--- Log opened Wed Jun 22 00:00:59 2022
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02:46 < adlai|alphanum> nmz787: I'm also a bit surprised by your rationalisation, although for a different reason - the pervailing opinions about evolution of eyes (there is no "the", when the unrooted tree of life has at least three radically different macrostructures that fit the bill) are quite parsimonous, whereas any theory involving an initial stage of evolution in a separate microorganism, followed by symbiotic
02:46 < adlai|alphanum> absorption, does somewhat fail Occam's Razor.
02:48 < adlai|alphanum> obviously some things in evolutionary biology are ludicrously roundabout; yet if there is already a reasonably direct evolutionary path, with plenty of evidence that has already been published, then searching for more circuitous possible paths seems... at best, a harmless distraction, although possibly a waste of perfectly good curiosity and effort.
02:50 < adlai|alphanum> when I was first reading micro/evolutionary biology stuff independently, one thing that struck me repeatedly as implausible was the level of structure encountered in microorganisms. aren't individual cells just an amorphous blob ?
02:50 < adlai|alphanum> then I recalled my 7th grade biology teacher giving us the opportunity to see live single-celled organisms in a drop of pond scum under a microscape.
02:51  * adlai|alphanum would by now, years of gullible reading and skeptical rereading later, not even be surprised to encounter reports of single-celled organisms with 'eyespots' that act upon the cytoskeleton.
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06:55 < kanzure> 'Survey also finds younger generations far more in favour of designer babies than older people are' no way
06:55 < kanzure> maybe that's possibly because young people make babies and not old people, but naaaah
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07:58 < muurkha> individual cells definitely are not just amorphous blobs
08:38 < kanzure> https://geti2p.net/en/docs/how/garlic-routing
08:44 < kanzure> why aren't crystal oscillators able to detect motion?
08:48 < muurkha> hm?
08:51 < kanzure> like if you shake a crystal oscillator hard enough
08:51 < kanzure> shouldn't its.. oscillation... be impacted?
08:52 < kanzure> i guess they might be entirely solid state
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09:07 < muurkha> watch crystals use tuning-fork geometry
09:11 < sknebel> crystal oscillators are acceleration-sensitive
09:13 < sknebel> and even just to orientation due to gravity, cf "2g tipover test"
09:31 < muurkha> how sensitive?
09:40 < kanzure> can you underclock a device by accelerating it?
09:40 < kanzure> physical acceleration i mean.
09:45 < muurkha> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Observed-frequency-change-corresponding-to-the-2-g-tip-over-test-conducted-for-each-axis_fig1_261174429 shows frequency deviations of up to 5 Hz from the 2-g tipover test
09:46 < muurkha> in an OCXO
09:48 < muurkha> which turns out to be 1.84 parts per billion per gee
09:48 < muurkha> others they measured were stabler than that
09:52 < muurkha> thermal deviations, which ovenized crystals normally don't experience, are about 100 times larger under normal conditions.  perhaps watch crystals would be more acceleration-sensitive
09:53 < muurkha> you also have aging
10:00 < muurkha> "Whereas a high-stability, ovenized 10-MHz VCXO may have a frequency adjustment range of ±5 × 10⁻⁷ and an aging rate of 2 × 10⁻⁸ per year, a wide-tuning-range 10-MHz VCXO may have a tuning range of ±50 parts per million (ppm) and an aging rate of 2 ppm per year."
10:02 < muurkha> so 4 parts per billion is about the drift you'd expect from about 18 hours of aging.  though that does settle down a bit after many years
10:02 < muurkha> (for the wide-tuning-range 10-MHz VCXO Vig is describing)
10:03 < kanzure> can we extract bits of data from that as a sidechannel?
10:06 < muurkha> possibly, GNSS signals could provide you with a stable enough timebase reference
10:08 < muurkha> also maybe the stress coefficients of watch crystals or ceramic resonators are a lot higher
10:08 < muurkha> but 4 ppb is 14 microseconds per hour
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10:27 < lkcl> MEMS might be what you're looking for... maybe
10:28 < lkcl> MEMS oscillators and MEMS motion sensors
10:29 < muurkha> right, MEMS accelerometers are designed to detect motion
10:30 < muurkha> this Vig paper on the subject (CECOM-TR-97-3) is pretty weird
10:30 < muurkha> on one hand it's talking about 1.5 GHz SAW filters and stuff
10:31 < muurkha> and MCXOs
10:31 < muurkha> on the middle hand it says things like "the input voltage for CMOS typically ranges from 5V to 15V" which hasn't been true since 01990
10:33 < muurkha> and on the extreme hand its figure 13 on p.15 of oscillator circuit types draws ground like a mechanical engineer's ground: a continuous line with diagonal hatching underneath it
10:33 < muurkha> which I don't think I've ever seen in schematics before, certainly not since the 01920s
10:34 < muurkha> (it does use current logic-gate symbols, though, which date from the 01950s)
10:34 < muurkha> is Vig a time traveler?  a visitor from an alternate timeline?
10:37 < kanzure> lkcl: yea i know there are specific devices that do this... but cpu clock consistency is important for security and influencing clock drift could be an interesting sidechannel.
10:40 < sknebel> There is some research to reidentify WLAN devices based on clock irregularities leaking into their WiFi signals
10:41 < kanzure> clock irregularity being a fingerprint of device type?
10:42 < sknebel> Even individual device, sometimes. I.e. you can't match every device again, but ones that are outliers at least. I can go check if I can find the reference again later
10:47 < sknebel> Ok, found one paper again, but wasn't just clock but also I/Q offset, which apparently is more hardware variation in the HF frontend https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~nibhaska/papers/sp22_paper.pdf
10:47 < sknebel> (is discussing BLE, vit mentions WiFi is easier)
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11:56 < fenn> the cognitive dissonance here is powerful
11:56 < fenn> .tw https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1539599082397659138/video/1
11:56 < saxo> Och, A cannae finde nae tweet
11:56 < fenn> .tw https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1539599082397659138
11:56 < saxo> New York City Mayor Eric Adams waved a checkered flag to start a bulldozing event, where 100 illegal dirt bikes and all-terrain vehicles, confiscated by the New York City Police Department, were crushed https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1539535307103936512/pl/WFPVECiA4_FcrLmk.m3u8?tag=14&container=fmp4 (@Reuters)
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11:58 < muurkha> what's the cognitive dissonance part?
11:58 < fenn> NYC is supposedly a leader in green policy making
11:58 < fenn> banning natural gas because of its climate change potential, etc
11:59 < fenn> so it's jarring to see hundreds of fuel efficient vehicles being destroyed "because they are illegal"
11:59 < fenn> "many of the bikes don't have insurance"
11:59 < muurkha> well, they're probably pretty heavily polluting locally even if they emit less CO₂
12:00 < muurkha> probably the people of NYC have many values, which can be conflicting, not just one
12:00 < fenn> also the level of spectacle is like something from Idiocracy
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16:16 < Llamamoe> Would it be possible to make a lithography setup by just taking a UV LCD from an SLA printer and running it through a series of lens?
16:17 < muurkha> isn't that what an SLA printer does, except without the lenses?
16:17 < Llamamoe> Yes
16:18 < Llamamoe> Just wrong scale for precise lithography 
16:18 < Llamamoe> Like etching micro- and nano-scale stuff
16:19 < Llamamoe> I mean a SLA printer already has like 50 micron resolution
16:19 < muurkha> oh, you're asking if you can do finer-scale lithography with a lens system?  yes, Sam Zeloof has published a couple of videos on his YouTube channel showing how he did that using an old DLP projector instead of an LCD
16:19 < muurkha> he bolted it onto a microscope
16:20 < muurkha> an LCD should work too, maybe be less compact?  lower/higher power?  definitely doable tho
16:20 < Llamamoe> muurkha: What kinda parameters does a DLP projector have?
16:20 < Llamamoe> Can you link me those vids? :0 
16:22 < muurkha> I think they usually emit more total light than an LCD SLA printer (pet peeve: people who think PLA and ABS aren't resins)
16:22 < muurkha> I don't have a link handy
16:22 < muurkha> .g zeloof youtube maskless stepper dlp projector microscope
16:22 < saxo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxz_ENnmgtI
16:22 < muurkha> .t
16:22 < saxo> Maskless Photolithography Stepper for Homemade Chips - YouTube
16:22 < muurkha> probably that one
16:23 < muurkha> more or less total light is largely a matter of exposure time
16:24 < fenn> reflective optics go to lower wavelengths than transmissive optics, and stuff like fused silica (UV optics) is expensive
16:25 < fenn> shorter wavelengths
16:25 < muurkha> Zeloof's microscope isn't made out of fused silica
16:26 < muurkha> but I think he's only down to 10 μm or something?
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17:01 < fenn> "It is a sign of civilizational inadequacy that this post exists at all, and you should think really hard and do your own research"
17:02 < fenn> hmm
17:02 < muurkha> ?
17:03 < Llamamoe> 10nm is crazy good tho 
17:04 < muurkha> not 10nm, 10μm
17:04 < muurkha> a million times bigger
17:04 < muurkha> (in area)
17:06 < Llamamoe> Oh, right, sorry 
17:06 < Llamamoe> Sleepy and it is time to sleep
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17:07 < fenn> sorry i don't know where "far UV" begins but it gets you less than an order of magnitude in feature size
17:23 < muurkha> 200nm or so?
17:23 < muurkha> .wik Far UV
17:23 < saxo> "Ultraviolet (UV) is a form of electromagnetic radiation with wavelength from 10 nm (with a corresponding frequency around 30 PHz) to 400 nm (750 THz), shorter than that of visible light, but longer than X-rays." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_UV
17:23 < muurkha> yeah, 122-200 nm
17:24 < muurkha> anything below 122 nm is EUV, air is opaque to it
17:25 < muurkha> WP says actually oxygen is opaque to far UV too but nitrogen isn't
17:25 < fenn> "You ought to be able to search something on Google and get an answer to your question without signing up for some newsletter. This is why I created 12ft.io.
17:25 < fenn> How does it work?
17:25 < fenn> The idea is pretty simple, news sites want Google to index their content so it shows up in search results. So they don't show a paywall to the Google crawler. All we do is show you that cached, unpaywalled version of the page."
17:31 < kanzure> bleep bloop
17:43 < L29Ah> fenn: i think that some sites learned how to turn off the google cache availability to users
17:44 < L29Ah> but you still can pop up with google crawler's UA as it's a little harder to whitelist google's IP addresses
17:46 < L29Ah> did anyone succeed parsing USDA's nutrients database? they changed their web stuff completely, and the JSON they offer you is horrible
17:46 < muurkha> don't they have a CSV?
17:46 < fenn> last i checked there was a CSV but to get the whole data set it's a little more complicated than that
17:48 < L29Ah> muurkha: they do but it is as horrible
17:48 < muurkha> I haven't tried their JSON
17:49 < muurkha> I snarfed their CSV at some point but I don't remember if I even imported it into Python or SQLite or gnumeric or anything
17:49 < L29Ah> it's like, you have to match IDs of foods, IDs of nutrients, maybe even IDs of units
17:49 < muurkha> probably?  it didn't seem too horrible but I didn't experiment extensively
17:49 < muurkha> that doesn't sound horrible at all, that sounds great
17:50 < muurkha> they're delivering you a database that's already in third normal form!
17:51 < L29Ah> :O
17:51 < muurkha> do you know how to write a join in SQL or in Django's ORM?
17:51 < L29Ah> couldn't they normalize numbers to grams or smth
17:51 < L29Ah> and use text instead of numeric ids since they're using a text format anyway
17:51 < muurkha> if this is not a skill you have you'll be amazed at how much easier it makes your life
17:51 < L29Ah> no i don't
17:51 < muurkha> oh, you are in for a huge treat
17:51 < L29Ah> i consider writing either sed or haskell to deal with it
17:51 < fenn> there is also a MS access database available to download
17:52 < fenn> which is 5x the size for some reason
17:52 < L29Ah> in the end i need a list of numbers
17:52 < muurkha> that's why matching IDs of foods seems hard to you, because you're thinking about doing it in sed or haskell
17:52 < muurkha> just do it in SQL, it'll be a hundred times easier and you'll have a new broadly applicable skill
17:52 < L29Ah> ok let's see
17:53 < muurkha> if you're trying to process the JSON you might try using jq, which might be even easier or might be harder
17:53 < muurkha> jq is kind of like sed for JSON
17:53 < L29Ah> i couldn't understand how to match by ids and reorder stuff with jq
17:53 < muurkha> yeah, that's not its strength
17:54 < muurkha> but it's very much SQL's strength
17:54 < muurkha> SQLite is probably the easiest thing to use.  though Access is, uh, accessible
17:55 < L29Ah> so are you suggesting creating and filling sqlite tables from the json files?
17:55 < muurkha> yes
17:55 < muurkha> no
17:55 < muurkha> from the CSV files
17:55 < L29Ah> ok
17:55 < muurkha> maybe the JSON files would be okay too, I don't know
17:56 < fenn> i looked and it's not really CSV, a typical line looks like this ~01004~^~3~^1^~cup, crumbled, not packed~^135^^
17:56 < muurkha> but SQL is not very JSON-shaped and so it's easy to express things in JSON that are a huge pain in the ass in SQL
17:56 < muurkha> weird, what does that mean?
17:56 < muurkha> URL?
17:56 < fenn> i don't see any schema document
17:57 < fenn> the ascii download from https://data.nal.usda.gov/dataset/usda-national-nutrient-database-standard-reference-legacy-release
17:57 < fenn> https://data.nal.usda.gov/system/files/SR-Leg_ASC.zip
17:57 < L29Ah> i got proper CSVs at https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-datasets/FoodData_Central_sr_legacy_food_csv_%202019-04-02.zip
17:57 < fenn> ty
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18:25 < muurkha> this file seems to omit the nutrient table?
18:25 < muurkha> it has food_nutrient.csv, which tells how much of each nutrient is contained, but it seems to omit the nutrient table, which tells you what the nutrient is called and which units it's measured in
18:30 < muurkha> NUTR_DEF.txt in https://data.nal.usda.gov/system/files/SR-Leg_ASC.zip seems to have this information but uses different IDs
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18:31 < muurkha> I think it's just Latin-1 CSV with ^ for comma and ~ for quotes
18:31 < muurkha> (i.e., byte 0xB5 seems to be μ)
18:32 < muurkha> are any of you finding the nutrient table in FoodData_Central_sr_legacy_food_csv_%202019-04-02.zip?
18:45 < L29Ah> muurkha: https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-datasets/FoodData_Central_Supporting_Data_csv_2021-10-28.zip
18:46 < L29Ah> or probably better https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-datasets/FoodData_Central_Supporting_Data_csv_%202019-04-02.zip
18:46 < muurkha> aha, thanks!
18:47 < muurkha> I think what I downloaded previously was FoodData_Central_foundation_food_csv_2019-12-17
18:48 < muurkha> have you been able to import the tables into SQLite3 yet?
18:49 < muurkha> the unit list contains some units that would be difficult to convert into grams
18:49 < muurkha> first there are the volume measures, which ought to be converted to milliliters
18:50 < muurkha> but then you have units like bar, bird, bottle, biscuit, box, can, fruit, drumstick, slice, each, and tortilla
18:54 < muurkha> kCal ("KCAL") or kJ of Energy would also be hard to convert to grams
18:54 < L29Ah> i don't care about energy
18:55 < L29Ah> and hopefully there are no funny units among the foods of interest
18:55 < muurkha> so too IU of vitamin A or D
18:55 < L29Ah> IUs are easy
18:56 < muurkha> the conversion factor to grams depends on the form in which the vitamin is present, which you don't always know
18:56 < L29Ah> i don't care of the form, i care about IUs, but i normalize everything to grams, so i'm using some reference form of vitamin
18:56 < muurkha> sounds sensible
18:58 < L29Ah> and energy is just energy of fats, protein and (carbs - fiber)
18:59 < muurkha> sure
18:59 < muurkha> there are interestingly two nutrients for "Carbohydrates", 1005 and 1050
19:01 < muurkha> but only 1005 seems to be used
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23:51 < fenn> has anyone gotten a full genome sequence recently? how much did it cost? what hoops did you have to jump through to get the raw data or even just an analysis?
23:51 < fenn> "In summer 2019 Veritas Genetics cut the cost for WGS to $599." does that sound about right?
--- Log closed Thu Jun 23 00:00:00 2022