--- Log opened Sun Dec 10 00:00:54 2023
02:07 < fenn> docl: some very rough calculations for lunar mining makes it a hard sell without in-situ industry bootstrapping https://pastebin.com/raw/bjDJUzXn
02:08 < fenn> tldr if the lunar factory can process its seed weight in ore per (earth) day, it must cost less than 50USD/kg to build and launch, in order to break even over 20 years
02:09 < fenn> i checked the metal prices and they're within 50% of current market prices
02:12 < fenn> your policy "flush everything < $10k/kg" assumes that the return trip is somehow the expensive part, which doesn't seem right to me
02:13 < fenn> the expensive part is either getting a crapload of clanking bootstrap kit out to the asteroid, or designing a self replicating seed
02:13 < fenn> also it takes a lot of time, and that's time the investment principal is tied up
02:15 < fenn> you can't speed it up by reducing the return payload mass, because it takes a lot of time to refine the ores in the first place
02:16 < fenn> and/or bootstrap the refinery machines
02:17  * fenn played space engineers once or twice, certified space bootstrapping expert
02:44 < fenn> gonna need to refine some gundanium alloy to protect your haul
02:44 < fenn> .t https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJzA3mMrNKo
02:44 < EmmyNoether> [Space Engineers]A-36 Mobile Suit - YouTube
03:52 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:56 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
04:56 < kanzure> a thread with some scientific illustrators https://twitter.com/KordingLab/status/1711402197614031243
05:31 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
06:37 < docl> fenn: to clarify, I was envisioning this for metal asteroid mining and not lunar, with no complex clanking bootstrap. the return trip is very expensive if you use rocket fuel from earth.
06:37 < fenn> well of course you don't do that
06:37 < fenn> are you aware of https://neumannspace.com/ metal plasma thruster
06:38 < docl> hadn't heard of it
06:39 < docl> tried to google for metal ion thrusters but was getting basically nothing
06:39 < fenn> so, you can use basically any metal, with various tradeoffs between thrust and Isp. magnesium seems to work pretty well
06:40 < fenn> it just zaps the surface with an electric arc and metal ions go flying off in roughly one direction
06:40 < fenn> you feed a propellant rod into it, which gets slowly eaten away
06:42 < docl> nice! I figured something like that should work. I wonder how dependent on the shape of the electrode it is?
06:42 < fenn> ok this website is useless, sorry
06:43 < docl> can you just slice off chunks of nickel-iron
06:43 < docl> yeah not your fault, it's designed for investors not humans
06:43 < fenn> yeah i don't see why not
06:43 < fenn> often they have olivine embedded which might complicate things
06:45 < fenn> it needs to have a hole bored into the center for the cathode
06:45 < fenn> er, cathode trigger pin
06:45 < fenn> diagram https://web.archive.org/web/20190430201757/https://neumannspace.com/science/
06:48 < fenn> easily tens of km/s
06:58 < fenn> seems like you can't just crank up the power or it will melt, so reasonably sized fuel rods will take a few months at minimum to burn through
07:05 -!- Jay_Dugger [~jwd@47-185-240-109.dlls.tx.frontiernet.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:16 < Jay_Dugger> Hello, everyone.
07:19 < docl> hello
07:20 < Jay_Dugger> .m https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1733626990970699784
07:20 < AugustaAva> ​twitter: <kanzure> @Ryan_Singer Did you know humans are also intelligent, and decentralized
07:20 < Jay_Dugger> plusgood
07:21 < Jay_Dugger> also much better than my whining about "Lem wrote this all in three short books; doesn't anybody read?"
07:22 < fenn> lem wrote about everything though; it's cheating
07:23 < fenn> no, nobody reads anymore
07:23 < Jay_Dugger> You're right. Next year I'll give out copies of his Summae Technologicae.
07:24 < fenn> you know i was literally looking at the page on Summa Technologiae ten minutes ago
07:24 < docl> is he good? or crazy?
07:24 < Jay_Dugger> This year was Wolfram's "What Is ChatGPT Doing"
07:24 < Jay_Dugger> Neither good nore crazy, just one-note.
07:25 < Jay_Dugger> Read too much SF, so easy to find a relevant reference.
07:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> in vivo polymer photopolymerization https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aba7406
07:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Here, we show a digital near-infrared (NIR) photopolymerization (DNP)–based 3D printing technology that enables the noninvasive in vivo 3D bioprinting of tissue constructs. In this technology, the NIR is modulated into customized pattern by a digital micromirror device, and dynamically projected for spatially inducing the polymerization of monomer solutions. By ex vivo irradiation with the
07:58 < hprmbridge> kanzure> patterned NIR, the subcutaneously injected bioink can be noninvasively printed into customized tissue constructs in situ."
08:00 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@gateway/tor-sasl/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:01 < docl> Not sure I agree with him on this one: "A “better” theory will be the kind of theory thanks to which we will manage to control evolution, change the speed and range of an organism’s regenerative potential, or orchestrate genetic traits in fetuses. All this will turn out to be possible long before, say, we gain the ability to create the chromosome apparatus of a nucleus in an artificial manner"
08:05 < docl> impressive that he brought up the possibility of an artificial nucleus at all, but there's probably going to be a lot of control that eludes us prior to that point imho
08:12 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@gateway/tor-sasl/justanotheruser] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:17 < fenn> i think he just meant an understanding of gene regulation and the ability to affect it
08:18 < docl> well, maybe he means we'll have regenerative medicine advances and ivf gene mods before then, which is fair
08:19 < fenn> there's two layers of translation to be interpreted; polish -> english and 1964 science terminology -> 2023 science terminology
08:19 < docl> true enough that we have a broad understanding of gene regulation now and can mess with it. actually reverse engineering it in detail is yet to come
08:20 < fenn> de novo genome printing is a ways off
08:21 < fenn> to say nothing of designing a genome from scratch
08:33 < docl> I kind of think a nanosystem that produces RNA and ribosomes which replaces nucleus contents might be more doable than full control of gene expression. it's a different tech tree in general though (soft nano). but you could empirically derive cell types once you have that and use the rna profile / transcriptome of given cells as a starting point.
08:34 < docl> as long at the mechanism is inside the nucleus and doesn't mess with small molecule balance, the rest of the cell doesn't need to know how it does things
08:46 < docl> https://nautil.us/the-book-no-one-read-235082/ // The Book No One Read
08:46 < docl> > In Lem’s lexicon, virtual reality was “phantomatics,” molecular nanotechnology was “molectronics,” cognitive enhancement was “cerebromatics,” and biomimicry and the creation of artificial life was “imitology.” He had even coined a term for search-engine optimization, a la Google: “ariadnology.” The path to advanced artificial intelligence he called the “technoevolution” of 
08:46 < docl> “intellectronics.”
08:55 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:59 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
10:06 < muurkha> fenn: obviously enough a lunar factory that expands with ISRU can eventually process trillions of times its seed weight per earth day
10:06 < muurkha> without a clanking bootstrap kit it's a nonstarter
10:08 < fenn> well i wasn't talking about a fully self replicating system
10:09 < fenn> more like bringing bags of portland cement instead of cement mix
10:09 < fenn> then adding gravel and sand found at the construction site
10:10 < fenn> (analogy of course
10:10 < muurkha> fenn: wasn't Mycoplasma laboratorium "de novo genome printing" in 02010, 13 years ago?  if not, what is the difference from what you're talking about?
10:11 < fenn> if you have a fully self replicating system, then launch costs are irrelevant because the final value is probably greater than your current GDP
10:11 < muurkha> unless launch is politically impossible
10:11 < fenn> lem was talking about human evolution, not mycoplasma evolution
10:12 < muurkha> oh, do you mean "de novo human genome printing", then?
10:12 < fenn> yeah, insert philosophical argument here
10:14 < docl> if you can specialize in just turning random material into high exhaust velocity propellant you're already at the point where you can bring big chunks home from asteroids. however, if you merge that process with refining you can have the chunks you bring home be more valuable (without spending time sitting on the asteroid refining it)
10:15 < fenn> ionizing matter is energetically expensive
10:15 < docl> Dani Eder has some different processes here https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Space_Transport_and_Engineering_Methods/Ion_and_Plasma_Engines
10:15 < fenn> so it kinda matters where exactly in the asteroid belt you're doing this
10:15 < docl> how many J per ton to ionize say iron, hmm.
10:16 < fenn> .gpt4 how many J per tonne to ionize iron? show your work, think step by step, get the right answer
10:16 < docl> 762.5 kJ/mol, 55.8 g/mol
10:17 < fenn> .units (762.5 kJ/mol)/(55.8 g/mol) in MJ/kg
10:18 < fenn> .help
10:18 < fenn> EmmyNoether: aren't you a saxo bot
10:18 < gptpaste> ​The ionization energy of iron (Fe) is the amount of energy required to remove one electron from a neutral atom. The first ionization energy for iron is 762.5 kJ/mol.1 tonne = 1,000,000 gramsThe atomic weight of iron (Fe) is approximately 55.845 g/mol.So, in one tonne of iron there are:(1,000,000 g / 55.845 g/mol) = 17,897 molTherefore, the total energy required to i - https://bin.gy/glysiderat
10:19 < docl> am getting 43.5 x GJ/kg
10:20 < docl> I think I multiplied when I should have divided, lemme try again
10:22 < docl> 13.7 MJ/kg? seems low, 13.7 GJ/T would be less than what you get burning a ton of coal
10:23 < L29Ah> metals give electrons readily
10:23 < docl> funny how the bot turns GJ into TJ when describing it verbally
10:24 < L29Ah> https://0x0.st/H3VR.txt una-cybertron-7b-v2 goes bonkers early
10:24 < docl> yeah... ok that makes sense. it's not too different from the numbers for xenon
10:25 < fenn> i really would rather just have an LLM that knew how to format output suitable for feeding into GNU units
10:25 < fenn> and call GNU units automatically, and feed that back into its context
10:26 < fenn> but they all seem kinda brain-addled on this point for some reason
10:28 < docl> well looks like the singularity is on hold because all the bots are systematically biased to think anything interesting is harder than it is
10:29 < fenn> they're just imitating humans, who think the same thing
10:29 -!- nmz787_ [~nmz787@user/nmz787] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:30 < nmz787_> .gpt tell me the transhuman characteristics of human design rave babies
10:30 < gptpaste> ​As an AI language model, I cannot provide information on "human design rave babies" as it is not a scientifically recognized term or concept. Please provide more context or clarify your question.# Sun 10 Dec 19:30:57 CET 2023 - tell me the transhuman characteristics of  - https://bin.gy/heciceltim
10:32 < muurkha> WP says iron's first ionization energy is 762.5 kJ/mol and its atomic mass is 55.845 g/mol, which does indeed work out to 13.65 MJ/kg, which, yes, is less than you get from burning coal.  But that's what you'd expect, since as L29Ah points out, what distinguishes metals is that they give up their electrons readily
10:37 < docl> yeah once I realize that it made sense. heavy elements and metals in particular are unlike e.g. carbon in this respect.
10:45 < muurkha> well, no
10:46 < muurkha> I mean we're talking about a state transition that reduces the energy you get from combusting carbon
10:47 < muurkha> carbon's corresponding numbers are 1086.5 kJ/mol, 12.01 g/mol, and 90.5 MJ/kg
10:47 < docl> am looking at the periodic table. ptable.com has a good interface
10:48 < muurkha> I guess that large number is why there aren't a lot of carbon anions around, just covalent carbon compounds
10:48 < docl> ohhh, that makes sense
10:49 < muurkha> s/anions/cations/
10:49 < muurkha> (there aren't a lot of carbon anions around either, but that's related to adding an electron to the carbon, not removing one)
10:51 < muurkha> if you're burning iron to Fe₂O₃, though, which as I understand it is pretty much purely ionic, the energy required to remove three electrons from each iron atom reduces the energy you get from the reaction
10:59 < docl> in case anyone lurking is not tracking this, the way you get ions is by heating something up enough to knock the electrons off. the low mass of the electron means it gets knocked out of its energy well, especially the outermost orbital. removing one electron makes a cation (positive ion), and the cost to do that depends on the substance. these charged particles can then be separated by sending them 
10:59 < docl> past a magnet (as was done in the calutron)
11:06 < L29Ah> preparative mass-spectroscopy sounds like a very expensive way for general ore processing
11:07 < docl> maybe? thing is we're talking about ionizing for fuel anyway
11:07 < L29Ah> i doubt you need to separate ions for ion thrusters
11:08 < docl> so if you push your exhaust plume past a magnet, you could catch the atoms worth $30,000/kg
11:13 < fenn> separating the ions doesn't cost any energy
11:15 < L29Ah> 20th century uranium caultrons ate ~10% of U235 fission energy IIRC
11:53 -!- cthlolo [~lorogue@77.33.23.154] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:02 -!- nmz787_ [~nmz787@user/nmz787] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
12:17 < docl> .t https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2041-8205/812/2/L28
12:17 < EmmyNoether> ShieldSquare Captcha
12:17 < docl> "PHOTOIONIZATION IN THE SOLAR WIND"
12:18 < docl> if you look at table 1, Fe is commonly found ionized at 16+
12:19 < docl> that happens close to the sun, of course. the electrons and cations become spread out enough to be frozen in by a few solar radii out
12:24 < docl> if you concentrate solar energy with big mirrors, I wonder how close to that ionizing potential you can reach? it's tricky to reflect x-rays, but high UV certainly could be, and that's enough to ionize O2
12:25 < fenn> there are also particle-particle collisions. perhaps superkuh can answer
12:26 < fenn> i think you can just convert the ionization energy to eV
12:26 < docl> the trick with x-rays seems to be to use shallow angles https://universe.gsfc.nasa.gov/xrays/MirrorLab/xoptics.html
12:27 < fenn> two photon effects could do it too
12:28 < fenn> or use a solar pumped laser
12:28 < fenn> what was the goal again?
12:28 < fenn> efficient propulsion using Fe+16 ions?
12:29 < fenn> because usually ion engines try to minimize the ionization energy of the propellant
12:30 < fenn> it's effectively wasted energy because you can accelerate the ions to whatever velocity you want with high voltage grids
12:37 < muurkha> docl: there are other ways to ionize things than heating them; neon tubes and car batteries do it with an electric field, and salts and acids can ionize (especially) metals without either heating or a macroscopic electric field
12:38 < docl> I'm wondering about frietas design where he uses a pulsed laser in addition to a solar furnace https://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/3.14.htm
12:40 < muurkha> yeah, ultrashort laser pulses ionize atoms by producing a microscopic electric field strong enough to rip electrons off of them
12:40 < docl> seems like the pulsed laser might not be needed since it's concentrating sunlight which contains UV
12:40 < muurkha> and UV and shorter photons can ionize atoms by virtue of large photon energy even at very low electric field strengths
12:41 < muurkha> those are two more ways to ionize things
12:45 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
12:45 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap
13:04 -!- cthlolo [~lorogue@77.33.23.154] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:31 < docl> https://archive.is/IMnX // Laser Isotope Separation (from the freitas article's bibliography)
13:33 < docl> > For example, calcium-43 used in medical research costs about $400 per milligram when produced on Calutrons but would cost just a few dollars per milligram using LIS technology.
13:36 < fenn> also a suppressed technology for obvious reasons
13:38 < docl> OK so instead of throwing it past a magnet, one option might be to use a tuned laser that affects platinum more than nickel-iron to ablate any atoms of it from near the surface layer. then you could alternate between that and focused sunlight. during the platinum extraction phase, you'd use a strong electric field to wisk it away. during the bulk phase, you turn the ions of nickel and iron to thrust
13:39 < fenn> is that possible?
13:39 < fenn> i mean, laser isotope separation occurs in the gas phase
13:40 < fenn> i got the impression it was more like a quadrupole mass spec
13:41 < docl> I mean, I don't see why it couldn't work at solid phase. but I could be wrong. if we need it in gas phase first, hmm. seems like you end up with the gas occupying a lot of volume per unit mass.
13:42 < fenn> you'd also need chlorine or whatever
13:49 < docl> that article doesn't mention chlorine
13:54 < docl> hmm. I wonder if you can use this to mine the lunar surface from lunar orbit? tune the laser to platinum, catch the plume
14:01 -!- helleshin [~talinck@108-225-123-172.lightspeed.cntmoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:07 -!- helleshin [~talinck@108-225-123-172.lightspeed.cntmoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:10 < fenn> surface atoms are a tiny fraction of the bulk material tho
14:12 < docl> that's true
14:12 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@yoke.ch0wn.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:12 -!- EmmyNoether [~EmmyNoeth@yoke.ch0wn.org] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:13 < fenn> .units test
15:03 < muurkha> fenn: what do you mean about chlorine?
15:06 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Wash your hands. Don't touch your face. Avoid fossil fuels and animal products. Have no/fewer children. Protest, elect sane politicians. Invest ecologically.]
15:08 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:13 < Ashstar> chemical vapor recovery, 
15:14 < Ashstar> use a Mass spec to seperate
15:14 < Ashstar> you were talking about mining lunar regolith
15:15 < Ashstar> sure, of course, if that is the best method, they will use it. 
15:16 < Ashstar> might have to use more conventional mining and refining methods
15:19 < docl> hmm. if you take the surface of the moon, 10^19 mm^2, there's about 10^12 atoms per mm^2. then divide by avogadros, gives 10^9 or so moles. depending on composition that's some number of kilotons of matter (assuming 1 atom deep)
15:20 < docl> (moles of atoms, that is)
15:22 < docl> probably not worth it for ppm quantities, only that only gives kilograms worth. maybe worth it if the photons go millions of atoms deep though
15:25 < docl> of course with the asteroid chunk case you are accounting for this by ablating away the non-expensive stuff (and putting that to work as thrust). probably not worth doing for the moon unless also trying to harvest bulk elements (oxygen, silicon, aluminum, etc)
15:25 < Ashstar> there would be areas of higher conc. of course, also, asrteroid impact
15:25 < Ashstar> areas
15:26 < Ashstar> Im sure they will be mining in those areas
15:27 < Ashstar> at least they don't have to have high vacuum pumps
15:29 < docl> well, there's no aqueous beneficiation on the moon, so it's pretty much just the protoplanetary core fragments (metal asteroids). that is highly enriched (10-100ppm) platinum compared to any ore on Earth though
15:33 < Ashstar> well, that reamains to bd, there might be a lot more water than we imagine, locked deep w/in cradders
15:34 < Ashstar> the aqueus extraction still might work
15:34 < Ashstar> vapor sep would be difficult, have to have a cyclotrom mass spec
15:35 < Ashstar> 100ppm is not a huge amount, but here very profitable
15:35 < Ashstar> amount
15:39 < docl> I just mean the geologic history is non aqueous (mars has beneficiated minerals due to past water e.g.). fair amt locked in lunar poles
15:40 < Ashstar> in the US, it is in oz/ton. A gram of gold is worth about $25, so 2 grams or better would be viewed as high-grade for bulk tonnage mining
15:40 < Ashstar> Pt is more expensive
15:41 < docl> pretty close to that, $29/g
15:41 < docl> if you could extract without landing, that could be rather attractive to early stage miners
15:42 < Ashstar>  grades of 6 grams platinum + palladium/ tonne over 2 metres as a reasonable thresh-old for high-grade
15:42 < docl> that was my thought (could be crazy). laser separation is a cheaper alternative to mass spec based, at least cheaper than the calutrons were
15:43 < Ashstar> you have to seperate out the varius vapors, plasma atoms
15:43 < Ashstar> for something like a laser'
15:43 < Ashstar> vapor
15:44 < Ashstar> possible
15:44 < Ashstar> we shall see
15:45 < Ashstar> maybe
15:46 < docl> the idea is to select which atoms will react most strongly by carefully tuning lasers based on their spectral lines. in that link I gave they mention lighting up sodium in the ionosphere that comes from micrometeor impacts. apparently useful in astronomy
15:51 < docl> I think you can ablate atoms selectively from the surface of an object this way as well, but what they are doing it for is a gas. frietas atomic separator replicator idea is partly based on this. he pictures it with the boiled off atoms from a solar furnace heated asteroid chunk forming a hot neutralized plasma stream that gets hit with specialized lasers to separate things out
15:52 < Ashstar> hm
15:53 < docl> https://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/3.14.htm
15:53 < Ashstar> well, it will be practical and done, if feasable
15:55 < Ashstar> 1981
15:56 < Ashstar> have you looked at citation index for new stuff on this
15:56 < Ashstar> Uof Texas, Georgetown
15:56 < Ashstar> shit, I got to get back to work
15:59 < docl> got any links or specific refs?
15:59 < docl> lot of this stuff seems to sit on the shelf and collect dust for 40+ years
16:03 < docl> https://archive.is/HNQ1F // Space Mining’s Best Prospect Is VC Money, Not Asteroid Gold
16:04 < docl> recent article about how this is high risk unprofitable blah blah
16:06 < docl> "Bloomberg Opinion columnist Javier Blas recently calculated that the price of a precious metal such as gold would need to jump 140,000-fold for astro mining to become profitable."
16:06 < L29Ah> just wait until space launches become cheap enough
16:09 < Ashstar> there are many reasons why good projects don't mature, docl
16:09 < Ashstar> or take off
16:11 < Ashstar> I was involved in making a 3D Xray fiber optic array that allowed for a focal resolution that was very high, 100u lenses, meant you needed a lot less photons or Xrays
16:11 < Ashstar> the issue was gravity
16:12 < Ashstar> they had to be perfectly symmetrical, with each haveing a hollow diameter of 10u
16:12 < Ashstar> it was impossible to do on Earth
16:12 < Ashstar> gravity affected each fiber
16:13 < Ashstar> lots of ideas fail to come off
16:18 < docl> what mfg process was involved? drawing towers?
16:20 < docl> would it still work if you used atomically precise gemstone fibers?
16:21 -!- Gooberpatrol_66 [~Gooberpat@user/gooberpatrol66] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:26 < Ashstar> yes
16:26 < Ashstar> draw towers
16:27 < Ashstar> lots of experimentation with various methods, methods of melting the glass
16:27 < Ashstar> angles of pull
16:27 < Ashstar> innert gasses
16:28 < Ashstar> just couldnt get the 10 micron hollow fibers, eprfectly symmetrical
16:29 < Ashstar> as you bundled them down during sequential pulls
16:29 < Ashstar> if we were in microgravity, like the ISS
16:30 < Ashstar> maybe
16:30 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:30 < Ashstar> we used BoSi
16:31 < Ashstar> we needed them to be hollow so we could grow CsI crystals inside
16:31 < Ashstar> that floresce after being hit w X-Rays
16:32 < Ashstar> optical light
16:33 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
16:34 < Ashstar> I remember they had a lab party/opffice. I had been sick, so diddnt attend. They told me they left a carton of ice cream n the freezer for me. When I came in the next day, I went to go look for my ice cream. Found a ice cream carton, assumed it was mine, as I opened it, with anticipation, there was a human breast
16:35 < Ashstar> we were targeting our X-rays for mammarian purposes
16:35 < Ashstar> breast cancer
16:36 -!- juri_ [~juri@79.140.117.38] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:36 < Ashstar> I put it back into the freezer
16:36 < docl> ah. that's why you don't put lab samples in the food freezer
16:36 < Ashstar> with appologies to the former breast owner
16:37 < Ashstar> yup
16:37 < Ashstar> not a good idea
16:37 < Ashstar> even if clearly labeled
16:38 < docl> https://www.issnationallab.org/exotic-glass-fibers-from-space-the-race-to-manufacture-zblan/
16:39 -!- juri____ [~juri@79.140.117.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
16:40 < docl> is it devitrification artifacts that's the main issue?
16:41 < docl> maybe the problem is different with BoSi vs ZBLAN
16:41 < Ashstar> yup, exactly what we had issues with
16:42 < Ashstar> , they are mainly referring to crystallization and phase separation within the fibers. Due to convection-induced effects in molten ZBLAN glass, as well as other reasons researchers are still trying to determine, ZBLAN optical fibers made in Earth’s gravity are prone to having crystals form during the transition from a molten liquid state to a solid-like state.
16:42 < Ashstar> we tried all sorts of oven setups
16:42 < docl> microwaves etc I'm assuming
16:42 < Ashstar> yup
16:43 < Ashstar> well, I went on to work for Siemens
16:43 < Ashstar> then on the space telescope
16:44 < Ashstar> the company was sued, I left the fiber optic field
16:45 < Ashstar> it still was always in the back of my mind, what if?
16:45 < Ashstar> zero gravity
16:46 < Ashstar> I guess my point is, that sometimes technologies don't align, they might take years
16:46 < Ashstar> to come together
16:46 < docl> ok, that makes sense
16:47 < docl> is there a reason this needs to be BoSi? does it need better thermal resistance or something?
16:48 < docl> mixtures have lower freezing points, so maybe it's easier to vitrify?
16:52 < Ashstar> I don't rememmer the exact reasons, when I started out college, they had this glass blowing kiln, taught glass blowing. The kiln was on all the time, people did their stuff in the middle of the night. They would put on rock music do their thing, while I would do my late night crams, watch them blow glass
16:52 < Ashstar> I fell in love with glass tech
16:53 < Ashstar> watching them do their thing
16:54 < Ashstar> plus, it was a place I could sit on their couch, study all night for exams
16:54 < Ashstar> I digress
16:55 < Ashstar> glass is a very interesting substance liqid amorphs solid
16:55 < Ashstar> liquid
16:55 < Ashstar> solid
16:58 < docl> very much so
17:07 -!- Gooberpatrol66 [~Gooberpat@user/gooberpatrol66] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:59 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-113-55-200.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:02 -!- Gooberpatrol66 [~Gooberpat@user/gooberpatrol66] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
18:12 -!- Jay_Dugger [~jwd@47-185-240-109.dlls.tx.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:01 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:05 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:13 < muurkha> Ashstar: that's awesome
19:16 < muurkha> what's BoSi?
19:16 < muurkha> oh, maybe BOSi?  borosilicate?
19:17 < Ashstar> yes
20:04 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
20:04 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:33 -!- Gooberpatrol66 [~Gooberpat@user/gooberpatrol66] has joined #hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Mon Dec 11 00:00:55 2023