moon@167.102.183.144] has joined #hplusroadmap
05:45 -!- Moon [~Moon@167.102.183.144] has quit [Client Quit]
06:28 -!- xaete [~user12345@2607:9880:1a40:73:96f7:898:c22d:77c9] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
06:42 < kanzure> hmph
06:47 < kanzure> "ZKAttest: Ring and group signatures for existing ECDSA keys" https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/1183.pdf
07:02 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0::93] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:25 -!- xaete [~user12345@wn-campus-nat-129-97-124-7.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:42 < docl> .wik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermatogonial_stem_cell#Transplantation
07:42 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermatogonial_stem_cell gave 404 | Searched en for 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermatogonial stem cell#Transplantation' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
07:42 < docl> .title
07:42 < saxo> "A spermatogonial stem cell (SSC), also known as a type A spermatogonium, is a spermatogonium that does not differentiate into a spermatocyte, a precursor of sperm cells." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermatogonial_stem_cell
07:44 < docl> I wonder if it's safer to implant SSCs engineered in vitro than to transfect existing ones in vivo
07:46 < docl> wiki is inconsistent, elsewhere it says type B which makes the sperm cells is also a kind of SSC
07:52 < kanzure> it's certainly easier to implant engineered SSCs
07:52 < kanzure> yashgaroth: ^
07:54 < yashgaroth> yeah as long as you can grow them in vitro, it's much safer and easier. If you just inject a bunch of CRISPR and/or viruses into your balls you can have off-target genomic insertions, potentially leading to cancer
07:56 < yashgaroth> growing them in vitro happily, ie without them having weird epigenetic drift and/or just dying, is way more difficult though. Compared to their happy stem cell niche in vivo, even the most engineered 3d-printed petri dish bathed in exotic growth factors can't really compare
07:58 < docl> ahh, that makes a heck of a lot of sense
08:00 < yashgaroth> think of it like uh, engineering psychological control of a human. First option is feed marketing into their daily lives and hoping for the best, second option is forced reeducation camp
08:02 < docl> I wonder why/how cell differentiation evolved to be so complex/multifactoral? Are there chemical processes by which the cells acquire a 3d map of where they are in an organ and thus how they should differentiate?
08:04 < docl> kind of seems like there has to be, given there's not something more centralized that keeps track and says "hey you, be a [given type] cell"
08:07 < yashgaroth> biology's messy, though that's a reason and not an excuse. Adult stem cells aren't just floating around like any other Joe Q Cell, they have a special niche surrounded by support cells and whatnot. Helps to protect them from chemical damage, viruses etc since if a regular cell gets infected/damaged, nbd, but if a stem cell acquires mutations then that means all of its millions of daughter cells will too
08:08 < yashgaroth> they don't necessarily know where they are in an organ, devolopmental biology tries to figure out body planning and cell differentiation but it's fiendishly complex. Usually it's just 'oh we knocked out this gene and now this fly has legs for antennae' but there's no grand understanding yet
08:09 < yashgaroth> oftentimes, from what we can tell, it is a combination of chemical (usually protein) gradients, along with contact-based signalling directly between cells
08:12 < yashgaroth> the challenge is also that every cell really just wants to be two cells, which often wouldn't jive well with keeping a large organism functional. Saying 'no that's enough liver plz stop' is a big part of it, not just what shape it becomes
08:13 < yashgaroth> and a lot of differentiation is maintained by epigenetic controls, mostly CpG methylation to turn off genes for tissues that the cell isn't, but there's plenty of transcription factor and histone-based control too
08:15 < docl> makes sense that since adult stem cells usually are organ specific, so no need for them to 3d model the whole body so much as respond to the cells around them in the organ (or specific part of the organ). kind of like using local variables in a function. but of course there are global ones too, which sows chaos
08:19 < yashgaroth> yeah most organs you just need to maintain proper layers, eg skin or digestion or blood vessels, or basically just a blob, eg liver/muscle/blood/fat. Things like neurons and healing are...beyond the scope of IRC
08:20 < docl> "chemical (usually protein) gradients" <- gradient in how often you encounter the given molecule based on where you're located? so scads of different proteins are constantly emitted and recycled just to tell other cells how close they are to what
08:22 -!- xaete [~user12345@wn-campus-nat-129-97-124-7.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:23 < yashgaroth> you've got autocrine/paracrine/endocrine signaling which does a lot of work, but I know it mostly in adult organism homeostatis and less so for developmental purposes. Generally if you can orient cells into sheets or layers, that does a lot of the work too, look at basal lamina for example
08:26 < yashgaroth> it's much more reliable when the signals are bound to the cell surface, so that you can be sure of what your neighbor cell is doing, rather than relying on concentration gradients of free-floating signals. But there's still plenty of that
08:27 -!- xaete [~user12345@wn-campus-nat-129-97-124-2.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:28 < docl> gotcha
08:42 < kanzure> docl: https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/in-vitro-fertilization/?C=M;O=D
09:08 < docl> spiroligomer approach lets you do APM membranes, cf this kidneyX prize won by schafmeister https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a-nvGzVJt0
09:11 < docl> maybe you could use that to bootstrap good enough cell enclosures (exo-cells?) that you can make a given cell think it's in exactly the part of the body you want. the factors could be in a homogeneous mixture outside, with the membrane selectively being permeable (with directionality, so you can have more of a factor coming from one side vs the other)
09:23 -!- xaete [~user12345@wn-campus-nat-129-97-124-2.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
09:40 < kanzure> .title https://github.com/m-labs/migen
09:40 < saxo> GitHub - m-labs/migen: A Python toolbox for building complex digital hardware
09:44 -!- xaete [~user12345@2607:9880:1a40:73:c55c:3367:752f:4371] has joined #hplusroadmap
11:06 -!- L29Ah [~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
11:13 < lsneff> Amaranth is where the migen->nmigen uses have gone
11:13 < lsneff> https://github.com/amaranth-lang/amaranth
11:30 < kanzure> https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor
13:26 < nmz787> https://google.github.io/xls/
13:33 -!- mirage335 [~mirage335@64.79.52.86] has joined #hplusroadmap
13:55 -!- L29Ah [~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:05 -!- L29Ah [~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
15:28 -!- L29Ah [~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:48 -!- spaceangel [~spaceange@ip-78-102-216-202.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:37 -!- mirage335 [~mirage335@64.79.52.86] has quit [Quit: Client closed]
19:06 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
19:22 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffffff@2601:5c4:c780:6aa0::93] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:01 -!- mirage335 [~mirage335@64.79.52.86] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:24 -!- maaku_ is now known as maaku
22:39 -!- faceface [~faceface@user/faceface] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
--- Log closed Tue May 10 00:00:19 2022