--- Log opened Sun May 29 00:00:37 2022
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07:35 < oxphi> why do cryonicists use the term "information death" as if it is a distinguishable event, whereas the reality is there is no loss of information but just increasingly more entropy
07:36 < oxphi> couldn't one argue that nothing physically prevents all information from being retrievable from the past, therefore we are essentialy immortal by nature
07:43 < L29Ah> because they need some layman terms, but fancier than "soul" to avoid confusion with certain other kind of immortalists
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07:46 < oxphi> even ralph merkle uses the term, i doubt he uses it simply to appease to laymen
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08:03 < fenn> oxphi: if the information needed to reconstruct us is radiating away into space at the speed of light, it's not accessible to our descendants
08:04 < fenn> oxphi: the idea is to distinguish between "we scan your bran and upload you" vs "we inject magical drugs and you wake up in the same brain/body"
08:04 < fenn> in information death the former is not possible
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08:46 < lsneff> Information is not recoverable from a pile of ash, for instance
08:47 < lsneff> Info death is decent terminology
09:53 < oxphi> well wht is the definition of info death then, I can't seem to find it anywhere
09:54 < oxphi> nvm found on merkle's page: https://www.merkle.com/definitions/infodeath.html
09:56 < oxphi> so yes he admits "information theoretic death" could indeed change given advanced enough technology
10:00 < oxphi> and unfortunately it is seen as a strict definition when I don't believe info death has a strict definition, it's a judgment on the limits of technology (as merkle states)
10:01 < oxphi> so while the cremation of someone can be seen as "complete death" there is no physical law that states reconstruction is impossible
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11:43 < lsneff> It’s certainly a line that will shift over time
11:43 < lsneff> But it will have limits
11:52 < oxphi> there are interesting "papers" in the cryonics magazine which discusses retreival of "lost" information, kind of "quantum archeology"
12:35 < juri_> good use of quotes.
12:35 < juri_> I too liked clarke's light of other days, but that's not technology yet.
13:23 -!- Darius_ is now known as abecedarius
13:55 < maaku> oxphi: uh, the laws of thermodynamics are considered physical laws
13:56 < maaku> from a philosophy of physics point of view there's reasons to be annoyed that the 2nd law is probabalistic instead of firm like other physical laws
13:56 < maaku> but pragmatically the laws of probability are just as iron tight
14:02 < oxphi> maaku: I still don't see a clear point at which one can say there is "info theoretic death" without a subjective judgement on limits of technology, I could be severely misunderstanding something so if you could elaborate maybe I'll understand
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15:28 < TMA> I have read a paper about limits of computation speed. (Sorry, I do not have the reference.) There is a limit for information storage (basically a single bit of information needs to have some representation, for example spin of a single electron.)
15:29 < TMA> Then there is a limit to the speed of interaction, which is proportional to the temperature.
15:31 < TMA> But the most interesting part of the paper was the discussion of reversible computation. It was asserted, that as long as the computation is reversible, there is no need for it to consume energy.
15:33 < TMA> and the second important assertion was that raising entropy is equivalent to forgetting information not only in the information theoretic sense but in the physical sense as well. If the computation is reversible, nothing is forgotten.
15:33 < TMA> If nothing is forgotten the entropy does not increase and no energy is consumed.
15:38 < TMA> The most efficient computronium according to the paper is really hot and dense, think of a star core.
15:42 < oxphi> id be interested to read the paper if you can remember where or what is was titled
15:44 < fenn> only bit erasure requires energy expenditure
15:45 < fenn> i would have expected efficient computation to be very low energy gradients in a cold environment such as at the horizon of a black hole
15:46 < fenn> a clean black hole
15:48 < muurkha> nmz787: I don't think a common person could make utility with the VAX that was my host when I joined the internet, in part because it didn't have a display
15:48 < muurkha> maaku: what do you mean about the privacy model?
15:49 < muurkha> lkcl: SDCC also supports the PMS150C now
16:05  * fenn reads https://hackaday.com/2019/04/26/making-a-three-cent-microcontroller-useful/
16:07 < muurkha> TMA: as far as we know it is correct that reversible computation does not consume energy
16:08 < L29Ah> 01:05:47]* fenn reads https://hackaday.com/2019/04/26/making-a-three-cent-microcontroller-useful/
16:08 < L29Ah> i see the semiconductor crisis did hit you too hard
16:08 < muurkha> TMA: there's an "ultimate laptop" paper from a few years back that explores the theoretical limits of computation speed, but it comes to somewhat different conclusions than the ones you're talking about
16:11 < muurkha> L29Ah: maybe I shouldn't have brought them up but it seemed relevant to the discussion of how cheap computers are nowadays that these computers in particular cost less than most individual discrete transistors
16:11 < fenn> hmm. "Adafruit sues other companies calling WS2812B “Neopixel”."
16:11 < fenn> that's kinda lame
16:12 < fenn> L29Ah: it can be fun to make disposable electronics toys
16:12 < L29Ah> :gretaface:
16:13 < fenn> yeah i use real leaded solder too
16:13 < fenn> also i'm an environmentalist
16:21 < muurkha> fenn: the source for that assertion seems to be just some random commenter in the comments of that post, who failed to provide sources when asked
16:21 < muurkha> so it's likely not true
16:22 < L29Ah> https://www.lessdeath.org/ united usanians
16:22 < fenn> it's just as true as your assertion that "numerical recipes" authors will sue
16:23 < muurkha> that's true, I was equally unable to find any actual lawsuits in that case
16:23 < muurkha> well, it may be more or less true, but it's just as believable
16:23 < muurkha> just as well substantiated
16:24 < fenn> epistemically speaking
16:24 < muurkha> epistemically speaking, truth and plausibility are not the same thing
16:25 < muurkha> but I've already exhausted my quota for arguing about the nature of truth for this month
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18:08 < maaku> oxphi: if someone is cremated, their ordered structure is turned into disordered gasses and ash
18:08 < maaku> technically from a purely Newtonian perspective if you knew the *exact* position and trajectory of every resulting particle, you could rewind time and reconstruct the original body
18:10 < maaku> however (1) in the 19th century the development of statistical mechanics showed that if you assume any uncertainty in measurement then there are thresholds beyond which the original state is unrecoverable
18:10 < maaku> to be able to do so perfectly would be equivalent to building a perpetual motion machine (google "Maxwell's demon" if you want to go down that rabbit hole)
18:11 < maaku> still I guess you could cling to the hope that technology always reduces error thresholds and we can someday arbitrarily approach zero error and therefore eventually recover anything
18:12 < maaku> ...if it weren't for Heisenberg who showed that nope, it is physically impossible to measure position and velocity exactly at the quantum scale
18:13 < maaku> so (2) quantum mechanics puts a floor on how good technology can get in the future
18:15 < maaku> Cremation is so thoroughly entropic that there is no possible future technology that can reverse it. If such technology existed, it could also be used for perpetual motion and infinite energy.
18:17 < maaku> "information theoretic death" is referencing the information-theory interpretation of statistical mechanics, where it can be said that the "information" of a system is a measure of how ordered the system is verses a purely entropic state, like you get from burning something
18:17 < maaku> in other words information = negentropy
18:18 < maaku> How much information does it take to encode a human being? We don't knkow, but it is certainly nonzero.
18:18 < maaku> The information contained in a cremated body is zero (in this specific interpretation of statistical mechanics through the lens of information theory)
18:19 < maaku> Therefore, we can be certain that cremation crosses into the realm of information theoretic death, even if we don't know exactly where that line is.
18:19 < maaku> Cryonicists believe that a frozen/vitrified body is on the good side of that threshold, on the other hand, or at least are willing to bet time and money on it.
18:22 < maaku> muurkha: nmz787 said he doesn't want his transactions logged, and you said he'd love mimblewimble then
18:23 < maaku> mimblewimble doesn't actually achieve its stated goal of eliminating transaction logs
18:27 < L29Ah> lightning network eliminates transaction logs
18:27 < maaku> L29Ah: it does not, as people are observing and logging the lightning network itself
18:32 < L29Ah> ok, non-routed lightning network, eh
18:33 < L29Ah> or via nodes you trust
18:33 < maaku> yeah. people get suckered into thinking that just because it happened off-chain it is therefore private
18:33 < maaku> that was mimblewimble's mistake--"you can join two transactions and now you don't know who's is who's!"
18:34 < maaku> except that people are broadcasting the original, unjoined transactions and mallory is just keeping those messages instead?
18:34 < maaku> (or in the original, un-fixed mimblewimble it was trivial to cryptographically separate the original transactions even from the merged tx)
18:35 < maaku> in the case of lightning, maintaining an efficient network requires keeping other nodes informed of balance updates so routing capacity is known
18:36 < maaku> you may not see the tx if you're not on the routing hop.. but you see alice move 1btc towards bob, bob move 1 btc towards charlie, charlie move 1btc towards dave...
18:36 < maaku> it doesn't take much to put 2 + 2 together to get 4
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19:17 < abecedarius> otoh 0 + 0 = 0
19:18 < L29Ah> abecedarius: what
19:19 < abecedarius> something to be said for zero knowledge proofs
19:21  * L29Ah waits for trustless zksnarks
19:22 < abecedarius> don't hold your breath, launch is a day or two away
19:27 < L29Ah> what where?
19:28 < abecedarius> https://z.cash/upgrade/nu5/
19:31 < L29Ah> but zcash is forever tainted
19:31  * abecedarius sighs. whatever.
19:32 < L29Ah> thanks for the link on the improved protocol tho
19:32 < L29Ah> even though it feels like they've picked the name specifically to clash with a popular video game
19:33 < abecedarius> out of mild curiosity, what is the taint you believe in?
19:34 < L29Ah> i recall trusted setup in zcash results in the ability to create money for the keepers of the secret data
19:35 < L29Ah> so if some additional money is already created, switching the proof algorithm for new transactions now won't do anything with the fact
19:41 < jrayhawk> they deleted the trusted setup audit logs needed to track inflation, accused trusted setup member who dared publicly point this out of rape (which was later revealed in court to be "we were sent an anonymous accusation of rape"), during which an inflation bug went unrevealed and unfixed for a year.
19:43 < abecedarius> supposing for the moment that the ceremony failed and money creation occurred, the impart is limited to the shielded pool before migration to the newer protocols. https://zcash.readthedocs.io/en/latest/rtd_pages/sapling_turnstile.html
19:43 < abecedarius> sorry for the delay, my keyboard is freezing up
19:44 < jrayhawk> zcash went from legitimate project to probable scam. which is interestingly the exact opposite of monero, which bizarrely went from scam to legitimate project
19:50 < abecedarius> if anyone wants to hear their side, https://electriccoin.co/blog/zcash-counterfeiting-vulnerability-successfully-remediated/
19:57 < jrayhawk> "We have found no evidence that the vulnerability was discovered by anyone else or that counterfeiting occurred." lol
19:59 < abecedarius> it contradicts your insinuation they deleted logs to hide inflation.
19:59 < jrayhawk> howso
19:59 < abecedarius> search for 'delete'
20:04 < jrayhawk> "The specified bucket does not exist"
20:12 < abecedarius> as far as this rape thing goes, i don't know anything about that, but would read source links that are not just straight calumny
20:32 < jrayhawk> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor/blob/master/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor.md#todd-v-lovecruft
21:42 < fenn> holy dirty laundry batman!
22:12 < jrayhawk> peter's also in a lawsuit with craig wright, another purveyor of cryptocurrency projects that publicly attack those who have the audacity to try to prevent theft https://www.bitcoinsv.io/article/bitcoin-sv-blocking-potential-p2sh-replay-attack-after-genesis-hard-fork
22:12 < jrayhawk> popular guy
22:40 < maaku> abecedarius: all the zcash stuff is opaque and inscrutable
22:41 < maaku> there may be some good stuff there,  but it is really hard to tell
22:43 < maaku> jrayhawk: jacob got done dirty for sure, but unless you know something I don't it's got the fingerprints of certain major intelligence services, not the zcash team
22:48 < jrayhawk> what? wilcox is very heavily involved
22:52 < jrayhawk> jacob is not even relevant here
22:53 < maaku> jrayhawk: oh when i clicked that link it brought me to the top of the page. now I see you were linking to the Todd case
22:54 < jrayhawk> ah
22:54 < jrayhawk> i guess i should convert that to a text anchor
22:56 < jrayhawk> https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor/blob/master/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor.md#:~:text=April%203rd
22:59 < jrayhawk> or i guess https://github.com/Enegnei/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor/blob/master/JacobAppelbaumLeavesTor.md#user-content-todd-v-lovecruft is what it should be for full compatibility
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