--- Log opened Fri Aug 18 00:00:32 2023
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05:55 < kanzure> hmph
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07:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I think the sources were on the order of 10^6 or 10^7 neutrons per second
08:10 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Forwarding a question I was given: is there an established name for a set of fusion reactors tied together to artificially make specific elements
08:11 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Like it's not economical until you've got self sus fusion but it's a concept you'd think would have a standard name
08:53 < L29Ah> it's economical when you need these elements badly like some specific radioisotopes for medicine
08:54 < L29Ah> given you can't just agree to have your stuff shoved into a RBMK stick or such
08:54 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> True, however usually when synthesizing specific isotopes you can start with the base element and just use a simple neutron source
08:55 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Sometimes I wish we had a good way to steer neutrons around
08:55 < L29Ah> there aren't simple neutron sources, they are all annoying and the best ones are regulated into oblivion
09:00 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> okay "simple", if energy isn't a worry a p-p fusion reactor should work eventually or maybe something like a light-ion accelerator with a block of beryllium
09:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> hmnm I would go the ion accelerator with beryllium target route iwy because you'd get a more focused beam of neutrons instead of omnidirectional radiation
09:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> "focused"
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09:40 < superkuh> The simplest neutron source are from pyroelectric linear accelerators sending deuterons residuals in vacuum at deuterated targets. A few magnitudes below the aforementioned in output so not useful for making lots of isotopes, but still observable with a bubble detector.
09:42 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah but deuterium costs a bit and is regulated in europe iirc
09:43 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> and america as well I suspect, i'm not sure with the USA. The US either is massively over regulated or not at all from what I can tell
10:18 < redlegion> Since the FDA is now certifying industrial CAD software that touches biomed implants, I'd say that's a pretty fair statement.
10:18 < redlegion> https://pages.zeiss.com/rs/896-XMS-794/images/ZEISS%20Guides%20Manufacturers%20to%20FDA%20Validation%20of%20CMMs_2022.pdf
10:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I disagree with the FDA but I kinda believe that any code that goes anywhere near life-critical systems should be formally verified
10:21 < redlegion> I could be wrong, but I'd think that biological compatibility would be a little more critical than a thousandth of an inch or two, at least when it comes to an artificial knee.
10:22 < hprmbridge> nyxtelius> formal verification is not a silver bullet
10:24 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> True but the whole manufacturing chain for critical systems should be safe, however a CNC can be checked after the fact.
10:24 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah`formal verification isn't a silver bullet but when done well and combined with other standard practices it can massively reduce risk.
10:24 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Reminds me of an old story a mentor I had for a few weeks told me, he worked on a flight control or associated radar system which they put the effort in to formally verify. The best part is they sold the system with a warranty and a 24/7 maintenance call out, which in the end was never exercised.
10:28 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It's no silver bullet but when your code fucking up can cost lives formally verifying it should be standard, fuzzing and test suites shouldn't be the only tools used,
10:29 < muurkha> superkuh: why is pyroelectricity favored as a source of the field?
10:29 < superkuh> The context was "there aren't simple neutron sources".
10:30 < superkuh> Having an external high voltage power supply is more complexity.
10:30 < muurkha> aha, I see
10:30 < muurkha> thanks
10:30 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> But who doesn't like tearing apart microwaves
10:30 < superkuh> That only gets you high current at ~4kv.
10:31 < superkuh> But yes, I love microwaves. I have a bin full of about 20 magnetrons and associated parts.
10:31 < muurkha> alonzoc: the code not existing also costs lives
10:31 < muurkha> or existing but not being allowed to be used
10:32 < superkuh> Getting a few mA at 250kv is much harder.
10:32 < muurkha> also a lot more dangerous
10:32 < muurkha> which is saying a lot considering that a MOT is the starting point of the comparison
10:33  * superkuh nods.
10:35 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> True, but usually software people rely on that unexpectedly breaks has large long tail effects relative to software that doesn't exist that no one expects to work.
10:35 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Developing software in a professional manner with rigorous testing and verification is more expensive overall but in the long run can stop your company being sued.
10:35 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Like I don't think all software should be formally verified, I don't verify my emacs config or computer games, but there are cases where verification is prudent. It's also not an all or nothing choice, you could formally verify the safety critical core while ignoring the UI or other auxilary components that aren't gonna be a problem if they fail
10:37 < muurkha> alonzoc: all of that is true, although keep in mind the UI is what failed in the Therac-25 case
10:38 < muurkha> the difference between "can stop your company from being sued/fined/shut down" and "is beneficial to society on net" is what we're discussing here
10:38 < muurkha> as I understand it
10:40 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Oh yeah, UI isn't unimportant what degree of testing each component and each integration needs is something that varies from project to project.
10:40 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> An automated trading algorithms core execution and risk management you should formally verify if you are playing with peoples pensions or a lot of your own money, the display dashboards however are less critical and can break so long as there is a manual route to read the data
10:40 < muurkha> not sure if you've worked in automated trading
10:41 < muurkha> but my fairly limited experience there is that development speed there is pretty critical
10:41 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> well being sued is a reason which might motivate a company to be safe, the side-effect is that their surgical robot doesn't kill people. so legal arse covering and social needs are aligned
10:41 < muurkha> partly aligned
10:42 < muurkha> if it motivates the company to bring the surgical robot out later or not at all, legal arse covering is in conflict with social needs
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10:42 < muurkha> until the marginal number of people killed compensates for the marginal number of people not saved
10:42 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> i've done personal trading and have a few friends in that world
10:42 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Speed is critical for some algorithms yes, and for execution algorithms defo, but you can formally verify C code. So there isn't necessarily a performance v safety tradeoff. The tradeoff is more safety vs cost
10:43 < Jay_Dugger> Hello, everyone.
10:43 < muurkha> I didn't say execution speed, which is also important, but development speed
10:43 < muurkha> if each of your new algorithms comes to market a week later, you will be spending people's pensions rather than growing them
10:44 < muurkha> in many cases
10:44 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Oh I agree, however you've also got to consider the fact that if you kill 2-3 people but save 100 with a robot you build the PR and regulatory backlash would prevent you from saving more lives. So there is an aspect that loosing even a few patients could cause you to lose many more people in a utilitarian calculation
10:45 < muurkha> I would say the PR and regulatory structure that gives rise to that backlash is the problem to solve
10:46 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> oh sorry, yeah that's true was well however is dependent on the specific niche. However something like a basic order-execution algorithm or risk management module would be fairly stable relative to something like your current market model which you'd likely be continuously updating to stay up to date
10:46 < muurkha> oh, sure
10:46 < muurkha> agreed
10:46 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> and the stability of your execution and risk management would be very stable if you are someone like a fund
10:47 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> worst one i've seen is a friend of mine basically plugged a SNN directly into a market it's worked so far apparently but I worry
10:47 < muurkha> well, in theory.  the guy I was working with was from Knight
10:47 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> o/ welcome
10:49 < muurkha> Jay_Dugger has been around for a while
10:49 < muurkha> let's welcome alonzoc, Jay_Dugger!  he is pretty cool
10:51 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Also thanks for that I was trying to remember the name of that case as it slipped my midn
10:59 < Jay_Dugger> Thank you.
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14:30 < L29Ah> pretty sure i got under 250kV @ few mA (spark gap tesla coil output with ~50cm-long sparks), and it's nothing compared to MOT output
14:30 < L29Ah> *myself
14:31 < superkuh> Tesla coil spark length is not proportional to voltage. The plasma channel remains and is extended with every bang.
14:31 < superkuh> Tesla coil voltage of 250kV is achievable, but it'd be pretty darn big and high power and exceptional.
14:32 < superkuh> Plus, how do you rectify it for a linear accelerator? But I guess that just engineering.
14:32 < L29Ah> pretty sure the plasma channel has plenty of time to dissipate @1Hz
14:32 < superkuh> It's pretty common knowledge.
14:33 < superkuh> I've seen many slow motion videos showing it.
14:33 < superkuh> Even the bang itself is AC, of course, so it's going on and off at your resonant freq/2.
14:37 < superkuh> I mean, well, it's proportional to voltage. But not the normal scaling of 1kv/mm.
14:43 < L29Ah> still i don't think voltage matters at all beyond few kV when considering its hazards for a human, as one can be treated as a conductor (every electric barrier one has just breaks down), and we can consider only the current messing with whatever ion machinery in its path
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15:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://oppenheimerproject.org/
16:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Okay that's weird, I was getting myself a copy of nanoengineer of github and it's kanzure lol
16:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer
16:19 < muurkha> what's weird about that?
16:20 < muurkha> L29Ah: voltage matters enormously beyond a few kV when considering its hazards for a human
16:20 < muurkha> for two different reasons
16:21 < superkuh> I've always wondered about the "penning trap" on the mars curiosity rover that they used for neutron generation, https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/spacecraft/instruments/dan/
16:22 < superkuh> Penning traps do not normally cause fusion. But that's the only semi-detailed description I've found.
16:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It's just odd to recognize someone I talk to, with their name on an archive github project
16:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> i'm interested how you found a copy to put on github
16:23 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I spent a while looking for a copy
16:23 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Well, I heard they were shutting down. I called the founder of Nanorex and offered to open source it. He said yes.
16:23 < hprmbridge> kanzure> this was a long time ago
16:23 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> kinda sad molecular nanotech stuff died a death
16:23 < hprmbridge> kanzure> @alonzoc let me know if you want an intro to the team building atomCAD and doing atomically precise manufacturing
16:24 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> hopefully as we approach the needed precision for scanning microscopes we can actually bootstrap
16:24 < hprmbridge> kanzure> It's not really dead. There are startups in this area.
16:24 < muurkha> 1. wattage.  a 5mA current at 2kV is 10W, enough to cause serious skin burns quickly if it's short, but no real damage if the 2kV is all across your body.  by contrast, at 2MV, it's 10kW, which will cook you in a few seconds even if evenly distributed, but in practice it will be concentrated on a narrow discharge path through your body, which will be more like a bullet wound
16:24 < hprmbridge> kanzure> we are past the needed precision
16:24 < hprmbridge> kanzure> subangstrom precision is already a thing for AFMs
16:25 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I'd like to see someone make the minimal toolset for mechanosynthesis
16:25 < muurkha> 2. Safety.  Shoe soles or rubber gloves can protect you from 2kV or 10kV. 2MV can arc over much, much longer distances.
16:25 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> like some startup is probably working on it but publically I've heard very little
16:25 < hprmbridge> kanzure> the minimal toolset is no longer the approach ralph is working on
16:25 < hprmbridge> kanzure> @mechadense could you link your wiki
16:26 < muurkha> L29Ah: my father arrived at work one day to find that a coworker on the previous shift had been killed by the ion implantation machine
16:26 < hprmbridge> kanzure> http://apm.bplaced.net/w/index.php?title=Main_Page
16:26 < muurkha> 's power supply
16:26 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> ?
16:26 < muurkha> L29Ah: IIRC it was something like 20kV at 2mA.  The discharge through his body burned a hole in his heart.  2kV doesn't do that
16:27 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ehh someone else like mechadense can say with more detail
16:28 < muurkha> (all of the above pertains to dc only)
16:30 < hprmbridge> kanzure> maybe best to read that wiki by recent changes first http://apm.bplaced.net/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges
17:20 < fenn> Oppenheimer said: “If you are a scientist you believe that it is good to find out how the world works; that it is good to find out what the realities are; that it is good to turn over to mankind at large the greatest possible power to control the world and to deal with it according to its lights and its values.”
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17:23 < L29Ah> muurkha: how do you think it works if P = IR
17:23 < L29Ah> I*R
17:24 < L29Ah> I*I*R
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20:19 < muurkha> L29Ah: the current rises as high as is required to produce the necessary voltage drop unless it exceeds the current-sourcing capability of your power source
20:20 < muurkha> which, in situations where it's arcing through a person, it usually does
20:22 < muurkha> in those cases, you don't know R (because it varies quite rapidly as solid flesh becomes plasma, which then changes temperature and thus charge mobility)
20:22 < muurkha> but you do know roughly the maximum V and I that your power source can output, so a more useful relation is P = VI
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22:26 < fenn> https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5ea9a604a66a7a5f5b9a79fa/1623116639408-AH165H7GR5RUS9BO8QQ9/EJRD1ETVAAAjVhv.jpeg
22:27 < fenn> 1- Lay with your face and palms on the ground.
22:27 < fenn> 2- Imagine that the ground is everything. This whole shitty world with its unjust pain and infuriating contradictions.
22:27 < fenn> 3- Say no to it. You don’t always have to say yes. Reject the world, just for a moment.
22:28 < fenn> 4- Push it away. Physically move the whole fucking planet away from your body.
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--- Log closed Sat Aug 19 00:00:33 2023