--- Log opened Thu May 19 00:00:27 2022
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05:56 < kanzure> beep boop
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06:29 < kanzure> hmm i wonder if there has been anything interesting at igem lately
06:29 < kanzure> team registrations are closing in a week
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06:41 < lsneff> never even heard of moneypox before
06:42 < lsneff> here we go again
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10:09 < muurkha> moneypox is not my favorite aspect of money
10:09 < saxo> muurkha: <|\n> https://i.imgur.com/DUNEwSQ.png
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12:25 < fenn> ripple implicitly has this concept of "dollars" which doesn't really make sense
12:25 < fenn> is it pegged to USD? are they "abstract dollars" in some way? what happens to ripple if USD goes zimbabwe levels of inflation?
12:26 < fenn> shouldn't it just be barter?
12:26 < muurkha> not familiar
12:26 < fenn> https://ripple.ryanfugger.com/
12:26 < fenn> very old DIY currency system
12:26 < kanzure> https://rumplepay.com/
12:27 < kanzure> pre-bitcoin
12:28 < muurkha> yeah, I've heard of it, but I'm not familiar with how it works
12:29 < fenn> from the (original) ripple faq: "If you have accounts in several different currency units, and view your overall balance in any one currency (usually your default display units), your overall balance will fluctuate slowly over time as the exchange rates between currency units change."
12:29 < fenn> complicating things is this other thing called "ripple" which is same same but different
12:31 < muurkha> I find all this money stuff to be a headache and kindof wish it would just go away
12:31 < muurkha> I probably would not be happier if I got my wish
12:31 < fenn> i think that was the point of ripple but it got subsumed by crypto-shysters
12:31 < kanzure> that's how i felt in 2008-2009
12:31 < kanzure> there were so many open currency proposals at the time
12:31 < muurkha> how did you get better, kanzure?
12:31 < kanzure> it was relentless
12:31 < kanzure> oh i took the orange pill
12:31 < kanzure> now everything feels fiiiinne
12:32 < kanzure> the annoying thing was that most of the proposals were non-technical in nature
12:32 < muurkha> LETSystems
12:32 < kanzure> lots of those
12:32 < muurkha> Lietaer, demurrage
12:32 < kanzure> bitcoin was fresh because it had very different ideas, all of which i immediately rejected http://gnusha.org/2009-01-10.log
12:32 < muurkha> I'd like to believe that creating material abundance will eliminate the need to think about these things so much, but I suspect that in practice they'll just get more complicated and error-prone
12:33 < kanzure> oops bad link
12:33 < kanzure> https://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-10.log
12:33 < muurkha> yeah, my concern with bitcoin wasn't that it wouldn't work but that it would, and I kind of depend on tax money for things like emergency medical care and highways and stuff
12:33 < fenn> bitcoin has a lot of implicit feedback loops which were not very well explained
12:34 < kanzure> strangely enough, i thought i had received an email from satoshi in january 2009 but the earliest email i see from satoshi in my inbox is february 2009
12:34 < kanzure> so how did i hear about bitcoin on january 10?
12:34 < fenn> well what's the earliest mention of "bitcoin"
12:34 < kanzure> in our logs? that was it.
12:34 < fenn> in your mailbox
12:35 < muurkha> but last year I've found out how badly I can expect the tax-funded health care system to work for me when they refused to vaccinate me because I didn't have an Argentine ID
12:35 < fenn> yep
12:35 < muurkha> also Trump got elected in 02016 so basically the whole system is worthless and needs to be burned down
12:36 < muurkha> too bad I didn't have that epiphany when Bitcoin was at US$1
12:38 < fenn> a censorship resistant money is good for more than just dodging taxes
12:38 < muurkha> it's also good for keeping the Russian government for seizing your bank account?
12:38 < muurkha> yeah, my concern wasn't that it was *only* good for dodging taxes
12:39 < muurkha> my concern was just that Tim May's signature is correct
12:39 < kanzure> hm i see something 2012-07-31 where i was reading the source code to the intersango exchange (how did i get access to that?)
12:39 < fenn> if governments didnt suck so bad, maybe smart competent people would work there, and implement correct solutions like digital signatures instead of a flimsy paper card you are supposed to carry around your entire life
12:40 < fenn> Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
12:40 < fenn> tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
12:40 < fenn> 408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
12:40 < fenn> W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
12:41 < muurkha> making government systems more leakproof does not help those of us who survive by the leaks
12:41 < muurkha> yes, that one
12:41 < muurkha> it's not just a collection of terms; it's a causality graph
12:41 < fenn> you shouldn't have to survive by the leaks
12:41 < muurkha> well no, but I do
12:42 < muurkha> fortunately my girlfriend's father was able to get me vaccinated through his connections at the hospital
12:42 < muurkha> because there are parts of the vaccination system that still work on flimsy paper cards instead of correct digital solutions
12:43 < muurkha> and as a result I am still alive
12:43 < fenn> this is sort of like "don't ask, don't tell" as an official policy
12:43 < muurkha> (I'd probably be still alive actually, my chances of surviving covid without a vaccination are about 99%)
12:43 < muurkha> (would have been)
12:43 < fenn> if everyone ignores the problem they can claim to believe that the problem doesn't exist
12:43 < kanzure> ybit was working on an exchange 2011-08-01..
12:43 < muurkha> May's Crypto-Anarchist Manifesto lays out the causality graph in more detail
12:44 < fenn> i have read "cryptonomicon" "snow crash" and "the diamond age" so i get the gist
12:44 < muurkha> those are more exciting but not closely reasoned
12:45 < muurkha> "collapse of governments" in May's model results from the practical impossibility of taxing transactions on black markets
12:45 < fenn> but why read dry source material when i can read an exciting pseudo-historical fiction
12:45 < fenn> yeah that's in snow crash, as as result of the cryptocurrency stuff that happened in cryptonomicon
12:45 < muurkha> reasoning from fictional evidence leads to random incorrect conclusions
12:45 < fenn> pff
12:46 < fenn> it's not like you can predict the future
12:46 < muurkha> yeah, it's also in the diamond age
12:46 < fenn> the author was just cribbing from cypherpunks mailing list anyway
12:46 < muurkha> yes
12:47 < kanzure> apparently i was the one who told daniel krawisz about bitcoin (2010-03-15)
12:47 < kanzure> also linked him to these:
12:47 < fenn> who's that
12:47 < kanzure> http://newcurrencyfrontiers.com/ 
12:47 < kanzure> http://complementarycurrency.org/ 
12:47 < kanzure> http://twitter.com/metacurrency
12:48 < kanzure> fenn: i think he put together nakamotoinstitute.org early on
12:48 < muurkha> my concern was that even if the end state is better than the current situation, the path to getting there could be pretty rocky
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12:49 < fenn> sure, this still holds true (IMHO) http://lifeboat.com/blog/2013/04/bitcoins-dystopian-future
12:49 < muurkha> it took a hundred years of Europe-wide holy wars resulting in a substantial population decline to get from Gutenberg to the beginnings of liberalism
12:49 < fenn> crossbows are for shooting people
12:49 < fenn> what's bitcoin for?
12:49 < kanzure> oh, i found it
12:50 < kanzure> it was 2009-01-10 and it was an email from eugen leitl
12:50 < muurkha> cool
12:50 < muurkha> I haven't heard from him in a few years, how's he doing?
12:50 < kanzure> i saw him in person a few years ago but haven't chatted lately
12:51 < muurkha> hopefully he invested €1000 in Bitcoin as soon as there were exchanges?
12:51 < fenn> you could buy bitcoins online way before exchanges
12:51 < muurkha> or just mine them
12:51 < muurkha> what's Satoshi's net worth?
12:51 < fenn> like "paypal me and i'll send em"
12:52 < kanzure> there was also nanotube's #bitcoin-otc which is still around (i tested it yesterday)
12:52 < muurkha> nanotube?
12:52 < kanzure> https://bitcoin-otc.com/
12:52 < kanzure> nanotube from lesswrong
12:52 < kanzure> he was an early bitcoiner..
12:52 < fenn> satoshi can't spend the genesis coins because it would instantly crash the value of bitcoin
12:53 < fenn> if he has bitcoins we don't know which ones they are
12:53 < muurkha> oh right
12:54 < muurkha> I don't know, the US reducing sanctions on Venezuela this week might have more of an effect at this point
12:54 < muurkha> most bitcoin investors have never read the white paper at this point
12:55 < fenn> scary
12:58 < fenn> do historians understand "the cause" of the great depression after 1929
13:00 < fenn> i remember reading Steinbeck in english class, they were dumping milk into the river because they couldn't sell it for a high enough price, while starving people looked on, and i never understood how that worked
13:02 < fenn> if there was simply a money shortage, why not make a new IOU based system instead of using "money"
13:03 < muurkha> trade is always bound up with a set of traditions that govern what is and is not permissible
13:03 < muurkha> in the US at the time there was a pretty strong taboo on taking on debt
13:04 < fenn> personal debt or business debt?
13:04 < fenn> i get the impression small businesses run on debt 100% of the time
13:05 < fenn> he who dies with the most debt wins, heh
13:05 < muurkha> personal debt
13:05 < muurkha> also though the US was on the gold standard then
13:05 < muurkha> so there really could be a money shortage
13:06 < fenn> well, trade gold futures then
13:08 < fenn> that's basically an IOU but it's "backed by gold" in some sense
13:08 < muurkha> that's true
13:09 < muurkha> I don't think it was as easy to do then as it is now
13:10 < fenn> now there's all this regulation
13:12 < muurkha> yeah, but also, like, there's networks
13:12 < muurkha> at the time what there was was a stock ticker feed
13:12 < muurkha> and a telephone network which required manual intervention for long distance
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18:46 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=a675183e Bryan Bishop: transcript: austin bitcoin developers socratic seminar 28 >> 
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22:32 < jrayhawk> https://12ft.io/
22:34 < fenn> monkeypox found in 7 countries, 33 confirmed cases, 42 suspected cases
22:36 < fenn> wondering why i haven't seen any genetic analysis on the virus yet
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--- Log closed Fri May 20 00:00:28 2022