--- Log opened Fri Nov 03 00:00:14 2023
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03:33 < nsh> Render markdown on the CLI, with pizzazz! - https://github.com/charmbracelet/glow
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09:21 < jrayhawk> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37903260/ "photons in the visible spectrum can cleave water clusters off surfaces due to large electrical field gradients and quadrupole force on molecular clusters" "evaporation rates are wavelength dependent, peaking at 520 nm"
09:22 < jrayhawk> https://www.atophort.com/files/News/2023/202302/the-light-absorbance-and-wavelength.jpg
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11:35 < docl> how implausible is it to cause the immune system to mine bitcoin? not necessarily in the form of a virus
11:36 < docl> https://twitter.com/ESYudkowsky/status/1720273230609707376
11:36 < docl> .tw
11:36 < hprmbridge> nyxtelius> Sounds extremely difficult
11:37 < hprmbridge> nyxtelius> Unless he means literally growing computers in the nervous system somehow
11:37 < docl> .m https://twitter.com/ESYudkowsky/status/1720273230609707376
11:37 < AugustaAva> ​twitter.com <no title>
11:38 < docl> no, the idea would be using the immune system as the computer. like exploit the pattern matching the body uses to make antobodies when it detects an antigen
11:38 < docl> "Among the dangers of AI is that LLMs dual-trained on code and biology could enable computer viruses to jump to DNA substrate.  Imagine getting a cold that compromises your immune system and makes it start mining Bitcoin"
11:39  * docl kicks the bot in a futile attempt at percussive maintenance
11:40 < docl> he's joking of course, but hmm
11:42 < docl> dna computing is probably a more productive direction though
11:43 < L29Ah> nanotube computing
11:45 < jrayhawk> not to worry, some pharma company will use DRM to protect my enzymatic infrastructure from executing unauthorized nucleic acid just like Apple uses DRM to prevent my phone from executing unauthorized code.
11:45 < jrayhawk> problem solved
11:45 < docl> yeah there's a fair chance someone will make a mint selling immunity-as-a-service
11:52 < docl> .wik Immunocomputing
11:53 < EmmyNoether> "Immunocomputing explores the principles of information processing that proteins and immune networks utilize in order to solve specific complex problems while protected from viruses, noise, errors and intrusions. /  The main difference with other kinds of computing lay on the [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunocomputing
11:54 < jrayhawk> fenn: can you add a MAILTO to your crontab
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12:59 < L29Ah> so apparently most of people dying in USA die out of insufficient blood supply to myocardium
13:00 < L29Ah> so to save most people one doesn't even need to make the mere 2W blood pump; a device that compresses the disabled heart periodically to perform the pumping would suffice
13:20 < docl> I wonder if red blood cells would work well as construction material for in vivo chemlabs. You could maybe inflate them into spheres, remove the contents, and remodel the interior. the exterior would still appear the same as far as the immune system is concerned, right?
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13:36 < docl> .ty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8cI6FkcG4c
13:36 < docl> .yt
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14:03 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Not sure I wanna see the code for a TCP/IP stack that runs on my immune system
14:04 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Nah just repurpose people's eyes
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14:11 < docl> eyes could make sense for a BCI to deliver imagery to the brain maybe, but they're hardly the sort of cheap disposable thing you'd want to run experiments on
14:11 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Well you get one practice shot
14:12 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Who needs vision in stereo anyway
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14:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Hijacking the optical nerve is quite an attractive approach, decent bit of writable bandwidth there going straight to the optical cortex
14:18 < docl> depends what you want it for I guess. I'm going for milimeter scale synthetic organs you can use experimentally and remove without complications
14:18  * L29Ah suggests working with a single-ocular head mounted display first
14:19 < L29Ah> much cheaper and much less biocompatibility issues
14:23 < docl> I mean eyewires are cool and all I'm just thinking about in vivo chemical factories
14:27 < docl> uh, I guess they aren't called that anymore thanks to sebastian seung
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14:52 < kanzure> "Sana Zakaria et al, Machine Learning and gene editing at the helm of societal evolution"
15:28 < docl> .title https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2014/SC/C4SC01636J
15:28 < EmmyNoether> Oxygen chemisorption/desorption in a reversible single-crystal-to-single-crystal transformation - Chemical Science (RSC Publishing)
15:29 < docl> since I'm thinking about RBC modification, maybe just replace the hemoglobin with nanocrystals of this stuff
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17:04 < docl> "
17:04 < docl> A bucket full (10 litres) of the material is enough to suck up all the oxygen in a room."
17:04 < docl> .title https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140930113254.htm
17:04 < EmmyNoether> New material steals oxygen from air | ScienceDaily
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17:05 < docl> I'm pretty sure that means replacing hemoglobin in 10% of RBCs lets you hold your breath for hours and breathe through your skin
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17:13 < docl> typical human contains 5.5 kg of hemoglobin which has a density of 1.335 so figure about 4L. a room is over a day's worth of oxygen consumption. maybe there's additional complexity needed to avoid needing to heat it? you have a lot of surface area in this context though
17:17 < L29Ah> > typical human contains 5.5 kg of hemoglobin
17:17 < L29Ah> [citation needed]
17:26 < docl> whups, google lied to me. that's more the total mass of blood
17:33 < docl> 1 kg or 750mL, not quite as big of a difference as I thought
17:33 < docl> https://www.livescience.com/32213-how-much-blood-is-in-the-human-body.html
17:55 < docl> huh, the paper states its affinity is equal to myoglobin. can we just make RBCs with myoglobin instead of hemoglobin, I wonder? the high affinity would be the issue (same with the crystal, I suspect).
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18:24 < docl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv-KExGKAYw explainer for hemoglobin and myoglobin
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19:52 < fenn> yud's bitcoin mining immune system lost a lot of respect points from me
19:52 < fenn> 1) it is physically possible to construct protein based nanocomputers
19:53 < fenn> 2) he assumes everyone understands that it's humor, unlike the other insane scenarios he regularly discusses, and acts like you're the problem
19:53 < fenn> 3) it's exactly the same sort of thing he would doom about normally
19:54 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah it's a case where a dumb joke is close enough to his normal arguments for most peoples knowledge that it just confuses the issue and annoys people
19:57 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> In general Yud tweets just tarnish AI safety more, it's already a field that has issues with respectability (admittedly that's been improving recently as the "fearmongering" counter-argument looses steam)
20:00 < fenn> immune system updates downloaded optically from the internet is a large part of why i'm interested in enzymatic DNA synthesis
20:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Immune system reprogramming is defenitely close to the top of my bio subjects of interest list
20:04 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> However I start reading about the immune system seriously and my head starts spinning, neuro science I get it but immunology is something
20:05 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Immunomics is cool though
20:37 < L29Ah> spinning++
20:37  * L29Ah wishes for immunology representation as a dozen of graphs with all them cells and signalling molecules for starters
20:39 < L29Ah> although probably all this information isn't crucial for sending antibody structures around
20:43 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Oh yeah it's all crucial which is what makes it worse, sadly the human genome didn't come with comment or even a helpful symbol table
20:44 < L29Ah> antibodies don't have much to do with genome, people routinely use xenogenic ones even
20:45 < L29Ah> and i doubt studying the immune system itself would help much in designing antibodies with fewer off-target effects
20:46 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> point but the overall "script" the immune system runs is encoded directly and indirectly in ones genetics. crucial-ness is relative but the issue with biological systems is 1) interconnectedness and 2) homeostasis. pushing on one part for prolonged periods of time tends to lead to side-effects
20:47 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Designing antibodies is prolly easy enough
20:47 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> not to much complexity to worry about downloading the latest COVID-43 patch
20:47 < L29Ah> it all starts to get much more involved with allergies and autoimmune diseases
20:48 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I'm more interested in the problems of reversing acquired immune diseases
20:48 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> something in the immune system goes weird and a cascade of errors happens which can be self-reinforcing
20:50 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> it's why something like TAK-101 is cool but unlikely to be a permenant cure all
20:50 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33722583/
20:52 < L29Ah> > TAK-101 reduced changes in circulating α4β7+CD4+ (0.26 vs 1.05, P = .032), αEβ7+CD8+ (0.69 vs 3.64, P = .003), and γδ (0.15 vs 1.59, P = .010) effector memory T cells.
20:52 < L29Ah> my favorite part of immunology is naming
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20:53 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah... I remember being lectured once about variable naming when I first learnt to code. Biologists never got that leson
20:53 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> *lesson
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20:57 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> there is also some good work on epigenetic reprogramming in relation to the immune system i'm supprised epigentics isn't a big science buzzword yet
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21:52 < docl> what do you think of the idea of replacing the contents of cells and lining the inner walls with stuff to make them work as reaction chambers? I'm picturing like a cubic lattice of former red blood cells emptied out and stiffened (maybe use a fixative as part of the process), with silica or fluoroplastic liners and digitally controlled gates between each of the 6 adjoining spheres
21:54 < docl> er, you'd inflate before stiffening to make the spheres
21:55 < docl> so they'd be more indifferent to concentrations and more tolerant of pH differences (so you can dissolve waste products, etc.)
21:55 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Makes sense as a way to keep engineering away from the immune system. also means your little blobs of engineered biochemistry would be circulating around the body
21:56 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Hmm I wonder if any pathogens try to masqurade as red blood cells.
21:56 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> quick search yields https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6951797/#:~:text=PMID%3A%2031801066-,Group%20A%20Streptococcal%20S%20Protein%20Utilizes%20Red%20Blood%20Cells%20as,Critical%20Determinant%20for%20Immune%20Evasion
21:57 < docl> I was thinking of stashing the complex in say a lymph node, as it would be too big to move through capillaries. respirocytes would circulate though (that's the other thing I've been thinking about today)
21:57 < L29Ah> can't do much against NK cells
21:58 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I assume the body has systems in place to handle out of place red blood cells
22:00 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I know there are macrophages that specalise in recycling red blood cells but i'm not sure how mobile they are
22:00 < docl> there was a cobalt organometallic crystal the press was calling the aquaman crystal a few years back, 16x more dense than hemoglobin/myoglobin by mass in terms of oxygen storage (not sure how much more efficient by volume). you could repurpose RBCs as containers for chunks of the crystal maybe. regulating O2 level would be the trick though I think
22:02 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> better O2 storage that'd be a good modification, maybe along with some reprogramming of the breathing reflex and you've got yourself improved diving
22:02 < docl> it would be a huge life saver if you have lung or heart issues
22:04 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> heart issues might be more complex but I guess if you had O2 stashes scattered throughout the body
22:05 < docl> replacing the myoglobin in the heart would buy it time. that sounds more complicated than RBCs though
22:06 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Gonna need to start eating cobalt rich foods if you did such a modification
22:06 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> spinach and fish dinner ig
22:06 < docl> well RBCs could just be injected, doesn't have to be a genemod
22:08 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Point, but there is something to be said for persistence and having the body handle the whole recycling and  maintenance issues
22:08 < docl> ah, but the factory complex idea could maybe do that for you without changing anything much else about the body
22:09 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I wonder if theres a reason the body doesn't use some cobalt complex for oxygen storage already maybe in ocean dwelling mammals
22:09 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I know there are biological cobalt complexes in use
22:09 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah B12 is one
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22:10 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Metalloproteins are neat
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22:11 < docl> well the regulation mechanism for O2 release like hemoglobin has with 2,3-Bisphosphoglycerate might be hard to evolve or something
22:11 < docl> there's no mechanism like that for myoglobin if I understand correctly
22:12 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Okay i'm now going down a rabbit hole of coboglobin and co
22:15 < docl> .wik Hemocyanin 
22:15 < EmmyNoether> "Hemocyanins (also spelled haemocyanins and abbreviated Hc) are  proteins that transport oxygen throughout the bodies of some invertebrate animals." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemocyanin
22:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> literal blue blood
22:17 < docl> .wik Coboglobin
22:17 < EmmyNoether> "A coboglobin is a synthetic compound, a metalloprotein chemically similar to hemoglobin or myoglobin but using the metal cobalt instead of iron (hence the name)." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coboglobin
22:18 < docl> did they just modify hemoglobin and myoglobin to use cobalt in place of iron?
22:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> seems like it original paper is at 10.1073/pnas.67.2.637
22:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> ```Considering the effect of the metal atom on the protein, we find that metal,
22:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> substitution can leave a functional protein with strong oxygen affinity. Further,
22:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> the cooperativity appears to be largely unaffected (n 2.3) by the change.
22:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Thus the mechanism of cooperative oxygen uptake is apparently to some extent
22:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> independent of metal atom:``` yeah they just substituted the metal
22:20 < docl> interesting, I didn't realize you could do that lol
22:20 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> And who doesn't want amber yaellow blood
22:20 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> *yellow
22:22 < docl> here's the cobalt aquaman crystal paper https://sci-hub.se/10.1039/C4SC01636J
22:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> huh apparently at the temprature and pressure range we exist at hemoglobin is most efficient
22:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> makes sense, oxygen transport is the type of thing to be highly optimised
22:23 < docl> I read high altitude adaptations can make it more efficient. elsewhere I read the 2,3-Bisphosphoglycerate level is higher for high altitude adaptations, but maybe it's both
22:25 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> high alititude adaptations are really interesting a lot I read seemed just better in general iirc, I guess it's what happens if you add a really strong selection pressure on a group
22:25 < docl> anyway I'd happily consume a few more calories to get to hold my breath longer and maybe breathe through my skin if my lungs aren't available
22:27 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Defenitely, tbh if you're going along these lines something like an internal mechanism to reduce CO2 to base carbon and oxygen might make sense if you have some other source of chemical power you can stash
22:30 < docl> or mechanical, like drexler's nanomotor flywheels...
22:31 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I prefer not to have large built up amounts of rotational energy inside my body, inertia could be... *funny*
22:32 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> actually scratch that. I totally want my body to have nanomechanical flywheels throughout
22:32 < docl> rofl
22:32 < docl> I just want it to be very safe. but also very powerful
22:33 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> could be useful while skydiving or other such activities
22:33 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> balancing would be greatly improved
22:33 < docl> hmm, you could use it to reorient yourself. maybe stick them in your bones
22:33 < docl> perfect balance, all the time
22:33 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> What is your superpower? my bones are filled with flywheels
22:42 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://nitter.net/paulbohm/status/1720459925564842105 God I love this tweet (response to the Yud stuff earlier)
22:43 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah humanity is protected by the fact that the people who could cause large scale death and destruction are (a) invested in that not happening (I like civilisation mostly) and (b) not insane
22:47 < docl> yeah but sometimes I wonder if it's just that the insane people don't have the skills to pull it off
22:50 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> well, it depends on the type of insanity, a competent person who develops a serious mental illness may lose their faculties. But I guess there is also the fact not much is to be gained by doing such a thing.
22:50 < docl> otoh we have a stratosphere still, and it's not that hard to come up with a way to destroy that for a few million dollars
22:51 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> When incentives exist to make bioterrorism useful I think we have an issue. For example if targetability becomes easily doable then I bet all sorts of fringe groups might form around racially targeted bioweapons
22:51 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> ideologically motivated insanity is what we need to worry about not individuals I don't think
22:52 < docl> or deliberately melting the icecaps or something like that even. like we're more or less united as a species to not cause global warming *on purpose* because hey we live here, it's where we keep our stuff
22:53 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> allowing a state of afairs to continue due to short term incentives and inertia  is a bit different
22:53 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> *affairs
23:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> But I think it's a set of things (1) the population able to do these things is small to begin with and we forget this as we interact with people in similar fields (2) the percentage of individuals likely to cause irrational harm amongst that group is smaller still  (3a) an ideologically motivated person will likely find a group and the group will want to act in a sane way with respect to its goals
23:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> thus not killing everyone (3b) a lone individual who has mental issues that could cause this are likely to have issues due to lack of resources or the mental issues hindering their ability to work and (4) in the cases where nothing is stopped before any of that a security agency is likely to have been alerted due to someone's opsec failures. So I think it's mostly a law of large numbers situation
23:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> keeping us from all dying and that amassing resources and putting them into operation for many projects would be sufficiently noisy
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23:15 < docl> I wonder if protective nanotech (absorb nuke blasts, filter contaminants out of the atmosphere) will scale quickly enough to make the threats of nanotech a nonissue, or if we'll spend decades worrying about them
23:17 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Grey goo isn't much of an actual issue due to the energetics, even if the whole grey goo gather-consume-replicate cycle is exothermic you have an issue with heat dissipation and operating temperature ranges. Which means goo will end up growing quadratically not exponentially as rate of growth would be asymptotically bounded by the surface area of the convex hull of the mass
23:18 < docl> but they have very small surface area. can't they just ride around the world in cloud droplets?
23:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> If you're scenario is the whole world gets consumed you endup with a big mass at some point
23:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> The whole mass of bots would endup producing enough waste heat to cook or slow them down
23:20 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Replication then becomes bounded by heat dissipation
23:21 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> If the bots make dissipation infrastructure like cooling towers you have something to attack, if they don't they hobble their replication speed
23:21 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Not sure how you'd go about taking a nuke to the face and walk away. Would be interesting tho, always worth being able to survive nuclear blasts
23:23 < docl> maybe not to the face, but perhaps limiting the blast to a few city blocks or something like that with a bunch of layers of kinetic and radient energy absorbing devices
23:23 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Ahh using utility fog as a barrier
23:23 < docl> since we can store that kind of energy in the flywheels
23:23 < docl> yeah, UF or something similar
23:24 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Or well maybe more redirection, thermal energy is problematic but yeah I see that
23:25 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> You'd not be able to have anything in the vaporisation zone but just beyond that you could limit shockwaves, and IR through to visible light
23:26 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Not much you can do against hard radiation only mass can get in the way of that
23:26 < docl> if you can tie a bunch of the energy into plasma phase transitions maybe you can just dump it in the grid or something? nano probably unlocks RTAP superconductors, but if not that you could have heat pumps swarming around protect your cables 
23:27 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Being able to prevent fallout spreading would also be really useful
23:27 < docl> for sure
23:27 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@gateway/tor-sasl/justanotheruser] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:27 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Could actually increase usage of nukes though
23:27 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> If fallout isn't a threat the major detracting factor beyond the lingering fear is gone
23:28 < docl> yeah limiting the blast kind of just makes it more useful as a way to do smaller scale demolitions/strikes
23:29 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Tactical nuclear weapons would definitely become more used if there wasn't the spectre of fallout
23:29 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Tbh it might mean the original hopes to use nukes for large scale engineering projects would happen
23:30 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> But tbh nanotech would make digging canals and giant caverns easier anyway
23:30 < docl> also we're talking a huge increase in ability to produce nukes in the first place. just filter U-235 out of a few thousand tons of random rock if you can't access the ore
23:30 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Thermodynamic efficiency limits of uranium separation could prolly be achieved. Something like the fountain head in diamond age
23:31 < docl> you can also remove the isotopes from nuclear waste for safer/faster burning
23:31 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> That's an upside too
--- Log closed Sat Nov 04 00:00:15 2023