--- Log opened Sat Jun 18 00:00:55 2022
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02:12 < lkcl> nsh: the simplest dynamic one i've encountered is the Bill of Ethics, by Bob Podolski
02:12 < lkcl> he's the son of the same Podolski from the Einstein-Rosenberg-Podolski (EPR) Proof
02:13 < lkcl> so the Bill of Ethics is actually based on mathematical expressions (put into words)
02:13 < lkcl> https://www.titanians.org/the-bill-of-ethics/
02:14 < lkcl> the fascinating thing is, there's no "didacts" - no "list of proscribed behaviours"
02:15 < lkcl> there's only some advice on how to assess whether an action is "good" or "bad" (note: not whether a PERSON is "good" or "bad")
02:16 < lkcl> and the only recommendation is to act to reduce the *resources* available to that [thing/person/consciousness/entity] such that its effects become moot 
02:17 < lkcl> fenn, yep, it's all "fun" until someone starts, just as i said a couple days ago, trampling on other people's heads to get to the top rather than "stand on the shoulders of giants"
02:18 < lkcl> if that's not happening to you (if you are not being trampled on) then that's fantastic. you can indeed have the luxury of ignoring the tools that are needed
02:19 < lkcl> and you can live the live of fun that everyone, really (i mean this genuinely) should expect and have every right to.
02:30 < nsh> nice lkcl, ty
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03:56 < adlai|alphanum> fenn: I think you're exaggerating the badness of modern legal systems... maybe you are focused only on things like intellectual property waffling?
04:28 < lkcl> adlai|alphanum, mmm... i hope you dont mind me saying that i feel that's a leetle unkind (it made me wince to read). my business associate studied Engineering at Glasgow University in 1980. he said that the most useful course was actually the year studying Law!
04:29 < lkcl> the lecturer deeply impressed on him that the Law is not black-and-white: it's actually "shades of grey"
04:29 < lkcl> oh, and that that's where Lawyers make all their money :)
04:31 < lkcl> nsh, i cannot express how deeply profound i found Bob to be. he was literally the first person i had ever encountered - i was 45 at the time - to be able to explain satisfactorily to me what an "ethical act" is.
04:32 < lkcl> "an ethical act is one that increases Truth, Love, Awareness or Creativity (those being synonyms for the same underlying concept), for one or more people *including yourself*, without decreasing *any* of those same four qualities, for *anyone*"
04:32 < adlai|alphanum> lkcl: I take issue with the word "ever" tacked on to the end of fenn's statement.
04:33 < lkcl> adlai|alphanum, ahh, yes. Bob Podolski would view that as "being certain"
04:33 < lkcl> which sounds like a compliment, until one realises that certainty is a pathological state of mind ;)
04:34 < adlai|alphanum> all yall rationalists will love my example, despite its lack of creativity and appeal to revealed truth: a few of the Ten Commandments are simple answers to "is this legal?" that are as valid in most jurisdictions today as they were in the tribal nomad society that preserved the commandments.
04:36 < adlai|alphanum> the answer to "is directly and deliberately causing death legal?" has become more nuanced over the years, although I doubt most people will tell you, outside of contrived hypothetical arguments, that you should simply kill and then see what a court tells you later.
04:37 < adlai|alphanum> and I think most people will also be able to describe their decision procedures for specific situations of this question (e.g., military combatants; euthenasia; self-defense; etc), and they rarely if ever end with "do whatever you want and then ask the court if you were OK"
04:38 < adlai|alphanum> however, if the legal questions are more along the lines of "is it legal in ACME County to reverse-engineer this widget for purposes of consumer protection?", then sure, I can understand how the answer is "Mu!"
04:42 < adlai|alphanum> ... and fwiw, "test cases" do happen with some significant frequency, where someone who can afford the lawsuit deliberately flies close enough to the sun that they get sued, and then the court's decision establishes precedent as a common good for folks in similar situations who could not afford the lawsuit so took care not to draw attention.
04:43 < adlai|alphanum> could the answer be the opposite of what folks wanted to hear? of course.
04:44 < adlai|alphanum> is there Truth Love Awareness and Creativity in being able to definitively answer the "is this legal?"-question with, "here's what the court said yesterday about the test case that is almost identical to your situation"... ? probably not directly, although the definitive answer definitely frees up time for Creating Love, Truth, and Awareness or whatever the fuck that underlying pink fuzzyness is.
04:46  * adlai|alphanum imagines this hybrid of "Truth, Love, Awareness, [and] Creativity" being the metaphysical polar opposite of ... fossil fuels, for lack of a more infamous useful resource.
04:47 < adlai|alphanum> perhaps a less angry statement is that it's metaphysically orthogonal to ... calories!
04:48 < adlai|alphanum> calories being the ability to do anything, and this underlying feelgoody concept being _both_ the leisure and intelligence to choose what to do.
04:49 < adlai|alphanum> I do like the principle of judging actions, instead of people.
04:49 < adlai|alphanum> it leaves open the optimism, that people are able to learn and improve.
04:51 < adlai|alphanum> .title
04:51 < saxo> URLError: <urlopen error [SSL: CERTIFICATE_VERIFY_FAILED] certificate verify failed (_ssl.c:720)> (title:73)
04:51 < adlai|alphanum> ... the document lkcl linked is refreshingly short, so I'll read the entire thing before ranting further.
04:52 < lkcl> adlai|alphanum, there's an even shorter version called the Titanian's "Code of Honour"
04:53 < lkcl> https://www.titanians.org/titanian-code-of-honor/
04:56 < lkcl> adlai|alphanum, going over what you wrote about 10 commandments / nomad societies: amazingly, Trademark Law actually extends back to Roman times.
04:58 < adlai|alphanum> I am not a fan of much of the Bill of Ethics's phrasing, although that's more due to my personal aversion to bureaucracies.
04:58 < lkcl> and whilst "restitution" is illegal in Western societies, in England, if you killed a father of a family, the Law made *you* responsible for that family's upkeep
04:58 < lkcl> yes, it's a little... dry, due to having been written by physicists / mathematicians
04:58 < adlai|alphanum> in my mind's eye, it's the kind of document that gets printed, signed, photocopied, framed, hung on the walls of offices, and ignored.
04:58 < lkcl> it isn't being ignored *at all* in the city of Acapulco!
04:59 < lkcl> they invited Bob to teach them about it, a few years ago
05:00 < lkcl> they then wrote to the Mexican Government, "thank you very much, we're declaring independence. we don't want your protection, your services, and we're not paying you taxes... BYE".
05:00 < adlai|alphanum> well, it might be important to conversations within the legislature; it's probably not even ignored by the city, proper.
05:00 < lkcl> their solution to crime is that they simply drive them to the edge of the city limits, and say "have a nice life, don't come back"
05:01 < adlai|alphanum> I do find clauses 2.7 and 2.9 valuable - they draw a contrast between what's opposed to the kind of behavior the document aims to promote, and what is 'merely natural'.
05:01 < lkcl> they practiced what they preach: the ENTIRE TOWN would have had to have voted - 100% - for it to be passed.
05:01 < adlai|alphanum> specifically, they've got 'entropic' as 'destructive', rather than "nature being nature, entropy, whoo"
05:02 < adlai|alphanum> how populous is this town?
05:02 < lkcl> yeah although it's a bit tedious, it really helps that they use scientifically-accurate terms
05:02 < adlai|alphanum> .wik acapulco mexico
05:02 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acapulco_mexico gave 404 | Searched en for 'acapulco mexico' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
05:02 < adlai|alphanum> blech.
05:02 < lkcl> i don't exactly know but the number 75,000 springs to mind?
05:03 < lkcl> you don't see many contracts using words like "entropic" :)
05:04 < adlai|alphanum> we talking about the same Acapulco, "major seaport in the state of Guerrero" ?
05:04 < adlai|alphanum> wikipedia says it's almost 700k people. that is a lot for 100% referendums!
05:05 < adlai|alphanum> I don't think I could get seventy people from my city block to agree on anything, let alone an abstract instruction for judging codes of ethics.
05:06 < lkcl> just doing a quick search "acapulco bob podolski" throws up a lot of interviews etc. etc.
05:07 < lkcl> https://www.titanians.org/getting-rid-of-hierarchy/
05:08 < lkcl> Bob's idea of working with between 7 and 8 people was based on a very large social study.  they then named that an "Octologue"
05:08 < lkcl> and then further, if you have larger groups, such that you have multiple "Octologues" collaborating (and/or negotiating contracts), he termed that a "Holomat"
05:09 < lkcl> absolutely NONE of this involves ANYONE else telling you what you HAVE to do.  there is NO "Authority" other than *you*, the individual.
05:10 < adlai|alphanum> in one of Asimov's Foundation novels, the ideal committee size is argued at twelve, due to its factorizability.
05:10 < lkcl> fascinatingly, in Japan, companies are run entirely 100% on unanimous decision-making
05:10 < lkcl> adlai|alphanum, interesting!
05:10 < lkcl> Bob (and John David Garcia's) research showed that above 7-8 people you end up with more communication than you do action.
05:11 < lkcl> the study involved 200+ people iirc
05:11 < adlai|alphanum> Japan is also a society that's got much more respect for individual leadership. I'm blanking on positive words to describe the opposite of democracy, without making it sound like fascism.
05:11 < adlai|alphanum> I guess "monarchy" is not necessarily a negative word, although "fuedalism" generally has negative connotations in modern western democracies.
05:11 < lkcl> the word i heard which made sense to me was "anarcho-capitalism"
05:12 < lkcl> mono-archy (single authority)
05:12 < lkcl> hier-archy (overarching authority)
05:12 < lkcl> an-archy (no authority: self-responsibility, self-governance)
05:13 < lkcl> the other fascinating one is that Visa used to be 100% ethical / unanimous decision-making!  no managers *at all*!
05:13  * adlai|alphanum wonders whether he can locate a copy of the relevant excerpt from a Gene Wolfe novel, in less hair-rending anger at the miserable state of the modern world than simply opening a book and typing into the computer
05:14 < lkcl> then it got bought out by VCs and they imposed a top-down management structure
05:14 < lkcl> adlai|alphanum, :)
05:14 < adlai|alphanum> does binary search for a specific paragraph, through a book I've read half a dozen times, count as using a search engine?
05:15 < adlai|alphanum> hands - levers, actuators; brain - controller; searching? engine.
05:15 < lkcl> only if you build a Lego Mindstorms robot to move the pages
05:21 < adlai|alphanum> let's seee......
05:21 < adlai|alphanum> .title https://novel80.com/page-35-120768.html
05:21 < saxo> Read The Shadow of the Torturer Page 35 online free by Gene Wolfe - Novel80
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05:22 < adlai|alphanum> quote pertaining to "the seven sorts [of governance]":
05:22 < adlai|alphanum>   35:"Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline or other sequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to a code
05:22 < adlai|alphanum>   36:legitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only. Attachment to a greater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law. Attachment to an
05:22 < adlai|alphanum>   37:abstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal."
05:25 < adlai|alphanum> the excerpts in that one webpage don't much spoil the book, if you're afraid of spoilers.
05:27  * adlai|alphanum feels far fewer qualms linking to such a site now that the author is no longer, uh, ... translating revelations beamed back in time from postapocalytic civilizations, or whatever he called it.
05:32 < lkcl> nice premise
05:33 < adlai|alphanum> I suppose the quoted progression can be seen as a form of depersonalisation: from governor, through government, and eventually only governance remains.
05:36  * adlai|alphanum always found it a curious factoid, that Gene Wolfe was supposedly a confirmed, communion-consuming, Catholic; yet wrote such incredibly imaginative and undoubtedly blasphemous novels.
05:38 < adlai|alphanum> I guess the trivial defense would be that, at least in the case of Book of the New Sun (the series starting with the book from which I quoted), there is simply no statement about any of the semitic people and symbols.
05:38 < adlai|alphanum> any such parallel is only interpretation by modern readers, searching for one.
05:40 < lkcl> my mum knows of a book that was written by a Jesuit Priest and an Orthodox Rabbi. they agreed to collaborate only if they promised not to try to convert each other to their respective religions :)
05:40 < lkcl> they used their respective knowledge of the Old Testament (original Hebrew, Greek translation) to find the stupid-mistakes
05:41 < adlai|alphanum> in Islamic legal systems, there's even some sort of clause or qualification for not converting 'peoples of earlier revelations'.
05:41 < lkcl> such as "Eye of a Needle" which was a well-known idiomatic phrase for the night door in a City Wall.
05:41  * adlai|alphanum is worse than not an expert; only some idiot who read a glossary a few times
05:41 < lkcl> extremely narrow (2ft wide), very deep corridor (because the city walls are typically several feet thick) and of course if you arrived after the main gates were closed, you had to force your camel into an extremely narrow tunnel
05:42 < adlai|alphanum> camels can probably shuffle along on their knees, no?
05:42 < lkcl> hence, "it is easier for a camel to pass through the NIGHT-DOOR than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"
05:42 < lkcl> yes but they *really* don't like doing so when forced - in the dark - through a small gap :)
05:42 < lkcl> but
05:42 < adlai|alphanum> they don't sleep standing up, they have a calloused fifth point of contact with the ground projecting from the sternum.
05:43 < lkcl> the person who did the translation into greek had *no idea* of idiomatic phrases in Hebrew!
05:43 < lkcl> so they *literally* translated "NIGHT DOOR" to "Eye of the Needle"
05:43 < lkcl> :)
05:43 < adlai|alphanum> it's still a wonderful metaphor!
05:43 < lkcl> true :)
05:44 < lkcl> there are many more like that, that the two learned people identified
05:44 < lkcl> that's just the one that i remember
05:44 < adlai|alphanum> there are also rock formations called "eye of the needle" in certain climbing routes. I forget the specific one I've read about, although it could be quite a task to even lead a camel up there.
05:45 < adlai|alphanum> what was their book about?
05:46 < lkcl> specifically, the mistakes made by greek translators of the Old Testament from the original Hebrew
05:46 < lkcl> they did a full walk-through page by page, then discussed the discrepancies
05:47 < adlai|alphanum> ah. I was hoping for something less... academic.
05:47 < lkcl> but it was only because they had both done such deep historic studies that they were able to find them.
05:47 < lkcl> i've not read it myself, it was my mum who did, so i've no idea other than that one example whether the book's "readable" or not
05:48 < adlai|alphanum> the discussion with someone who did not share all the same interpretations probably also helped.
05:48 < lkcl> i'd surmise so, yes.
08:50 < fenn> THIS is his takeaway from industrial automation??? "The most common cause of human death today is poverty. By contrast, prosperity is a great life-saver. It doesn’t take a great deal more prosperity for you to be able to eat better food, wear better clothes, live in a better house or apartment, drive a more reliable car, and receive better health-care."
08:51 < fenn> this is so SL0 (maybe even SL-1)
08:51 < fenn> (that's shock level minus one)
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16:18 < kanzure> hmph
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19:13 < fenn> "The best toy I ever got was an olympus IR500 with a folding screen. You could point the camera straight into someone's face and they wouldn't know because you'd be looking into your hand like you had a palm pilot. When I started looking through that screen, I realized that the whackitude to which highly sensitive children are allergic is everywhere. In glare, gait, and posture, conspiracies are
19:13 < fenn> forming around you all the time."
19:49 < L29Ah> the what?
20:06 < fenn> whackitude
20:06 < fenn> do you even linguo brah
20:07 < L29Ah> i don't understand what that person wanted to tell
20:07 < L29Ah> what he realized, i mean
--- Log closed Sun Jun 19 00:00:56 2022