--- Log opened Thu Jun 16 00:00:53 2022
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02:57 < lkcl> lsneff, that's incorrect
02:58 < lkcl> amaranth is the Trademark-violating version of nmigen that has, very unfortunately, blatant and deliberate "confusion" built-in to the git history and the ongoing releases
02:59 < lkcl> under Trademark Law the way that the fork was created has created an "Alias" (an "also-known-as") situation
02:59 < lkcl> lsneff, i am the Authorized Maintainer of nmigen, under License from M-Labs.
02:59 < lkcl> please do not make false statements that nmigen is not maintained.
03:58 < lkcl> lsneff, sorry to have to point this out. you've been misled just as much as anyone. there's been efforts to heal the situation ongoing for several months.
03:59 < lkcl> it does absolutely nobody any good for amaranth to be Unlawful.
06:29 < kanzure> lsneff: i thought you said amaranth was unlawfu.. oh that was lsneff.
06:30 < docl> kanzure: you mean lkcl I assume
06:37 < lkcl> docl, yes. the situation is very easy to resolve, and if resolved, the owner of the Trademark (M-Labs) is quite happy to authorise amaranth as a legally-licensed minor fork
06:49 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/eschatonist/status/1537079085520031744
06:49 < saxo> we will never get cool things, people will forever be paralyzed by mediocre cautionary stories (@eschatonist, in reply to tw:1537078135539535872)
06:59 < lkcl> ruefully, it does have to be said that there's a pretty obvious difference between "trampling on people's heads" and "standing on the shoulders of giants" in order to make advances in any area
07:05 < docl> how is m-labs harmed by the existence of amaranth? the software is permissively licensed, and the name is substantially different. I don't think I approve of trademark stuff intruding on FOSS projects, the point is to move away from IP encumberances
07:05 < lkcl> docl, that's a very interesting question, one that is very much misunderstood.
07:06 < lkcl> did you know, there are something like a hundred Trademarks used in OSS?
07:06 < lkcl> Drupal git linux mozilla python rust are just a few i've encountered
07:06 < lkcl> should it be ok, for example, for microsoft to take the linux kernel source code, and declare
07:07 < lkcl> "linux is DEAD! linux is RENAMED to WINUX! come to winux.microsoft.com for all your linux needs, now that we, microsoft, have DECLARED that linux, the project and everything that everyone has contributed to, is DEAD and now CONTROLLED BY MICROSOFT"
07:08 < lkcl> i'd be interested to hear what your feeling would be if anyone attempted to hijack an OSS project in that way
07:09 < docl> I mean, that'd be disinformation
07:09 < lkcl> docl, well, it'd be disinformation only if they didn't *actually* set up the actual website winux.microsoft.com
07:10 < lkcl> but it would be a blatant Trademark violation, actionable (as in: possible for the Linux Foundation to sue Microsoft for damages) on at least three counts.
07:10 < lkcl> but why?
07:10 < lkcl> i mean
07:10 < lkcl> the linux kernel source code is OSS-licensed, right?
07:11 < lkcl> so what is everyone complaining about?
07:11 < lkcl> it's not "disinformation" because the linux kernel source code is GPL-licensed, therefore anyone can do what they like, right
07:11 < lkcl> ?
07:12 < lkcl> how about someone claiming that python is dead, python is RENAMED to "MontyCommercialProject"
07:13 < lkcl> "come to www.monty.commercialproject.org now that python is TERMINATED, and is no longer developed" 
07:13 < docl> if the linux foundation were not actively developing the linux kernel any more it would be a bit more okay to tell people it's dead, right? there has to be some way for users to move on from projects that are abandoned
07:14 < lkcl> if the Trademark Holder of the Linux Trademark (Linux Foundation) abandons the Trademark at the same time as not actively developing the linux kernel, then yes
07:14 < lkcl> but if the Trademark is still valid then you have to be extra-extra-careful
07:15 < lkcl> there's ways to go about doing forks of Trademarks that the CentOS project had to do
07:15 < lkcl> which are hilarious
07:16 < lkcl> they renamed their fork of redhat to something like, "the project without a name that is based on something from a large company"
07:16 < lkcl> :)
07:17 < lkcl> it's ironic though that we want IP to disappear, yet are critically reliant on "IP" (Copyright Law) to protect from exploitation
07:18 < docl> look like amaranth was written as a nmidgen fork, but there was a dispute so they changed their name... I guess the question is why changing their name isn't enough to keep from violating trademark? https://hdl.github.io/awesome/items/nmigen/
07:18 < lkcl> it's how they went about changing the name that is the problem.
07:19 < lkcl> it's been done in such a way as for people such as lsneff, very unfortunately, to *believe* that nmigen, as a project, has been terminated.
07:20 < lkcl> you can see right there in the commit logs, "nmigen is DEAD, nmigen HAS been renamed to amaranth"
07:20 < lkcl> and in the README, and, if you do "import nmigen" you get a huge warning "nmigen is deprecated, please use amaranth"
07:21 < lkcl> all of which are legally actionable for damages because it (a) creates an alias (confusion) (b) gives a false impression
07:22 < lkcl> if the rename had been done "we're starting again with a new HDL project name, we can't tell you what it's based on but if you look on the internet you can find out easily"
07:22 < lkcl> then there would have been absolutely nothing that M-Labs could do about that
07:23 < lkcl> somebody did something similar to Oracle Java, i think
07:24 < lkcl> took a tarball release of java source code, did a full and total global/search/replace, and released it with zero mention of Java(tm) in it, at all
07:24 < lkcl> Oracle freaked out and sued but the case was thrown out
07:24 < lkcl> because all mention of the Trademark (Java) had been removed
07:26 < lkcl> there are really good reasons why Trademarks exist: they provide protection for OSS Projects that simply Copyright Law (OSS Licenses) are completely unable to cover
07:26 < lkcl> like, taking the Drupal project's source code, for example, and *deliberately* inserting viruses, adware and spyware into it
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07:27 < lkcl> that's actually been done, with a *lot* of OSS Projects, and thanks to the OSS Project being Trademarked, they were able to take legal action
07:28 < lkcl> but Copyright Law - the OSS License - *in no way* prevents or prohibits someone from blatantly taking an OSS Project and inserting trojans, ads and viruses into it
07:28 < lkcl> the Trademark however, by virtue of it being brought into disrepute, *can* be used to take legal action against people attempting that
07:28 < lkcl> this has actually happened!
07:29 < lkcl> one OSS Project that had a Trademark started receiving complaints (and legal threats) from angry users because some f****r had taken a copy of their OSS project and inserted spyware in it
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07:39 < lsneff> I’ve heard a very different side of the story.
07:40 < lsneff> Calling forks unlawful isn’t a good look
07:42 < lsneff> Using trademark law to control a project that wasn’t started by you is also a bad look
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07:45 < lsneff> Amaranth doesn’t have malware, please do not try to scare me into agreeing with you
07:45 < lsneff> Regardless of who the government things owns what, amaranth is obviously more actively maintained, and code is what talks
07:45 < docl> feels like amaranth is in a bit of a grey area since people searching for nmidgen will be told it's depricated by some tools, which sucks for people contributing to the old nmidgen. but it's definitely different from the malware example and probably not even an intentional abuse from what I can see
07:49 < lsneff> Also, for full disclosure, I know whitequark, so am unlikely to agree with you because I’ve heard her side of the story directly
07:52 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=b0546bcf Bryan Bishop: transcript: hal finney's zero-knowledge proof of a hash preimage (1998) >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/crypto98-hal-finney-zero-knowledge-proof-of-preimage/
07:53 < sknebel> TIL there's people defending m-labs 
07:54 < lkcl> lsneff, there is a lot more going on that you haven't been told, and has not been made public for very good reasons.
07:55 < lkcl> lsneff, i have no intention of "making" you do anything.
07:56 < lkcl> the only thing that i am specifically requesting is that you not make false statements and false claims that "nmigen is dead, nmigen is unmaintained"
07:57 < lkcl> docl: yes, the spread and extent of what you term "misinformation", but in Trademark Law is termed "confusion", is extreme
08:01 < lsneff> Well, it is unmaintained, I don’t know how I could honestly say it isn’t.
08:01 < kanzure> https://zkp.science/ https://zkproof.org/ 
08:04 < lsneff> And the git history has been completely removed from mlabs’ version, so there’s no way to know when the last time someone worked on it
08:07 < lsneff> Frankly, mlabs seems like a sore loser here. Bringing trademark into oss helps no one. If you want people to stop saying that nmigen is unmaintained, maintain it! Seriously
08:08 < lkcl> lsneff, it is *not* unmaintained. i am the Legally-Authorised Maintainer, under License
08:09 < lsneff> Actually, that’s me not understanding the gitlab ui. Looks there there have been a some commits in the last few months that update dependencies and fix examples.
08:09 < lkcl> yes. and some really important fixes for bugs that are still present in amaranth
08:09 < lkcl> particularly related to DDR3 and PCIe which have caused problems for over 2 years
08:10 < lkcl> i also reviewed 200+ commits (took me several days) and brought it up-to-date
08:10 < lkcl> you would agree that that constitutes "maintenance", i'm sure
08:10 < lkcl> so 
08:10 < lkcl> please
08:10 < lkcl> *don't* make false claims "it's not maintained"
08:10 < lkcl> ok?
08:12 < lsneff> The complicating part is that until the amaranth rename, the vast, vast majority of commits were from whitequark’s fork
08:14 < lkcl> lsneff, indeed. and whitequark has to take the credit for - and be rightly acknowledged for - the incredible work done both during being an employee of M-Labs and when not
08:14 < lkcl> that's never been in doubt, at all, that whitequark deserves full recognition for that work
08:15 < lkcl> it's also not in doubt that, under Employee Law, it is an Employer that owns the Copyright of material by default of the employee, unless there is an explicit agreement otherwise.
08:16 < lkcl> laws vary by country, some make it illegal to claim *all* ownership (including out of working hours)
08:16 < lsneff> So, while you may have the legal right, you certainly don’t have the moral one. Fine, you maintain mlab’s version. However, for anyone who wants to use nmigen, amaranth is the more fully fledged version with more users. I would point people to it instead, especially because mlab’s has tried to pull trademark law into oss
08:17 < lkcl> lsneff, i am assuming by "you" that you are not referring to me, because i (personally) am not the Trademark Holder
08:17 < lsneff> Sure, mlabs, not you
08:18 < lkcl> you mean, "in my opinion, whilst *someone* may have the legal right, *someone* does not, in general, have the moral one"
08:18 < lkcl> this is a tricky one, indeed. it's extremely public that M-Labs is very pissed off with how whitequark behaved, as an employee
08:19 < lkcl> whitequark clearly believes that they're in the right, there
08:20 < lkcl> i really, *really* can't go into more detail on this, though, i'm really sorry
08:27 < lsneff> Hold on, the project under mlabs’ was the migen project?
08:27 < lkcl> kanzure, the graph paper example is a really good one https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2014/11/27/zero-knowledge-proofs-illustrated-primer/
08:28 < lkcl> lsneff, yes. Sebastien create migen, over 15 years ago
08:28 < lkcl> he created MiSOC (milkmist SoC) with video capture, as part of his PhD.
08:29 < lkcl> the litex developers then took up his work and extended it considerably into the peripheral fabric everyone knows that litex has become
08:29 < lkcl> but, there's a lot of problems with migen, which he didn't appreciate at the time, it was a learning curve
08:30 < lkcl> i mean, 15 *years* ago, being one of the very first people in the world to use python for HDL, that was ground-breaking
08:30 < lkcl> there's (relatively) quite a lot of python-based HDL projects now - pyrtl, MyHDL are just two i can recall right now
08:31 < lsneff> Frankly, this is just a game of he said, she said
08:33 < lkcl> about... mmm 4? years ago, Sebastien decided to do something about the problems in migen, and hired an employee to create a new version
08:37 < lsneff> Without the actual terms of the agreement, there’s no way to know whether whitequark breached copyright or not. And the work got done anyway, just externally. Mlabs was certainly not shy about merging in all the changes to mlabs/nmigen.
08:38 < lkcl> ah no, there's never been any breach of copyright.
08:38 < lkcl> (and Hong Kong Employment Law is very clear-cut)
08:39 < lsneff> I see. And when did mlab’s trademark nmigen?
08:39 < lkcl> nobody has said that whitequark isn't a brilliant engineer, or that she doesn't deserve the credit for the amazing work done
08:40 < lkcl> https://uspto.report/TM/88980893
08:41 < lkcl> 2020-05-07 with a "First Commercial Use" date of 2019-09-12
08:41 < lsneff> Why did mlabs trademark nmigen?
08:42 < lkcl> lsneff, honestly that should be self-evident.
08:43 < lkcl> if i can be diplomatic about it: because they're the inventor of the name, and because he came up with the name.
08:44 < lkcl> it's based on a pun of "migen" (new Migen, where the "n" is a joke on electronic signal inversion)
08:44 < lkcl> why did the Python Software Foundation trademark "python"?
08:44 < lkcl> why did the Rust Foundation trademark "rust" and "cargo"?
08:44 < lkcl> yeh?
08:46  * lkcl apologies, going afk, need food / drink.
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09:03 < lsneff> Yet, migen isn’t trademarked?
09:42 < lkcl> i'm amazed at how many there are listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trademarked_open-source_software
09:42 < lkcl> but also surprised that there aren't more
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14:00 < fenn> "we can't tell you what it's based on" is stupid and confusing for the user
14:00 < fenn> of course it's based on nmigen, and you have to know that in order to legally comply with copyright law
14:01 < fenn> it ought to be simple and straightforward for the nmigen website to put up a dated post saying it's not dead, still actively maintained and developed, etc.
14:01 < fenn> your project isn't being harmed by the existence of a fork
14:06 < fenn> the software equivalent of "rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated"
14:19 < fenn> i think you'd get more sympathy for asking people to call it a fork rather than a replacement, instead of going on about trademarks and unlawfulness
14:25 < fenn> there are more projects with trademarks than are listed there, for example audacity (recently had a shitstorm when the project went closed source)
15:18 < muurkha> also trademark law definitely does not prohibit you from saying that project X is a fork of project Y, only from saying that it *is* project Y
15:18 < muurkha> I hadn't heard about the Audacity thing, is there a free fork?
15:20 < muurkha> lkcl: lawsuit threats definitely will not favorably dispose me toward your nmigen, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that, so you might want to rethink your strategy
15:35 < docl> https://github.com/tenacityteam/tenacity
15:35 < docl> project currently on an indefinite hiatus
15:35 < nmz787> lkcl: the one time I tried to say something nice to whitequark (on twitter) they blew up on me (on twitter)... blocked me, then unblocked me. It was weird.
15:36 < nmz787> (this was in response to them saying they felt worthless or something, and I tried to be positive, since y'know, they have a bunch of interesting code online)
15:36 < nmz787> but I got smacked back with something like "don't tell me how to feel"
15:37 < nmz787> I was very confused and it was relatively upsetting
15:37 < nmz787> though I guess they must have been more upset with whatever was going on in their life
15:40 < nmz787> I have no idea what happened with them and mlabs or nmigen/migen.... but all the name changes seem pretty dumb
15:40 < nmz787> like, just friggin keep calling it migen, and update the versions with respect to semver.org
15:41 < nmz787> this seems to work for Windows!
15:41 < nmz787> (I saw a Windows XP Professional screensaver today at a museum and was amused)
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15:43 < docl> https://lab.whitequark.org/
17:49 < maaku> yeah lol, lawsuit threat? I'm never interacting with you ever again for any reason in any context. you no longer exist to me.
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18:40 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=ac9d3889 Bryan Bishop: transcript: austin bitcoin socratic seminar 29 >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/austin-bitcoin-developers/2022-06-16-socratic-seminar-29/
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 17 00:00:54 2022