--- Log opened Tue May 31 00:00:38 2022
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01:22 < lkcl> there's a story i heard 30 years ago about a guy who was irritated that a mountain was in his way, when he knew that there was a beautiful forest which he loved, behind it
01:22 < lkcl> so he went to a guru and asked, "can i learn meditation so i can move this mountain with my mind?" and the guru replied, "sure".
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01:23 < lkcl> 20 years later the guy was able to move the mountain with his mind. but the thing was: he also now appreciated the beauty of the mountain and so didn't feel the need to move it
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01:25 < lkcl> leaving the guru-meditation-zen-ness aside, the point is that "just because you can" isn't necessarily a good justification to do something, although i do appreciate the idea of making suns triangular "just because you can" :)
01:26 < lkcl> would the laws of physics support such a construct without requiring a high-point-balance or vast amounts of energy? that's the real question in my mind
01:42 < lkcl> if you're pouring vast amounts of energy into something on a planetary scale just to maintain a high-point balance, i'd look at that and think the people who made it are making a statement, "i've got a bigger tonker" :)
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04:54 < kanzure> sort of disappointing that requeim boils down to blade runner's "what is real", what a lame excuse to not try things that might be better
05:01 < docl> perhaps the guru story can be read as a cautionary tale, learn science / dynamite instead because meditation will mess with your mind such that you don't get anything done
05:36 < kanzure> arguably any human action to move a mountain is ultimately using a mind to move a mountain
05:36 < kanzure> this guru just didn't know how to do it.
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05:52 < kanzure> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tabs-outliner/eggkanocgddhmamlbiijnphhppkpkmkl?hl=en
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12:51 < fenn> in an alternate timeline, the guy moved the mountain. then the weather patterns changed, it no longer rained in the forest, and everything died. the end
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12:57 < fenn> lol pay an additional $14.95 for keyboard shortcuts
12:57 < fenn> welcome to the future
12:58 < kanzure> https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/security/cancellable-crypto-takes-and-FWRZGCie8Dx/
13:00 < fenn> i wanna know how they did the transcript
13:01 < kanzure> https://www.descript.com/
13:01 < kanzure> https://www.descript.com/transcription
13:05 < fenn> thanks
13:06 < kanzure> "nacl's crypto_box in hardware" https://www.cryptoexperts.com/ches2015/slides/day1/session2/talk2.pdf
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14:47 < fenn> i found a book by neal stephenson yesterday, "the big U" and in the liner notes it says "author of 4 books, cryptonomicon diamond-age snow-crash zodiac" and i got to wondering when he wrote them
14:48 < fenn> 1999, 1995, 1992, and 1988 respectively
14:48 < fenn> ok nevermind this must have been a reprint, but it said (c) 1984
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15:26 < kanzure> is there any actual positive science fiction not just "woe is me i don't think it would be productive to make a universal wish granter"
15:27 < nsh> greg egan
15:27 < nsh> all pretty optimistic
15:27 < fenn> the culture books (iain banks), most star trek
15:27 < nsh> can't think of a greg egan that ends on a note of remorse
15:29 < fenn> most stuff in the 1950s and early 1960s
15:29 < fenn> before 1950 scifi was either legendarily ahead of its time or absolute trash
15:30 < L29Ah> kanzure: http://www.skyhunter.com/marcs/GentleSeduction.html
15:30 < fenn> the problem is, once you have a universal wish granter, how do you make an interesting story? often it's by showing the unintended consequences of magic
15:31 < fenn> nobody wants to read "and then they lived happily ever after. and then they kept living happily ever after. and still happy after 50,000 years. and then they circumvented the heat death and kept living happily." for hundreds of pages
15:33 < L29Ah> kanzure:  Noise Level by Raymond F. Jones
15:49 < nsh> .t https://vvforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4778
15:49 < saxo> NOISE LEVEL, An awesome Short Story by Raymond F. Jones - The Vinnie Vincent Forum - Where Freedom Rocks!
15:49 < nsh> (reader view recommended)
16:18 < maaku> fenn: a universal wish granter is more likely to resemble Sphere imho
16:18 < maaku> never underestimate human potential to take something good and make life miserable with it
16:37 < fenn> well Sphere was forgettable apparently
16:38 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_(novel)
16:39 < fenn> "the sphere is an object which allows a person's subconscious thoughts to manifest in reality"
16:39 < fenn> not really a wish granter
16:41 < fenn> "a watered-down take on the sci-fi classic Solaris by Stanislaw Lem, which was made into an immeasurably better film by Andrei Tarkovsky"
16:42 < fenn> "Solaris chronicles the ultimate futility of attempted communications with the extraterrestrial life inhabiting a distant alien"
16:42 < fenn> planet*
16:56 < nsh> i can confirm on the basis of routinely manifesting reality from my [sub]conscious that it's invariably unsatisfactory
16:56 < maaku> I still need to see the original Solaris
16:56 < nsh> .w dukkha
16:56 < saxo> dukkha — noun: 1. (Buddhism) The three main types of pain, suffering, or stress: physical and mental, impermanence, and conditioned states. One of the three marks of existence
16:56 < nsh> (unsatisfactoriness)
16:57 < maaku> fenn: the point is that no technology is going to make life magically utopian
16:57 < nsh> --
16:57 < nsh>     The ancient Aryans who brought the Sanskrit language to India were a nomadic, horse- and cattle-breeding people who travelled in horse- or ox-drawn vehicles. Su and dus are prefixes indicating good or bad. The word kha, in later Sanskrit meaning "sky," "ether," or "space," was originally the word for "hole," particularly an axle hole of one of the Aryan's vehicles. Thus sukha … meant, originally, "having a good axle hole," while duhkha meant "having 
16:57 < nsh> a poor axle hole," leading to discomfort.[12]
16:57 < nsh> -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du%E1%B8%A5kha
16:57 < maaku> some psychopath will just use the universal wish granter to subjegate everything wihtin reach
16:58 < nsh> the others can just wish grant themselves solipsism to preempt that
16:58 < maaku> nsh: step 1. is restrict access to the device, obviously
16:59  * nsh nods
16:59 < nsh> entrust it to a god
16:59 < nsh> preferably one in the pre or post jealous meanie phase
16:59 < nsh> --
16:59 < nsh> The concept of solipsism is also examined prominently, with many less-wealthy Copies attending social functions called Slow Clubs, where socialising Copies agree to synchronise with the slowest person present. Many of these less-wealthy Copies become completely deracinated from their former lives and from world events, or else become Witnesses, who spend their time observing (at considerable time lapse) world events unfold, at the cost of any meaningful 
16:59 < nsh> relationships with their fellow Copies. A subculture of lower/middle-class Copies, calling themselves Solipsist Nation after a philosophical work by their nominal founder, choose to completely repudiate the "real" world and any Copies still attached to it, reprogramming their models-of-brains and their VR environments in order to design themselves into their own personal vision of paradise, of whatever size and detail, disregarding slowdown in the process. 
16:59 < nsh> -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation_City
16:59 < kanzure> vague gestures to the channel's general prohibition on the creation of new religions
16:59 < nsh> enforced by the FDA
17:00 < L29Ah> it's not creation, it's discovery
17:00 < nsh> and the ethics board of the harvard review of genetics
17:01 < maaku> god is dead. let's keep it that way
17:02 < kanzure> why is it that anti-utopia is allowed to point to the ultimate utopian state but anti-dystopia doesn't get to say dystopias are boring because the ultimate dystopian story has no conflict reoslution
17:02 < kanzure> it has to be some sort of sick preoccupation with everything going wrong
17:03 < kanzure> somehow everything going wrong isn't boring but everything going right is? shouldn't it be symmetrically boring?
17:20 < nsh> so actually the good stories have a kind of fractal devil's staircase structure of things going better and worse
17:21 < nsh> cantor function / x
17:21 < nsh> or whatever like the prime counting function / the number of actual primes
17:21 < nsh> but not really because that spends almost all its time above zero
17:24 < nsh> Plot[CantorStaircase[x]/x,{x,0,1}]
17:24 < nsh> except wolfram alpha is too stingy to plot it
17:24 < nsh> wasn't there an online SAGE plotter?
17:26 < nsh> lol, or just do it in LaTeX... https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/241622/plotting-the-cantor-function
17:27 < nsh> so yeah like that rotated 45 degrees clockwise -- but obviously not like that because then every story would have the same pattern 
17:28 < nsh> so like that but with the kind of randomness you'd expect if you wanted it to basically level out more or less most of the time but go up and down more stochastically
17:28 < nsh> but you're not really asking about stories in general. you're asking about singularitarian stories
17:29 < nsh> and the pedagogical answer is that they're disproportionately pessimistic so that people like you don't get even more carried away than you already are
17:29 < nsh> :P
17:30 < nsh> (there is a historical tendency that people in too much of a hurry to bring about a perfect world tend to fail. this is as usefully explained by the gods having a predisposition to confound hubristic enthusiasm as in any other more naturalistic manner.)
17:32 < kanzure> at least there's the comics.
17:32 < nsh> hmmmm, sagecloud is now cocalc
17:32 < nsh> people always trying to make money from things
17:32 < nsh> https://cocalc.com/
17:32 < nsh> i guess it pays the bills to keep sage itself free
17:33 < nsh> just like mathematica doesn't
17:34 < nsh> £525 inc. VAT for a year's license as a hobbyist
17:34 < nsh> not even normalised to the hamburger index or something humane
17:35 < nsh> i like stephen wolfram as a scientist but as a human being i'd definitely give him a hefty slap
17:36 < nsh> oh no wait i guesse the 525 is forever with 1 year of service
17:36 < nsh> so i guess that's like maybe a half decent second hand car
17:36 < nsh> for me in the world's third richest country
17:36 < nsh> and i guess it's still trivially cracked for everyone else
17:48 < oxphi> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41587-022-01354-7
17:48 < kanzure> "Transplantation of a human liver following 3 days of ex situ normothermic preservation"
17:51 < maaku> It's nuts that when presented with evidence of an AI learning language, people reject it as just learning mapping of words to concepts, not real language
17:51 < maaku> .t https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31573282
17:51 < saxo> DALL-E 2 has a secret language | Hacker News
17:51 < maaku> like bro, wtf do you think language *is*
17:54 < superkuh> http://karpathy.github.io/2021/03/27/forward-pass/ (short scifi tangent)
18:20 < nsh> maaku, chinese room argument never died
18:21 < nsh> it's basically just a free choice of disposition to believe or not
18:21 < nsh> it's a moot point
18:21 < nsh> the [asymptotically approaching] indistinguishability being evinced
18:21 < nsh> may as well say a baby doesn't have a soul
18:21 < nsh> i prefer to believe the soul *leaves* at the moment of conception
18:21 < nsh> makes a violence more palatable
18:21 < nsh> *all
18:23 < nsh> or rather as the tao te ching puts it, the agitated tao separates into the impure tao which falls to earth as besmirched flesh and the pure tao which rises to heaven as undefiled spirit
18:23 < nsh> thus if someone pisses you off smack them in the gob
18:23 < nsh> and increase the perfection
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20:22 < fenn> there's some new biohackerspace in east oakland/alameda that's not counter culture, but i didn't catch the name
20:22 < fenn> looks more like a typical commercial office space inside
20:22 < fenn> mario gambetti (?) was talking about mushroom culturing
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22:45 < lsneff> .t https://nasjaq.substack.com/p/the-terrapunk-manifesto
22:45 < saxo> the terrapunk manifesto - by Jack Nasjaq - NASJAQ
22:46 < fenn> "the intelligence community would like to save all the cat pictures because you never know which photo will be used to determine which cat set off the bomb."
22:49 < fenn> kanzure, nmz787, who actually wrote this paper? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/Future%20DNA%20synthesis%20technologies%20-%202017-10-22.pdf
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23:32 < maaku> lsneff: what’s old is new again
23:46 < fenn> buildpunk
23:46 < fenn> "it's time to build"
23:47 < fenn> cringepunk, etc.
23:51 < fenn> this may be a controversial statement, but to me, "terra" does not read as "space colonization"
23:51 < fenn> in fact quite the opposite
23:52 < fenn> "squares" already had the mindset in the 1960s
23:53 < fenn> "use ocean mineralization to capture carbon" unfortunately doesn't actually work. this was described in the millennial project as a way to build floating cities, but lab experiments to prove the concept failed to produce a usable material
23:54 < fenn> arguably, cloud seeding (silver iodide smoke released from mount shasta) CAUSED california wildfires, by promoting rapid overgrowth and an abundance of tinder the next dry season
--- Log closed Wed Jun 01 00:00:39 2022