--- Log opened Wed Feb 08 00:00:38 2023
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02:45 < nsh> 'BeTriton is a fully electric Recreational Vehicle and combines three functions – a hard-top motor boat, cargo tricycle and tiny camper that sleeps two people. This is a completely new 3 in 1 concept providing the most continuous and immersive outdoor travel experience.'
02:45 < nsh> - https://betriton.com/
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04:51 < kanzure> "DNA synthesis technologies to close the gene writing gap" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41570-022-00456-9 (2023 review)
05:15 < kanzure> why aren't air traffic control towers automated? with video cameras, infrared, night vision, ground radar, tripwires in the ground, and plane radios, you should be able to get accurate reads on where things are.
05:15 < kanzure> and, you can still use humans to augment the system and either review it in real-time or spot items that the system has missed
05:16 < L29Ah> kanzure: the saint regulations were made before air traffic control could be automated cheaply
05:16 < kanzure> you could also do simulations and project forward the motion and positions of different objects on the runway, could do some local compute capacity even
05:16 < L29Ah> so you need meatbags chatting over pathetic AM radio
05:16 < kanzure> oh this is because of regulation?
05:17 < kanzure> even with regulation you should still be able to add computer systems
05:19 < L29Ah> moreover these days decent airplanes broadcast their location and speed, among other things, every second or so
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05:19 < L29Ah> so you don't even need any stationary infra if everyone behaves
05:19 < kanzure> you wouldn't even need to trust the airplanes to be accurate- ground systems should be able to look and see
05:23 < kanzure> hopefully spacex is more automated- the humans counting down should be either for show or as backup/monitor/failsafe.
05:26 < muurkha> the humans presumably have at least an e-stop button
05:30 < kanzure> nice explosion animation of a photosystem protein complex https://twitter.com/gpintilie/status/1622772278172811267
05:32 < kanzure> "Generating novel, designable, and diverse protein structures by equivarently diffusing oriented residue clouds" https://arxiv.org/abs/2301.12485 https://twitter.com/alexechu_/status/1622724209230348290
05:33 < kanzure> "Structure-informed language models are protein designers" https://arxiv.org/abs/2302.01649 https://twitter.com/gklambauer/status/1622494205439365120
05:35 < kanzure> residue cloud protein diffusion https://github.com/aqlaboratory/genie
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09:05 < hprmbridge> kanzure> @eudoxia what about using george's cell-based interstellar probes as reflectors for large-scale telescopes https://twitter.com/ProfTomEllis/status/1623320408282787847
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09:29 < kanzure> "Open hardware: From DIY trend to global transformation in access to laboratory equipment" https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.3001931
09:30 < L29Ah> where is my laboratory equipment!?
09:31 < L29Ah> 0 entries of "nmr", "chroma" and "mass"
09:37 < kanzure> ... must be a more myopic lab :)
09:39 < lsneff> annoyed with spitter rn, very myopic
11:28 < kanzure> http://www.arrl.org/news/morse-code-at-140-wpm
11:41 < kanzure> "The cell as a collection of protein machines" https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(00)80922-8 regarding the densely packed cell cytoplasm 
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16:01 < Jay_Dugger> Hello, everyone.
16:47 < kanzure> "IVF now covered by Chinese national healthcare plan. Current PRC usage of IVF is ~1m cycles per year. This is going to go way up." https://twitter.com/hsu_steve/status/1623475304432820224
17:18 < Jay_Dugger> Hmm. We'll see. Any updates on the He Jiankui affair?
17:21 < kanzure> he's out of prison and has set his sights lower
17:21 < kanzure> "make people better" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19298844/
17:33 < kanzure> "Stromal inflammation is a targetable driver of hematopoietic aging" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.08.434485v1.abstract (from the anakinra anti-arthritis story floating around about young blood)
17:34 < fenn> china is going to have a demographic problem like japan currently does, if they don't push up birth rates quickly
17:34 < fenn> free IVF seems like the wrong lever to pull
17:35 < kanzure> well, that may be true, but pulling the lever can have other interesting downstream effects like maybe mass manufacturing of IVF equipment at huge scales
17:37 < kanzure> or increase funding for techniques that take somatic cells
17:51 < Jay_Dugger> Good point, kanzure. It occurred to me that "FREE IVF" won't necessarily motivate parents. The downstream effects hasn't come to mind.
17:54 < muurkha> free IVF will probably dramatically increase the number of https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geriatric_pregnancy
17:55 < muurkha> whether this dramatically increases the number of total children depends on how many other pregnancies there are at present
17:55 < Jay_Dugger> Maybe. I don't know enough old Chinese women to guess whether that number will be measureable.
17:56 < Jay_Dugger> We will know in a few years, if Chinese government statistics are trustworthy.
17:56 < muurkha> you don't have to be very old for your pregnancy to be "geriatric"
17:58 < Jay_Dugger> I don't know any Chinese women who live in China.
17:59 < Jay_Dugger> I'll defer to you on this point.
18:04 < muurkha> I only know one, and she isn't very representative.
18:06 < muurkha> So I don't have any special knowledge there.  But I think there are dynamics in many modern societies that strongly influence many young women to postpone childbearing, and it's plausible they operate in PRC in the same way, and postponed female childbearing results in much higher impacts for female fertility interventions.
18:17 < kanzure> somewhat older women can usually bear children as long as you implant someone else's egg, oldest was in her 70s so far for IVF i think?
18:19 < muurkha> nice
18:22 < fenn> the page on "geriatric pregnancy" (really? geriatric is over 40?) talks about birth defects due to chromosomal abnormality; i wonder how the rate compares for women undergoing IVF with frozen eggs or donated eggs/embryos
18:25 < fenn> also you'd want to control for the age of the sperm donor
18:27 < muurkha> good point
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18:31 < fenn> all those space marines in their power armor actually have achondroplasia; it's the only way to fit the arms and legs inside
18:32 < fenn> if you were wondering what sort of genetic enhancements are used by the imperium of man
18:54 < fenn> "The human mutation rate for base substitutions is much higher in males than in females and increases with paternal age. This effect is mainly, if not entirely, due to the large number of cell divisions in the male germ line. The mutation-rate increase is considerably greater than expected if the mutation rate were simply proportional to the number of cell divisions."
18:56 < kanzure> pretty cool that human uterus transplants work
18:57 < kanzure> ex vivo human uterus seems to be the most likely path for artificial wombs
18:57 < kanzure> although i think blastocyst complementation to make pigs grow a real human uterus is more likely to work first
18:58 < kanzure> i'm not really sure why human external organ survival timeline is only ~hours, shouldn't these things last quite a while if you perfuse them with blood and oxygenate and give nutrients?
18:58 < kanzure> (docl: why all the focus on organ cryopreservation, instead of linking them up to blood supplies and pumps?)
18:59 < fenn> are there lots of non-broken uteruses (uteri?) available?
18:59 < kanzure> usually in older women
18:59 < fenn> but aren't they removed for a reason usually, like fibroids or endometriosis
19:00 < fenn> maybe this is not actually a problem
19:00 < kanzure> well i figure the even healthy ones should be available in older age anyway
19:00 < kanzure> yeah i was trying to think about artificial wombs and i forgot why everyone wants them
19:00 < fenn> why would someone undergo surgery for no reason?
19:00 < kanzure> money
19:01 < kanzure> the best i can think of to support artificial wombs is relieving the suffering of women who would suffer under pregnancy
19:01 < kanzure> is there another major motivation for artificial wombs?
19:01 < fenn> making clone armies, duh
19:01 < kanzure> can't you do that with existing surrogacy tech?
19:02 < fenn> nah it means you have to get a bunch of people involved
19:02 < kanzure> ok, so like scheduling inefficiencies or something
19:02 < kanzure> and artificial wombs would presumably be more on-demand available
19:02 < fenn> political entanglements and "ethics" and secret keeping problems
19:03 < fenn> also lots of variability in gestational environment
19:03 < kanzure> dunno if that's a major problem in the existing surrogacy market
19:03 < fenn> the surrogacy market is not very deep
19:03 < kanzure> yeah, that's a fair one, plus you can minimize trust around maternal care routine standards
19:04 < kanzure> surrogacy seems like it could be much deeper-- "uber for embryos", you're having a child anyway why not add one more fetus and get your neonatal healthcare paid for by some stranger
19:05 < fenn> you mean "rideshare for embryos"?
19:05 < fenn> i'd bet that twins have more complications
19:05 < kanzure> ~a public uterine commons~
19:05 < fenn> let's all hold hands and sing the soviet national anthem
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19:06 < kanzure> i will not partake in this particular summoning ritual
19:06 < fenn> o/~ hurray, hurrah, off to the gulag we go o/~
19:06 < fenn> what did you mean "add one more fetus" then?
19:07 < kanzure> hm? yes i mean rideshare for embryos, piggyback on existing/scheduled pregnancies
19:08 < kanzure> From the depths of science and progress, / Comes a new solution to life's quest, / Embryo rideshare, a revolutionary way, / To bring new hope and joy to families each day.
19:08 < kanzure> Oh, embryo rideshare, the future has arrived, / With the power of technology, we thrive. / From the lab to the womb, we will deliver, / New life, new hope, now and forever!
19:08 < kanzure> A new generation born with love and care, / Thanks to embryo rideshare, a dream to share.
19:08 < fenn> https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/staying-healthy-during-pregnancy/complications-of-multiple-pregnancy
19:09 < fenn> you've gotta get off the GPT tit
19:09 < kanzure> Embryo rideshare, a symbol of hope, / A brighter future, a brighter slope. / With love and care, we will continue to grow, / Off to the future we go!
19:09  * fenn smacks the synthetic nipple out of kanzure's mouth
19:09 < kanzure> hmph
19:11 < fenn> breast ridesharing was routinely a thing through history, and would be needed for artificial womb babies
19:11 < kanzure> formula tho
19:12 < fenn> colostrum is critical for jump starting the immune system
19:12 < fenn> perhaps it can also be done with (farm animal) genetic engineering or blastocyst complementation
19:12 < kanzure> cows producing humanized milk?
19:13 < fenn> something like that
19:14 < fenn> infant formula, being a medical thing, has a lot of regulatory burden and therefore less innovation that ought to have happened by now, and therefore isn't very good
19:14 < kanzure> a lot of the artificial womb work and sci-fi seems to stop at artificial placentas or something, instead of just taking an entire human uterus
19:15 < fenn> the placenta grows on its own, you don't have to raise a human to get one
19:15 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_womb
19:15 < fenn> if you're sending an interstellar ship with minimal mass, you don't want to have to drag along a big heavy uterus
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19:15 < kanzure> yes but i would prefer something more imminently achievable
19:16 < kanzure> clearly what we want long-term is a monotremic human fetus that hatches on its own
19:16 < kanzure> but nobody knows how to do that right now
19:18 < fenn> i suppose it isn't the first time a human has felt jealous of birds
19:19 < fenn> why dont they use these ziploc lamb bag things for preterm human babies?
19:20 < fenn> oh, gay couples might want an artificial womb
19:20 < kanzure> lamb bag was only introduced a few years ago
19:21 < kanzure> (don't quote me) abortion limits are usually around 20-25 weeks, and pre-term survival rate starts increasing around 27 weeks
19:21 < kanzure> *legal abortion limits
19:21 < fenn> the lamb was only in the bag for 4 weeks
19:22 < kanzure> " 2015, about 1.3% of abortions in the United States took place after the 21st week,[4] and less than 1% occur after 24 weeks."
19:22 < fenn> a pregnancy is considered full term at 39 weeks
19:22 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterm_birth says 28 week minimum
19:23 < fenn> what's your point? pro-life advocates will use artificial wombs to bring otherwise unviable fetuses to term?
19:24 < kanzure> "The chance of survival at 22 weeks is about 6%, while at 23 weeks it is 26%, 24 weeks 55% and 25 weeks about 72%"
19:24 < kanzure> well, i was trying to think if there is a systemic reason why we might not have tried lamb bags
19:24 < kanzure> and one reason is that, after like 28 weeks, is that you usually just let the little guy fight for his own survival in the ICU
19:24 < fenn> 72% is pretty high, so why is 28 week "minimum"?
19:24 < kanzure> no idea, first i'm seeing this
19:25 < fenn> "just let the little guy fight for his own survival" sounds completely barbaric
19:25 < kanzure> isn't that what they do for preemies?
19:25 < fenn> our new adoption strategy is wolves
19:25 < fenn> if the wolves don't eat the baby, they'll raise it in a supportive and loving environment
19:25 < kanzure> would you prefer to be the first one to put their preemie baby in a lamb bag or would you rather try this 72% chance thing
19:26 < fenn> if the choice is lamb bag or nothing, i'd go with the lamb bag
19:26 < fenn> there might be some problem where the umbilical cord clots up
19:26 < fenn> iirc there's some valve mechanism or chemical reaction that cuts off the baby's blood supply immediately after taking a breath
19:27 < kanzure> maybe the set of circumstances where the lamb bag would be ideal is so limited that, of the cases where lamb bag would even be desired and "~medically necessary~", they aren't able to contact the lamb bag people in time because of the short timelines involved in pregnancy
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19:27 < fenn> we're going to have to recruit an obstetrician or midwife to ask dumb questions
19:27 < kanzure> (or at least the short timelines involved in pregnancies where at week 20 you are already thinking about lamb bags)
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19:28 < kanzure> consorting with subject matter experts? unacceptable
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19:29 < fenn> do whatever japan is doing and not whatever france is doing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Preterm_infants_survival_rates.svg
19:30 < kanzure> wtf that's a big baby gap
19:30 < fenn> what survival rate would be plausible for a woman to consider transferring the fetus to a lamb bag to reduce the burden
19:30 < fenn> in the early days it's not going to be 99%
19:34 < kanzure> anyway, for artificial wombs, you need the embryo to implant and grow the umbilical cord and such
19:34 < kanzure> fetuses can be harvested after ~22 weeks(apparently)
19:35 < kanzure> not sure how long embryos can delay implantation
19:36 < kanzure> "Embryonic diapause, the temporary suspension of development of the embryo, is a fascinating reproductive strategy that has been frequently exploited across the animal kingdom. It is characterized by an arrest in development that occurs at the blastocyst stage in over 130 species of mammals"
19:36 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryonic_diapause
19:36 < fenn> i'd guess that late term babies are usually a lot bigger, and that's why the risk of birth complications goes up. but if the baby is already outside the womb, why not let it cook a lot longer?
19:38 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interspecific_pregnancy
19:39 < kanzure> "For example, embryos of the species Spanish ibex are aborted when inserted alone into the womb of a goat, but when introduced together with a goat embryo, they may develop to term.[4] This technique has also been used to grow panda fetuses in a cat, but the cat mother died of pneumonia before she completed term"
19:39 < kanzure> they... tried to grow a panda fetus.. in a cat?
19:39 < fenn> that's really amazing
19:40 < kanzure> "Goat fetuses have likewise been successfully grown in sheep wombs by enveloping the goat inner cell mass in sheep trophoblast.[13]"
19:40 < kanzure> "Such envelopment can be created by first isolating the inner cell mass of blastocysts of the species to be reproduced by immunosurgery, wherein the blastocyst is exposed to antibodies toward that species. Because only the outer layer, that is, the trophoblastic cells, are exposed to the antibodies, only these cells will be destroyed by subsequent exposure to complement. The remaining inner ...
19:40 < fenn> i wonder if there's some universal surrogate animal
19:40 < kanzure> ...cell mass can be injected into a blastocele of the recipient species to acquire its trophoblastic cells.[14] It has been theorized that the allogeneic component prevents the production of maternal lymphocytes and cytotoxic anti-fetal antibodies, but the mechanism remains uncertain.[9]"
19:41 < kanzure> "This technique was used for the experiment of panda fetuses in a cat mentioned in techniques for overcoming rejection.[11] In this experiment, nuclei from cells taken from abdominal muscles of giant pandas were transferred to egg cells of rabbits and, in turn, transferred into the uterus of cat together with cat embryos."
19:42 < kanzure> what's most amazing is that anyone bothered to try at all
19:42 < kanzure> and that they weren't outcast from science
19:42 < fenn> there's a lot of money and desperation in panda conservation
19:42 < kanzure> "Interspecies implantation and mitochondria fate of panda-rabbit cloned embryos" https://academic.oup.com/biolreprod/article/67/2/637/2683734
19:44 < kanzure> 'interspecies nuclear transfer'
19:45 < kanzure> if you had a bunch of human embryos to test with, it might just be a numbers game
19:45 < kanzure> all you really need is implantation and development up to the point of a functional umbilical cord and placenta i think?
19:46 < kanzure> i wonder if you could even get that from a single animal (regularly rotate in new embryos and take out implanted embryos that grew enough)
19:46 < kanzure> er, fetuses
19:49 < kanzure> did the sheep trophoblast method just not work out for other species or did they stop trying that?
19:49 < fenn> is the idea to put an embryo in a rabbit and then a ziploc bag when it gets too big?
19:49 < kanzure> yes
19:49 < kanzure> well not because of the size, i was thinking the survivability would be low anyway before size became an issue
19:50 < fenn> size matters
19:50 < kanzure> "Production of sheep-goat chimeras by inner cell mass transplantation" https://academic.oup.com/jas/article-abstract/65/1/325/4662393 (1987)
19:51 < kanzure> huh high survival rate of this technique
19:51 < kanzure> "CRISPR/Cas9 microinjection in oocytes disables pancreas development in sheep" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17805-0
19:52 < kanzure> mat-rouse chimeras implanted into mouse uterus https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012160617300167
19:52 < kanzure> ok well the chimera fetus stuff is less interesting
19:52 < fenn> i understand the results to mean that most of the goat embryos died when grown in a sheep (one survived)
19:53 < fenn> a kid is a baby goat, a lamb is a baby sheep, an ewe is a female sheep
19:54 < fenn> mixing everything together is a dumb way to do a control group if you ask me
20:12 < fenn> wow wtf
20:12 < fenn> "Pregnant women or those who have recently given birth in the U.S. are more likely to be murdered than to die from obstetric causes. These homicides are a combination of intimate partner violence and firearms."
20:13 < fenn> progress?!
20:15 < fenn> "The risk of homicide was 35% greater for pregnant and postpartum women than for their nonpregnant, nonpostpartum counterparts"
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21:58 < fenn> someone was asking if electrodynamic space tethers had been demonstrated. "TEPCE, the Naval Research Lab orbital maneuvering satellite with EDDE components, was successfully deployed on November 16 2019, and successfully performed orbit transfer maneuvers using electrodynamic thrust.  The performance is higher than expected for the limited solar power"
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