--- Log opened Sun Jun 12 00:00:50 2022
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10:48 < muurkha> kanzure: yeah, DRM for nanofactories was a standard Foresight safety measure
10:49 < muurkha> fenn: what about control over resources?
11:01 < fenn> like how nuclear non-proliferation has been achieved through control of uranium? unfortunately (?) the resources needed are plentiful and widespread
11:02 < fenn> perhaps in the early days, the purified chemicals needed to make the mechanosynthesis reactions "go" will be rare
11:03 < fenn> before long someone will design a fabbable chemical purification plant that runs on sunlight and air
11:03 < fenn> good luck regulating those
11:06 < fenn> you can splice Taq genes into e. coli and then your culture supernatant has PCR activity. but "nobody" does this because they can afford tested proven products from NEBiolabs
11:06 < fenn> perhaps simply the need for a reliable service is reason enough to keep a company afloat
11:07 < fenn> Taq DNA polymerase
11:11 < muurkha> two different threads
11:11 < muurkha> one is that, yes, Foresight was considering worldwide centralized control of nanofabs to keep people from fabbing malbots
11:12 < muurkha> the other is, what is a tradeable scarce bargaining token?  control over resources such as boron, carbon, and oxygen is a tradable scarce bargaining token
11:32 < nmz787> I think what fenn is saying is, once you have nanotech that "mines" fr you from sunlight and air, resource scarcity is no longer meaningful
11:36 < muurkha> I don't think that's true.  there isn't very much air
11:37 < muurkha> only about 5e18 kg
11:38 < muurkha> Pallas alone is 40 times bigger than the air
11:40 < muurkha> it's true that an individual human body doesn't need a million tonnes of material goods to survive, perhaps even indefinitely
11:41 < fenn> but it does need a human body's worth of material goods
11:41 < fenn> as a lower bound
11:41 < muurkha> yes
11:41 < muurkha> but there are projects you could carry out with 1e20 or 1e30 kg of material that you can't carry out with 1e2 kg
11:43 < fenn> i'm having a hard time imagining a world where global control over use of the atmosphere was achieved, but intellectual property controls failed
11:44 < fenn> DRM can't work as a security measure, it's just a shitty lock to keep honest people honest
11:44 < muurkha> it's not even that, it's a way to grant DRM vendors control over the market
11:45 < muurkha> presumably if people go around mining the atmosphere unlimitedly, then the only atmosphere that is left will be the atmosphere that someone excludes others from mining
11:45 < muurkha> after some logarithmic period of time
11:46 < fenn> well there are other sources of materials
11:46 < fenn> there is plenty of carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen in the earth's crust
11:46 < muurkha> well, oxygen anyway
11:46 < fenn> not sure about things like neon or argon
11:47 < muurkha> there's about 5e16 kg of argon in the atmosphere
11:47 < fenn> since it's a radioactive decay product you'd expect to find some dissolved in rock, or trapped in gas bubbles inside rock, or as clathrates
11:48 < muurkha> the earth's crust is larger than the atmosphere but it's only about 6e22 kg
11:49 < fenn> i'm not sure what your goal is in throwing these numbers around
11:49 < muurkha> my main point is that they are scarce resources
11:50 < muurkha> and Earth's crust in particular is likely to be a contentious one because you can't strip-mine it without destroying the biosphere
11:52 < muurkha> an industrialist using a hypothetical self-replicating nanofactory with a weight of 100 mg and a generation time of 2 weeks could finish repurposing the Earth's crust in about 41 months
11:53 < muurkha> or Jupiter in 48 months
11:55 < muurkha> the guy who goes after Jupiter will be able to build things the guy who goes after Earth won't
11:57 < muurkha> and the guy on earth is going to have a hard time enforcing his DRM against nanobots disassembling Jupiter
12:01 < muurkha> but they might be able to usefully trade scarce elements, depending on how energy-intensive nuclear transmutation is
12:04 < muurkha> you can build 1e4 times more O'Neill habs or Bishop rings with 1e27 kg of Jupiter than with 1e23 kg of Earth's crust
12:09 < muurkha> does that help?
12:15 < fenn> "The total mass of heavy elements other than hydrogen and helium in the planet is between 11 and 45 MEarth"
12:15 < fenn> i thought it was bigger tbh
12:16 < fenn> presumably someone will figure out fusion, but it seems like the energy would be worth more than the fusion ash
12:17 < fenn> and then there's the sun itself
12:45 < muurkha> yeah
12:53 < TMA> unfortunately, the sun has two hurdles for miners. (a) the resources are "on fire" (b) they are sitting in a very deep gravity well 
12:55 < muurkha> a third one is that if you put the sun out the solar system will get cold
12:55 < muurkha> but maybe you can keep it warm more efficiently by wrapping bodies you care about in blankets and burning a little bit of your stolen sun-fire under the blankets
12:55 < TMA> muurkha: presumably thats OPP (other people problem) for the miner that can overcome (a) and (b)
12:56 < muurkha> OPP is Other People's Property
12:57 < TMA> many a TLA is ambiguous
12:58 < muurkha> (for the ladies)
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14:53 < docl> put enough of the air in compressed chambers and you end up with a frozen wasteland. but then you could sell the air to the survivors living in habitat chambers maybe
14:54 < muurkha> yeah
14:58 < muurkha> or a baked wasteland during the day
15:00 < docl> a giant permashade cold trap near one of the poles might do it without compressed chambers. at first it would only work for water ice, but as it gets colder and higher up you'd get co2 and eventually true cryogenic conditions (the shades need to be built up at the same time though)
15:11 < muurkha> you're assuming the survivors in the frozen wasteland are just standing by while you do this
15:11 < muurkha> rather than hoarding air themselves
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15:41 < fenn> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXNOyknNwlQ
15:41 < saxo> Perri-Air - YouTube
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16:10 < kanzure> https://www.newsweek.com/laurent-simons-11-second-youngest-graduate-ever-plans-make-humans-immortal-1607168
16:11 < kanzure> wonder how old until he learns quantum physics isn't the path to human immortality
16:13 < muurkha> .t
16:13 < saxo> Boy, 11, Becomes Second Youngest Graduate Ever, Plans to Make Humans Immortal
16:25 < kanzure> my hobby: asking GPT-3 to simulate eliezer yudkowsky giving up on his goals and convincing his followers to do something useful with thier lives
16:26 < kanzure> https://i.imgur.com/bAszmnG.png
16:28 < kanzure> https://i.imgur.com/1zHCFEa.png
16:39 < kanzure> https://imgur.com/a/9OeBI2u
16:48 < fenn> second one is way better?
18:10 < lsneff> “xrisk is a very low probability event, and even it it did happen, it's not clear that it would be a bad thing for humanity”
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--- Log closed Mon Jun 13 00:00:51 2022