--- Log opened Mon Jun 20 00:00:57 2022
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01:06 < TMA> it is a multistep process, the first step is of course some photosensitivity, the ability to detect the light (the first eye-step, to have some neural circuitry to process sensory input is a requirement enabling making use of the photosensitive cells, hence enabling the lineage with them to be selected)
01:08 < TMA> then cluster those cells in one place, which will tell the approximate direction of incoming light, thereafter the pit, ...
01:16 < adlai|alphanum> it's difficult for humans to conduct experiments on million- or billion-year timescales... Jared Diamond describes in the book Guns, Germs, and Steel how you can interpret certain situations found in nature as though they were parts of experiments, to partially compensate for this.
01:17 < adlai|alphanum> in the case of the eye's evolution, it's worth noting that there have been a few independent evolutions of eye morphology: cephalopods, arthropods, and vertebrates.
01:18 < adlai|alphanum> aiui, except for the specific light-sensitive molecules, the three different eye morphologies are completely different.
01:18 < adlai|alphanum> e.g. the cephalopod eyes are open to seawater, all the way up to the retina.
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05:41 < kanzure> before you get to pits and angular discrimination you have simple photoreceptors and light sensitive cells that accumulate in one region or another
05:43 < kanzure> looks like TMA covered that for me.
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10:50 < kanzure> my dall-e attempts https://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/dall-e/
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11:05  * fenn looks around for the "upvote" button
11:06 < fenn> buff wizard president yoda
11:07 < kanzure> https://www.craiyon.com/
11:15 < fenn> doesn't work for me. i can't even get the FAQ drop downs to open
11:17 < superkuh> Even when it does work it doesn't work.
11:18 < superkuh> Waited 150 seconds to get a "Too much traffic, please try again in 15 seconds."
11:32 < fenn> blaming 4chan seems to be the popular thing to do
11:35 < kanzure> worked on my phone
11:35 < superkuh> I guess Firefox 97 isn't new enough. I get the same error on it and Pale Moon.
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14:50 < kanzure> http://www.vlsiip.com/amba/axi_vs_ahb.html
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16:24 < kanzure> "Low-cost, open-source XYZ nanopositioner for high-precision analytical applications" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468067222000621
16:25 < kanzure> "The results show that the full-scan ranges of the horizontal and vertical nanopositioners were 3.75 and 3.29 µm, respectively. The short travel range in the high-resolution scanning mode is suitable for high precision applications such as high-resolution imaging in AFM [29]. Moreover, the average slopes of the displacement versus driving voltage curves were approximately 25.0 nm/V and 21.9 ...
16:25 < kanzure> ...nm/V for the horizontal and vertical nanopositioners, respectively. The slopes can be used to convert the electrical noise of the driving controller into displacements for evaluating the spatial resolution. By using a commercial AttoCube controller with an electrical noise of 5 mV (peak to peak, bandwidth = 20 MHz), sub-nanometer precision (horizontal: 0.125 nm, vertical: 0.11 nm) can be ...
16:25 < kanzure> ...achieved."
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18:14 < muurkha> I think we talked about En-Twe Hwu's HardwareX article the other day in here
18:15 < muurkha> this is the one that uses NdFeB magnets to grip the stage, allowing it to either stick or slip
18:16 < muurkha> fenn: I think the most common cause of human death today is aging
18:17 < muurkha> "whackitude" is probably "insanity", L29Ah and TMA
18:18 < fenn> just generally people behaving rudely because they think nobody is watching
18:20 < muurkha> nmz787: git is primarily designed for using email for its workflow, which is why "git am" has a shorter name than "git pull" :)
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18:25 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1539047768248958977
18:25 < saxo> The cause of freedom everywhere, around the globe, is up against enemies with nearly unlimited resources. // If you have limited resources, you need to be extremely smart & strategic about your acts of freedom fighting. // Take calculated risks and most importantly, survive. https://twitter.com/gladstein/status/1539043551396306948 (@kanzure)
18:25 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1539055758981070849
18:25 < saxo> Rebel Alliance won the war against the Empire not by committing random acts of freedom fighting, but by being strategic, coordinated yet private, and organized to make use of the limited resources they had. // The freedom movement needs a master strat. (@kanzure, in reply to tw:1539047768248958977)
18:26 < muurkha> error 43: reasoning from fictional evidence
18:26 < muurkha> I was wondering if you can repurpose the ultrasonic piezoelectric drivers from ultrasonic cleaner baths for this, and they do look pretty promising
18:27 < kanzure> has curtis yarvin written anything lately? i see this: https://graymirror.substack.com/p/policies-of-the-deep-right
18:28 < muurkha> haven't seen anything
18:28 < kanzure> there needs to be some sort of master strat for this stuff, not just "hey run some tor exit nodes and take the fall for people downloading CP to fight the man" or whatever
18:29 < muurkha> the main master strategy you need is to keep one person "fighting for freedom" from accidentally fighting against another person "fighting for freedom"
18:29 < muurkha> the ultrasound bath thingies have 30-45 kHz resonant frequencies, 30-50 watts rated power, and about 10mm of thickness, which at 2000 microstrains (feasible for PZT) would give you 20 microns of travel
18:29 < kanzure> or "The only effective altruism is monarchism" https://graymirror.substack.com/p/the-diminishing-returns-of-intelligence
18:30 < muurkha> things like that make it clear that if yarvin is "fighting for freedom" his "freedom" is definitely not what I understand by the term :)
18:34 < kanzure> oh, sorry, my terminology doesn't currently intersect there
18:34 < muurkha> with what?
18:34 < kanzure> the things in his post
18:35 < kanzure> i was just clicking around to see if he had a master strategy that doesn't suck and achieves at least something
18:35 < L29Ah> 03:25:18]<kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1539055758981070849
18:35 < L29Ah> https://archive.org/details/second-realm-digital
18:37 < muurkha> I think Yarvin's objective is universal enslavement, not freedom
18:38 < muurkha> but as long as nobody is trying to get one of us to pledge loyalty to the master strategy of the other, it doesn't really matter; if he does something that promotes freedom then I'll benefit from it anyway
18:39 < muurkha> I'm amused at his assertion, "Intelligence is not in any way a form of magic. It is just a way of finding patterns in the world. Above the level of a very smart human, relatively few patterns will be left..." — either he already has a superhuman AI in a box or he's bullshitting here ;)
18:39 < L29Ah> i think a person who writes Urbit shouldn't be taken seriously, but NRx has its good points that bring it closer to reality than anarchy, for instance
18:40 < muurkha> haha
18:42 < muurkha> well, certainly re-establishing monarchy is a thing that has been done many times in the past, while peaceful, advanced anarchy seems to have been achieved zero times so far
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18:42 < muurkha> so in that sense NRx is closer to reality than anarchy.  but we should find that fact menacing, not comforting!
18:43 < L29Ah> depends on how hard you think you want to hit the status quo
18:44 < muurkha> anarchy would surely be a bigger change
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18:44 < L29Ah> and a more expensive one
18:44 < muurkha> I suppose it depends on your technology?
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18:44 < muurkha> there are surely numerous cases of relatively peaceful anarchies
18:45 < muurkha> I would say "in history" but virtually all of them have been illiterate
18:45 < kanzure> once you get to the last turtle it's just anarchy the rest of the way down
18:45 < L29Ah> technology is expensive too, and some technologies (mostly informational) are specifically required for anarchies and not much else, so need to be funded somehow
18:46 < L29Ah> for instance, we still don't have a protocol for a decentralized internet
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18:46 < L29Ah> while we're watching the internet, as a medium, bending and crumbling to corporations and governments
18:46 < muurkha> agreed
18:47 < muurkha> and Korean princes
18:47 < L29Ah> korean princes are on the application layer, while i'm speaking of the transport one
18:47 < muurkha> heh
18:48 < muurkha> now that I can tunnel my VPN over HTTP I no longer follow that religion :)
18:48 < kanzure> for a decentralized internet protocol i think we could get a very high latency sneakernet meshnet thing
18:48 < kanzure> but it would only be usable for saying things very slowly
18:48 < L29Ah> er, s/transport/network/
18:48 < kanzure> (not suitable for real-time coordination of large groups of people.... which may be an acceptable tradeoff to make)
18:49 < muurkha> it's all context-dependent
18:49 < L29Ah> kanzure: it won't take off if you don't provide payments to people who move your drives around
18:49 < kanzure> uh, details of the scheme are left to the reader
18:49 < kanzure> (thanks lazyweb)
18:49 < muurkha> as the Rwandan genocide showed, AM talk readio is probably best for real-time coordination of large groups of people
18:49 < L29Ah> the transfer price negotiation must be included in the meshnet protocol
18:49 < muurkha> *radio
18:50 < L29Ah> AM sucks as it's trivial to spoof
18:50 < muurkha> traditionally this is solved by a means somewhat similar to Bitcoin
18:50 < L29Ah> and will be spoofed when you start interfering with bigger actors
18:51 < L29Ah> yes, attaching some cryptocurrency to the meshnet protocol sounds like a good plan
18:51 < muurkha> namely, if you can't afford a 150-kilowatt radio transmitter, you can't spoof one
18:52 < muurkha> (except in a very small area)
18:54 < superkuh> The main problem to solve with meshnets is height above terrain.
18:54 < L29Ah> superkuh: a decent meshnet can fund or rent long-range fiber channels
18:55 < superkuh> Sure. We agree that a functioning meshnet requires money.
18:55 < L29Ah> no net neutrality for you tho
18:55 < superkuh> But I'd argue even local meshnets require money.
18:55 < superkuh> Except in geographically contrived scenarios.
18:56 < L29Ah> virtually no money at densities of over one node per 100m
18:56 < muurkha> superkuh: at low bandwidths you can use frequencies that are low enough for antipodal QRP
18:57 < superkuh> I disagree. 100m is pretty far. I personally have trouble when the 100m includes a small rise in the land.
18:57 < superkuh> http://superkuh.com/blog/2019-11-05-1.html - alternate ways to get height and what are their DIY enabling technologies
18:57 < muurkha> one node per 100m sounds like it would cost at least US$1000 per square kilometer, which sounds expensive to me
18:58 < kanzure> why not sneakernet? lots of people have regular daily commutes.
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18:58 < kanzure> and trucking routes.. all sorts of weird stuff.
18:59 < muurkha> sneakernet with short-range microwave links is potentially useful yeah
18:59 < muurkha> also trains
18:59 < L29Ah> you can't even buy pizza for bitcoin over sneakernet-based meshnet
18:59 < kanzure> like i said, it's not for urgent real-time communication
18:59 < kanzure> and pizza definitely counts as urgent
18:59 < L29Ah> everything is urgent except santa-barbara
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19:01 < muurkha> superkuh: https://hackaday.com/2016/03/08/how-low-can-you-go-the-world-of-qrp-operation/ mentions a 2600+ kilometer conversation on the 10-meter band using one microwatt
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19:02 < muurkha> so I don't think it's true that 100 meters is "pretty far"
19:02 < L29Ah> depends a lot on the desired bandwidth
19:02 < muurkha> yeah
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19:02 < muurkha> 100 meters is pretty far for 2.4 GHz
19:03 < fenn> kite balloons
19:03 < superkuh> muurkha, what I'm saying applies to anything above HF without ionospheric propagation. Because in most regulatory regimes the baud (or data) rate for ionospheric propagation is severely restricted.
19:04 < muurkha> who cares about the regulatory regime if your transmit power is too low for the regulators to detect?
19:04 < superkuh> Okay. Different conversation.
19:04 < superkuh> Or, I guess I have different goals.
19:04 < muurkha> but in HF your baud rate is kind of inherently restricted anyway
19:04 < fenn> optical bounce off cloud layer
19:04 < L29Ah> no cloud layer today above me
19:04 < fenn> no meshnet for you today then
19:05 < L29Ah> no, i demand my meshnet
19:05 < fenn> i hear your demand
19:05 < superkuh> Glen Elmore has demonstrated enough power over the surface wave transmission line to power a quadcopter at the other end with an RF rectifier.
19:05 < superkuh> Uses 28 awg single wire.
19:05 < muurkha> fenn: there's also radio bounce off meteor trails and moonbounce
19:05 < kanzure> selling people on a sneakernet might be a little difficult given the addiction to immediacy.. maybe compensation can overcome the users degeneracy.
19:06 < muurkha> says the guy who's on IRC
19:06 < L29Ah> also i wonder what's the bandwidth of modulating a $3 laser pointer with a $1 mosfet
19:06 < fenn> muurkha: moonbounce seems like it wouldn't scale to the whole planet very well
19:06 < L29Ah> i would guess over a megabit per second
19:06 < kanzure> muurkha: you can also correspond with me by email
19:06 < muurkha> also, extra-ionospheric transmission through whistlers might be useful
19:06 < muurkha> kanzure: thank you, you are also welcome to email me
19:06 < kanzure> wait what
19:06 < muurkha> L29Ah: yeah, probably over 100 megabits per second
19:07 < fenn> L29Ah: http://ronja.twibright.com
19:07 < kanzure> now that's a link i haven't seen in a long time
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19:07 < L29Ah> Warning: fopen(ronja_log.txt): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/clock/www/twibright.com/ronja/various_funcs.php on line 20 Warning: fwrite() expects parameter 1 to be resource, boolean given in /home/clock/www/twibright.com/ronja/various_funcs.php on line 21 Warning: fclose() expects parameter 1 to be resource, boolean given in /home/clock
19:07 < kanzure> looks like the php backing it is having some bitrot
19:07 < L29Ah> no various funcs for me
19:08 < fenn> huh works for me (dillo)
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19:08 < muurkha> superkuh: that's a pretty exciting power transmission level, but how do you get a transmission line out of a single wire?
19:08 < kanzure> keep looking, you'll see it
19:08 < superkuh> The launchers on the ends.
19:08 < superkuh> Think of it like an inside-out waveguide.
19:09 < superkuh> The gobau line was an older version that used a thin dielectric cladding to achieve the same result.
19:09 < L29Ah> fenn: what's the current upstream dillo repo?
19:09 < fenn> 10 MBit, ~2W, 1.4km distance, red LEDs and two cheap magnifying glass optics
19:09 < fenn> i don't know, sorry
19:10 < muurkha> L29Ah: in general small cheap LEDs have nanosecond switching times because they aren't big enough to be slow
19:10 < superkuh> http://www.sonic.net/~n6gn/
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19:10 < L29Ah> laser pointers aren't quite LEDs at small timescales
19:10  * fenn mumbles about small cheap LEDs pumping a fiber laser
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19:17 < muurkha> L29Ah: how so?
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19:26 < muurkha> superkuh: with respect to sintering and pressing requirements, I think homemade sintered clay ceramics are a pretty mainstream thing for hobbyists to make.  I can't think of a comparable hobby that involves powder pressing offhand but hand-operated hydraulic jacks for changing truck tires can apply the necessary pressure
19:27 < superkuh> http://superkuh.com/blog/2019-11-07-1.html
19:29 < muurkha> .t
19:29 < saxo> No title found
19:29 < muurkha> "Microwave ferrites: can they be made DIY? No. But I learned I was asking the wrong question.
19:29 < muurkha> thanks!
19:29 < L29Ah> muurkha: they take time to bounce around between their mirrors to gain strength, no?
19:30 < muurkha> L29Ah: surely not entire nanoseconds of time, they aren't nearly big enough
19:32 < fenn> depends how many bounces you need
19:33 < muurkha> superkuh: I see you have a bottle-jack-based hydraulic press on the page :)
19:33 < muurkha> sintering at 900° is not terribly hard; potters commonly sinter ball clay at 1040° or more in home electric kilns
19:34 < fenn> it's still hotter than a kitchen oven
19:34 < muurkha> fenn: I'm not sure semiconductor lasers actually need *any* bounces
19:35 < fenn> this is all moot because you can use an LED instead of a laser
19:35 < L29Ah> fenn: making your own optical system is more expensive
19:35 < fenn> the LED is enough like a point source that the laser brightness doesn't actually get you anything
19:35 < L29Ah> while laser pointer modules are dirt cheap
19:35 < muurkha> there are non-Fabry-Perot lasers but apparently semiconductor diodes are typically not among them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_diode#Optical_cavity_and_laser_modes
19:39 < muurkha> fiber lasers typically are non-Fabry-Perot, and there's an electrically-excited open-air spark laser that's popular with hobbyists that has a clever acronym I forget
19:39 < superkuh> If you have line of sight for optical then wifi will probably work and be cheaper and less finicky.
19:40 < muurkha> probably
19:40 < L29Ah> wifi lacks range w/o fancy antennas, but they aren't hard to make either
19:40 < muurkha> fenn: I think you also need tighter temperature control than a kitchen oven typically has.  also my kitchen oven is gas and so would tend to reduce the ferrite
19:41 < fenn> crimp a stainless foil bag
19:41 < muurkha> yeah, definitely that is a thing you can do
19:41 < L29Ah> implying you put your thing into the gas stream
19:41 < fenn> why is temperature control important?
19:41 < L29Ah> gas stove can reach 1100 btw
19:41 < muurkha> potters commonly use something called a "saggar" instead of stainless foil
19:41 < fenn> doubt
19:42 < fenn> .wik saggar
19:42 < saxo> "A saggar (also misspelled as sagger or segger) is a type of kiln furniture. It is a ceramic boxlike container used in the firing of pottery to enclose or protect ware being fired inside a kiln." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saggar
19:42 < muurkha> my gas stove definitely does not reach 1100°
19:42  * L29Ah made constantan-copper thermocouple on a gas stove
19:42 < fenn> you mean holding it in a direct flame?
19:42 < L29Ah> yes
19:43 < muurkha> you need tight temperature control for sintering because for any material the temperature for sintering is about 50° below the temperature at which the material melts
19:43 < muurkha> so if your temperature control is looser than that, you will either melt the material instead of sintering it, or you will fail to sinter it
19:43 < L29Ah> or you can just play around and see what time, intensity and distance from the flame you want for best results
19:44 < muurkha> and if you have tighter temperature control than that, you can sinter the material much faster, which is desirable
19:44 < fenn> makes sense
19:44 < muurkha> L29Ah: does the copper-nickel system have a eutectic?
19:44 < L29Ah> idk
19:45 < muurkha> I've had a hard time getting even small things up to 1100° even with a butane hand blowtorch
19:45 < fenn> i've managed to fire clay without any temperature control, and never managed to fully melt it
19:46 < L29Ah> my stove was plugged into the communal gas pipe, so likely fed from a methane mine thousands of kilometers away
19:46 < fenn> is this just a lucky coincidence of how combustion temperature of wood works out in earth's atmosphere?
19:46 < muurkha> looks like there isn't a copper-nickel eutectic, copper is the lowest-temperature melter: https://sv.rkriz.net/classes/MSE2094_NoteBook/96ClassProj/OLD/examples/cu-ni.html
19:46 < muurkha> .t
19:46 < saxo> Cu-Ni EXAMPLE
19:47 < muurkha> fenn: typically potters do monitor their kilns to avoid accidentally melting their wares, if only by watching the color through a peephole
19:47 < muurkha> and often with pyrometric cones
19:48 < muurkha> but especially with red clay you can completely melt some of the phases while most of the materials are hundreds of degrees from their melting points
19:49 < muurkha> this won't give you fully vitrified ware, but terracotta is perfectly adequate for many purposes
19:49 < muurkha> I'm no expert on sintering though
19:49 < fenn> is that process called sintering?
19:50 < muurkha> sintering is a process where the grains of your material remain solid in the center but melt at the surface
19:50 < muurkha> this enables them to stick together without losing their shape
19:50 < fenn> what's liquid phases and solid phases in the same shape called
19:50 < fenn> of different materials
19:51 < muurkha> slush
19:51 < muurkha> I mean it's still slush if it's the same material
19:51 < muurkha> I don't think there's a general term for wet powders though
19:51 < fenn> weird
19:51 < muurkha> .wik sintering
19:51 < saxo> "Sintering or frittage is the process of compacting and forming a solid mass of material by heat or pressure without melting it to the point of liquefaction. /  Sintering happens as part of a manufacturing process used with metals, ceramics, plastics, and other materials." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintering
19:53 < muurkha> .wik liquid-state sintering
19:53 < saxo> Article not found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid-state_sintering gave 404 | Searched en for 'liquid-state sintering' | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_result_found gave 404 | Searched en for 'No result found'
19:54 < fenn> .wik liquid phase sintering
19:54 < saxo> "Liquid phase sintering is a sintering technique that uses a liquid phase to accelerate the interparticle bonding of the solid phase." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_phase_sintering
19:54 < muurkha> "Liquid phase sintering is the process of adding an additive to the powder which will melt before the matrix phase."
19:55 < L29Ah> still, i think that meshnet is primarily an informational problem; all the hardware is already accessible
19:56 < L29Ah> global meshnet, that is
19:57 < L29Ah> and currently humans lack coordination to bring it up due to problems like routing complexity and the tragedy of commons
19:59 < fenn> or organizational sabotage by TLAs
19:59 < muurkha> indeed
20:00 < muurkha> which is a way for humans to lack coordination
20:00 < muurkha> global meshnet probably requires long-distance links, which are probably either line-of-sight or low-bandwidth
20:00 < L29Ah> muurkha: optical fiber is cheap
20:00 < fenn> global meshnet is Starlin
20:00 < fenn> k
20:00 < muurkha> laying it isn't
20:01 < muurkha> everybody obeying Elon is one way to get humans to coordinate
20:01 < L29Ah> it isn't cheap for conventional ISPs as well
20:01 < muurkha> cf. Yarvin's monarchism
20:01 < muurkha> but it would be nice to have a better alternative than global despotism
20:01 < L29Ah> also nothing stops a good meshnet protocol from exploiting the existing conventional links when it's the cheapest option
20:02 < muurkha> laws might; so might anti-competitive behavior
20:02 < L29Ah> anyway, i'll repeat my reading recommendation, https://archive.org/details/second-realm-digital, i'd say it's a nice followup to the New Libertarian Manifesto; cya
20:06 < muurkha> thank you!
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--- Log closed Tue Jun 21 00:00:58 2022