--- Log opened Fri May 27 00:00:35 2022
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07:54 < kanzure> "Called the GP-write Startup Team, the project aims to provide a small amount of funding and a lot of advice and support for a new crop of startups aiming to do large-scale genome editing and synthesis. Their RFP announcement invites startups working on new genome-scale design software, DNA synthesis tools, precision genome editing, or chromosomal and organism engineering to apply for ...
07:54 < kanzure> ...investments of up to $500,000. Proposals due July 1. Here’s the announcement."
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09:39 < muurkha> fenn: maybe it's just neurological maturation
09:42 < muurkha> also, IIRC, the other day you asked me if I was a fucking idiot.  in that case you sort of got lucky because I am, in fact, a fucking idiot, but you didn't know that; many other people in my position would have taken offense
09:43 < muurkha> when you're younger people tend to cut you more slack for that kind of thing, but when you're older they often don't.  and often you never find out about it; one example in the present context is how pmetzger has apparently never returned to this channel after being told to shut up
09:44 < muurkha> but it took kanzure 13 years to notice
09:45 < muurkha> the main visible manifestation of that sort of thing in your life is often a silent lack of certain unexpected opportunities that would have appeared to less aggressive, more agreeable people
09:46 < muurkha> same thing happens with, for example, lack of conscientiousness: if you're highly conscientious it results in unexpected opportunities arising from time to time, and if you're not, those opportunities don't arise
09:47 < muurkha> but people don't call you up and tell you, "We're starting up a consulting firm, and the reason we didn't decide to invite you to join is how we saw you flake out on such and such a project two years ago"
09:48 < muurkha> unexpected opportunities are by definition the kind of thing you don't notice the absence of, but their presence plays an important role in improving most people's lives
09:50 < muurkha> I don't know if you personally have a problem with a lack of conscientiousness, but I mention it because ⓐ I do, and ⓑ it's another thing like random aggression which other people become less willing to overlook as you get older
09:51 < muurkha> also ⓒ people who are highly conscientious spend less time on IRC
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10:10 < fenn> i don't take offense easily but being told to use HTML 5 for my personal stuff is one that sets me off
10:10 < fenn> sorry i snapped at you
10:11 < muurkha> don't worry, I didn't take offense; as I said, I am in fact a fucking idiot
10:12 < fenn> i am very conscientious
10:12 < muurkha> I'm just inferring that perhaps from time to time you've snapped at other people who did take offense, and that this might have some explanatory power about "the slow downhill progress of my life"
10:12 < muurkha> well, lack of conscientiousness is not a candidate explanation then
10:14 < fenn> i used to be less so, pre-2005
10:14 < muurkha> what happened in 2005?
10:14 < fenn> then i discovered fishtubs
10:14 < muurkha> .g fishtubs
10:14 < saxo> https://www.amazon.com/Fish-Tubs-Food-Storage-Combos/dp/B07FWCHWRN
10:14 < muurkha> .t
10:15 < saxo> Amazon.com: Fish Tubs/Food Storage Bins 25lb 11.5' x 15.5' x 5', Pack of 10 Deep Bases with Lids…: Home & Kitchen
10:15 < fenn> i realized that systems weren't just for "the man" but can improve the life of individuals
10:15 < fenn> along with systems and organization goes a compulsion to do things correctly. maybe it's learned behavior
10:15 < fenn> .wik ocpd
10:15 < saxo> "Obsessive–compulsive personality disorder (OCPD) is a cluster C personality disorder marked by an excessive need for orderliness, and neatness." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocpd
10:16 < fenn> they say it like it's a bad thing
10:16 < fenn> really it's just that everybody else is doing everything wrong and messing it all up
10:16 < muurkha> haha
10:19 < fenn> my main conscientiousness flaw is that if i use a todo list to ensure that i get task X done (not "flaking out" on it) then my todo list grows rapidly into an impossibly large set of tasks
10:20 < fenn> since i don't really have a todo list, every promised task occupies a "stress slot" in my subconscious awareness
10:22 < fenn> i think i have just been getting dumber, there's less low hanging fruit in the space of awesome things to discover, depression, anxiety, low energy, lack of initiative
10:23 < kanzure> have you tried neglecting tasks on your todo list that you don't actually care about?
10:23 < fenn> that's what happens by default
10:23 < nmz787> wait, I don't see any history on HTML5 snappage, but IMO HTML5 is a great upgrade to standard HTML... I thought you hated JavaScript, and doesn't HTML5 alleviate a good bit of the need for JavaScript to do sane things?
10:24 < fenn> well "HTML5" isn't really a standard, so it's this amorphous changing blob that could mean anything apple and google want it to mean
10:24 < nmz787> like, you don't need stupid Flash to play a video
10:24 < nmz787> I thought HTML5 was standardized like 10-15 years ago...
10:25 < fenn> weren't you the one complaining a few days ago about web based guis?
10:25 < fenn> if i'm trying to make an immersive 3D video game world, HTML is not a good tool for doing that
10:25 < nmz787> well, yes, but HTML5 is still better IMO than HTML<5
10:26 < nmz787> oh, I thought your personal stuff was like, text and images and maybe videos
10:26 < nmz787> I think webGL would be the thing for 3D webpage
10:26 < fenn> think skyrim or minecraft
10:27 < nmz787> don't know the first ref, the second seems low-graphics threshold to do in webpage
10:27 < fenn> ugh
10:27 < nmz787> I don't really know openGL tho to say what trouble webGL vs C++ GL mena
10:27 < fenn> why hobble yourself in the first place
10:27 < nmz787> means*
10:27 < nmz787> .g hobble
10:27 < saxo> https://morrison.sunygeneseoenglish.org/2017/10/31/what-is-hobbling/
10:27 < nmz787> ugh
10:27 < fenn> artificially limit
10:27 < nmz787> is there a .def for this bot ?
10:27 < fenn> .w hobble
10:27 < saxo> hobble — noun: 1. (chiefly in the plural) One of the short straps tied between the legs of unfenced horses, allowing them to wander short distances but preventing them from running off, 2. An unsteady, off-balance step — verb: 1. To fetter by tying the legs; to restrict (a horse) with hobbles, [...]
10:28 < nmz787> LOL
10:28 < kanzure> it was made by the swhackians, of course it has a .def
10:28 < nmz787> yes, I'm sure that's what you meant
10:28 < nmz787> .def hobble
10:28 < kanzure> .ety hobble
10:28 < saxo> "hobble (v.)c. 1300, hoblen 'to rock back and forth, toss up and down,' probably from or cognate with dialectal German hoppeln, Dutch hobbelen 'toss, ride on a hobby-horse; stutter, stammer' (which, however, is not recorded before late 15c.). Or perhaps a variant frequentative of hop (v.). Meaning 'to walk lamely' is f..." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/hobble
10:28 < fenn> it was also a practice of cutting the hamstring tendon of prisoners of war, so they could never return to battle
10:29 < nmz787> ouch
10:29 < nmz787> well, presumably the benefit of webGL is that users don't need to install anything... at what cost to develop IDK
10:30 < fenn> i don't want filthy causals
10:30 < fenn> the goal is to get people to contribute data and art back to the game, as a way to get SKDB engineering specs
10:30 < nmz787> as in your graphics will be lower quality?
10:30 < fenn> no?
10:31 < nmz787> "filthy causals" sounds maybe graphical
10:31 < fenn> lower than what? i'm not capable of making an AAA game myself
10:31 < fenn> better than minecraft anyway
10:31 < fenn> probably will end up using a lot of 3D photo scans
10:32 < fenn> at the very least it would provide a consistent style or look for user contributed objects
10:33 < fenn> if someone can't be bothered to install some software, they probable aren't going to be contributing back
10:34 < nmz787> idk, I think web2.0 proves that idea wrong
10:34 < nmz787> wikipoedia doesn't require you to install anything to contribute back
10:34 < fenn> hm
10:34 < nmz787> (assuming your OS already has a browser installed, which most computers have had for at least 10-20 years)
10:35 < fenn> there will be web interfaces for editing machine data
10:35 < fenn> i'm just doubtful about this whole webGL thing
10:35 < muurkha> I think Minecraft is totally feasible for HTML5, probably even without wasm
10:35 < muurkha> I don't know what skyrim is like either
10:35 < nmz787> I wasn't really saying HTML5 was good for games though, just that it was IMO a very good version of HTML compared to what came before it
10:35 < nmz787> I remember having a VRML CDROM when I was a kid
10:36 < fenn> sure, yes, HTML5 fixes a lot of annoyances
10:37 < muurkha> the other advantage of HTML5 is WORA
10:37 < muurkha> you don't have to port your app to GNU/Linux, Windows, MacOS, iOS, and Android
10:37 < nmz787> aka cross-platform
10:37 < muurkha> yeah
10:38 < nmz787> " This gave rise to a joke among Java developers: Write Once, Debug Everywhere"
10:38 < nmz787> .wik write once run anywhere
10:38 < saxo> "Write once, run anywhere (WORA), or sometimes Write once, run everywhere (WORE), was a 1995  slogan created by Sun Microsystems to illustrate the cross-platform benefits of the Java language." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Write_once_run_anywhere
10:38 < muurkha> yeah, now that we have nearly a monoculture of KHTML, WODE is no longer a problem
10:39 < muurkha> I've actually been playing a twitch HTML5 game a lot recently (see above remarks about low conscientiousness) and I do run into a platform limitation
10:39 < nmz787> you mena this?
10:39 < nmz787> .wik KHTML
10:39 < saxo> "KHTML is a browser engine developed by the KDE project. It is the default engine of the Konqueror browser, but it has not been actively worked on since 2016." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHTML
10:39 < muurkha> yes
10:39 < muurkha> it's not correct that it has not been actively worked on since 02016 though
10:39 < nmz787> not worked on since 2016 doesn't sound like a monoculture
10:39 < muurkha> it's just called WebKit and Blink now
10:39 < nmz787> I think the prevalent web engine is chromium based, no?
10:40 < muurkha> yes, which is KHTML
10:40  * fenn groans
10:40 < fenn> it's all just GUI widgets, text, and images FFS
10:40 < muurkha> that'd be nice
10:40 < fenn> why does everything have to be so complicated
10:41 < nmz787> easy shit was all done in caveman era
10:41 < fenn> it's not like the HTML itself is doing voice recognition or video compression
10:41 < nmz787> 2 sticks, 1 flame
10:41 < muurkha> to be fair I'm making the platform limitations a lot worse on myself than I really have to be: http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/qvaders
10:41 < muurkha> because I'm running the game logic in lockstep with the display loop
10:41 < muurkha> so whenever the browser misses a frame the game slows down
10:42 < muurkha> but all the browsers I've tried on several different machines miss frames a *lot*
10:42 < muurkha> which is kind of a big problem for games
10:42 < muurkha> well.  not, like, chess and nethack and sudoku
10:43 < muurkha> but for twitch games and immersive VR it is
10:45 < fenn> i was playing around on gopher recently and it was such a relief
10:45 < fenn> like a huge burden had been lifted
10:45 < nmz787> isn't that older than lynx?
10:45 < fenn> yes
10:45 < fenn> it's not http
10:45 < nmz787> I know I knew it was a protocol, can't say I ever used it
10:46 < fenn> you have to run a gopher server and format stuff as plain text
10:46 < fenn> but as a result, everything happens instantly, and there's nothing to go wrong
10:46 < nmz787> is there anything on the internet server with gopher?
10:46 < fenn> it has directory structures and links
10:46 < nmz787> or would this be all intranet stuff?
10:48 < fenn> https://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw?gopher.floodgap.com/1/world
10:48 < muurkha> gopher predated intranets by a long time
10:49 < muurkha> it came out at basically the same time as the WWW
10:49 < muurkha> most of the same ideas, just realized in a slightly different form
10:49 < nmz787> didn't intranet pre-date internet?
10:49 < muurkha> no, "intranet" was a silly neologism from, as I recall, around 01998
10:49 < nmz787> like, just due to cable lengths
10:49 < muurkha> you're talking about LANs
10:50 < fenn> there were other internetworking protocols like ARPANET, BITNET
10:50 < muurkha> ARPANET was not another internetworking protocol :)
10:50 < fenn> novell netware
10:51 < muurkha> ARPANET was a particular packet-switched network, the one that grew into the internet
10:51 < fenn> compuserv, telex, minitel
10:51 < muurkha> all of those postdate ARPANET by decades though
10:51 < muurkha> ARPANET achieved its first remote login in 01969
10:52 < muurkha> except telex!
10:52 < fenn> well we wouldnt say the internet existed in 1969 would we?
10:52 < muurkha> no, it didn't become an internet for about five years
10:53 < muurkha> in 01969 local-area "networking" consisted of dumb terminals connected over serial lines to a mainframe
10:54 < muurkha> but "intranet" was what people who confused the internet with the WWW decided to call their internal-access WWW setups
10:54 < muurkha> an earlier term for that kind of thing was "CWIS": "campus-wide information system".  both gopher and lynx were written as part of a CWIS
10:54 < muurkha> lynx at the University of Kansas, Gopher at U Minn
10:55 < muurkha> btw links2 is pretty good at rendering WWW pages instantly, like gopher.  you might try it
10:56 < fenn> the UI for w3m is more understandable to me
10:56 < muurkha> w3m is also pretty snappy
10:56 < muurkha> but I feel like it's not quite as responsive
10:57 < fenn> it's not like i need a terminal based browser. dillo works fine for me, at least as long as the webpage isn't a giant pile of shit
10:57 < fenn> w3m and lynx would have trouble on most of those pages too
10:57 < fenn> elinks2*
10:57 < muurkha> lynx is very unresponsive
10:57 < fenn> sorry old habit
10:57 < muurkha> dillo is pretty good but it's a lot slower than elinks
10:58  * fenn derps
10:58 < muurkha> IME
10:58 < fenn> a lot of slowness is back-and-forth to webservers
10:59 < muurkha> can be, but links2 is good about remaining responsive while that's happening
10:59 < fenn> load a thing, run a script, the script loads another script which loads another script ... eventually you get the page content
10:59 < muurkha> oh, and of course it doesn't run scripts
10:59 < fenn> probably why it's snappy
11:00 < muurkha> that's part of it but not most of it
11:01 < muurkha> this is probably the best thing to read on the gopher vs. WWW history: https://www.ics.uci.edu/~rohit/IEEE-L7-http-gopher.html
11:06 < fenn> i'd love to chat but my life is a mess and i have a lot to do right now
11:06 < muurkha> good luck
11:12  * nsh also wishes fortune for fenn
11:17 < nsh> what's the concept behind the Host Requirements gags in that text muurkha?
11:17 < nsh> i vaguely remember something
11:17 < muurkha> hmm?
11:18 < nsh> "Science proves a blind alley, though. Their fates were decided not on technical merits, but on economic and psychological advantages. The 'Postellian' school of protocol design focused on engineering 'right' solutions for core applications (batch file transfer, interactive terminals, mail and news relays) anchored in unique transport layer adaptations (slow-start, Nagle timers, and routing as respective examples). Our two specimens are 'post-Postel', in their 
11:18 < nsh> details and in their adoption dynamics. They are stateless; they don't have (Gopher) or dilute (HTTP) the theory of reply codes; they scale poorly, imperiling the health of the Internet; and they are 'luxuries' for publishing discretionary information, not Host Requirements which must be compiled into every node. "
11:18 < nsh> the implication is that some prior round of protocols enabled a requirement featureset for hosts to enjoin or something
11:19 < muurkha> he's talking about https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/inline-errata/rfc1122.html
11:19 < nmz787> I can't tell if web3 is a scam or not
11:20 < muurkha> most of it is
11:20 < nmz787> implied or accidental
11:20 < nsh> muurkha, ty!
11:20 < muurkha> well really he's talking about https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/inline-errata/rfc1123.html
11:20 < nmz787> honestly I have no idea why I would want all my transactions logged into a blockchain
11:20 < nmz787> it seems like such a waste of resources
11:21 < muurkha> nmz787: have you looked at MimbleWimble?
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11:21 < nmz787> heard of it, but no
11:21 < nmz787> something to replace RSS feeds or something?
11:27 < muurkha> haha, no
11:28 < muurkha> something to replace logging all your transactions into a blockchain
11:29 < muurkha> nsh: for context, when I joined the internet in 01992, I was sharing a VAX with a couple hundred other people
11:30 < nmz787> muurkha: my browser history is enough logging for me
11:30 < kanzure> muurkha: was that question meant for me?
11:30 < muurkha> nmz787: you'll love MimbleWimble then
11:30 < muurkha> kanzure: which question?
11:30 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2016-11-21-mimblewimble/
11:31 < muurkha> and that was the normal way the internet worked: each computer ("host") hosted a number of users, although workstations had been around for ten years, only a minority of internet users had their own workstation
11:31 < muurkha> so it was normal for each host to have an SMTP server, an FTP server, a TELNET server, and maybe finger and/or talk servers
11:32 < muurkha> so the assumption was that requirements about how to implement SMTP or FTP were relevant to all hosts, with a few exceptions
11:32 < kanzure> there are some recent problems with mimblewimble that turn out to violate a bunch of assumptions but i don't remember which assumptions or how broken it is
11:33 < muurkha> nsh: does that clarify the context a bit?
11:33 < kanzure> https://medium.com/dragonfly-research/breaking-mimblewimble-privacy-model-84bcd67bfe52
11:33 < nmz787> muurkha: so you were running on the cloud. got it
11:33 < kanzure> maybe it was that...
11:33 < nmz787> same as today
11:34 < muurkha> nmz787: well, instead of running on other people's computers, you were running on one computer that was other people's
11:34 < muurkha> your university's or your employer's
11:34 < nmz787> l337 h@xors were running on other people's computers :D
11:35 < muurkha> a fellow in Indiana gave me an account on his NetBSD box
11:35 < muurkha> I used it to subscribe to subversive ancap mailing lists
11:35 < muurkha> it was a lot nicer than VMS
11:40 < muurkha> the cloud slogan other than ('the cloud is just other people's computers') is 'treat servers as cattle, not pets'.  hosts at the time were more than pets: they were more like racehorses.  each one often had an entire staff dedicated to just that one computer
11:43 < nmz787> integration has come a long way
11:44 < nmz787> it is amazing that a new computer costs less than a day's wages at minimum wage
11:54 < muurkha> a new computer costs 3¢, which is 20 minutes' wages at minimum wage
11:55 < muurkha> it's faster than the VAX but doesn't have enough RAM to run TCP/IP
11:55 < muurkha> one that can run TCP/IP probably costs 50¢ if you insist on running lwIP instead of uIP
11:56 < muurkha> still less than a day's wages tho
12:25 < nsh> muurkha, it does (sorry, i've been making and eating lovely sandwiches)
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12:39 < muurkha> I was just reading about the Nintendo 3DS
12:42 < muurkha> oops, wrong channel
12:51 < nmz787> muurkha: not sure what unit that is, INR? but I am unsure what sort of computer you mean, I should have specified complete computer system I guess, in the sense of a display and input/output peripherals/devices
12:59 < muurkha> US$!
12:59 < muurkha> the VAX on which I first had internet access didn't have a display
13:00 < muurkha> but yeah a display can run you US$10 if you're in the US: https://www.adafruit.com/product/338
13:03 < muurkha> this one is color, higher resolution, and in stock: https://www.adafruit.com/product/618
13:03 < muurkha> .t
13:03 < saxo> 1.8 SPI TFT display, 160x128 18-bit color - ST7735R driver : ID 618 : $9.95 : Adafruit Industries, Unique & fun DIY electronics and kits
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13:34 < lkcl> muurkha, dc32's reprap 3d printer board runs a web server but it's partly cheating by using an SPI-based WIFI module that handles the TCP/IP stack
13:37 < muurkha> lkcl: yeah, people do that pretty often and it's probably a reasonable choice.  but there's also lwIP
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16:43 < L29Ah> fenn: so how did you notice you had a painful tooth?
16:46 < fenn> because it hurt? i don't understand the question
16:46 < fenn> .wik paxlovid
16:46 < saxo> "Nirmatrelvir/ritonavir, sold under the brand name Paxlovid, is a co-packaged oral medication used as a treatment for COVID-19. It contains the antiviral medications nirmatrelvir and ritonavir. /  In December 2021, nirmatrelvir/ritonavir was granted emergency use [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paxlovid
16:47 < fenn> apparenty it really works
16:50 < L29Ah> fenn: but you told it didn't hurt
16:50 < fenn> eventually yes
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20:02 < nmz787> muurkha I mean a "real" computer, i.e. one a common person could make utility with
20:21 < lsneff> Yeah, that’s probably more like a week of minimum wage
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--- Log closed Sat May 28 00:00:36 2022