--- Log opened Tue Jan 09 00:00:24 2024
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02:49 < nsh> .t https://www.quantamagazine.org/cells-across-the-body-talk-to-each-other-about-aging-20240108/
02:49 < EmmyNoether> Quanta Magazine
02:49 < nsh> Cells Across the Body Talk to Each Other About Aging
02:49 < nsh> Biologists discovered that mitochondria in different tissues talk to each other to repair injured cells. When their signal fails, the biological clock starts winding down.
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08:27 < hprmbridge> fodagut> I have a 12th gen framework laptop AMA
08:28 < L29Ah> fodagut: what's the thermal resistance of the CPU cooling system?
08:29 < hprmbridge> fodagut> what do you mean fenn? there's no need for a 3rd party aftermarket since framework maintains a market for non-OEM parts themselves
08:41 < hprmbridge> fodagut> sorry just got caught up.
08:42 < hprmbridge> fodagut> L29Ah: if you're asking for numbers, idk. i can just say that I've run some CPU and (integrated) GPU-intensive workloads and it's caused the fan to get obnoxiously loud at times, but I've never had any problems with overheating.
08:43 < hprmbridge> fodagut> under normal stresses it gets louder than my macbook pro, but not annoyingly so. only when webcash mining didi it get really loud.
08:43 < hprmbridge> fodagut> like usual it seems to run a bit better under windows than linux, so that might reflect my poor linux configuration
08:47 < L29Ah> idk what people mean when they tell "problems with overheating" since modern hardware just reduces its performance when it gets hot
08:47 < L29Ah> i need numbers so i could compare apples to apples
08:49 < L29Ah> or at least i would be curious to see some benchmark at the thermal steady state, for example `sysbench cpu run --threads=$(nproc) --time=300` output and the ambient temperature
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09:11 < hprmbridge> fodagut> it means i've run intensive cpu workloads (e.g. webcash mining) for extended periods of time without any reduced performance.
09:11 < hprmbridge> fodagut> the performance reduction is what people mean by problems with overheating
09:12 < hprmbridge> fodagut> i'm traveling right now and don't have my framework with me, but I could run that when I get home
09:53 < hprmbridge> fodagut> The problem is that your first line "In December, I went to the Foresight Institute’s Vision Weekend 2023 in San Francisco. I had a lot of fun talking to a bunch of weird and ambitious geeks about the glorious abundant technological future." could work for any year in the range 2007 to the present.
09:53 < hprmbridge> fodagut> We've had nearly 20 years of "talking... about the glorious abundant technological future" and literally almost nobody (from that crowd) actually working towards it.
09:56 < hprmbridge> fodagut> Regarding your BFG launcher, you should read up on the Launch Loop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_loop
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10:00 < hprmbridge> fodagut> Cannon (or spin) launch systems aren't very interesting for use on Earth. It is nearly impossible to design a functional payload to survive the insane forces encountered when launching a hypersonic payload from within the troposphere.
10:01 < hprmbridge> fodagut> Spinlaunch has a good system which is ideally setup for launching raw materials mined from the Moon to cislunar trajectories, however.
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13:34 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/08/style/marie-curie-laboratory-demolition-paris-scli-intl-scn/index.html
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14:43 < hprmbridge> Eli> @alonzoc If I learn lambda calculus, will it make me a better programmer? Currently teaching myself linear algebra.
14:45 < Ashstar> it helps
14:45 < hprmbridge> bootstrap3141> Sort of orthogonal to what makes someone a successful software engineer these days.  You’d be better off learning differential and integral calculus if you haven’t already.  It’s great exercise in deductive reasoning.
14:45 < Ashstar> if nothing else, the mental discipline, focus
14:45 < Ashstar> by the time I got to calculus, it came together
14:46 < Ashstar> I did a year, self paced Calculus in 10 weeks
14:46 < hprmbridge> Eli> Done plenty of integral and calc 3. I'm assuming differential calc is just differential equations? Mostly doing LA for AI stuff
14:46 < Ashstar> it was an ephinay
14:46 < Ashstar> epiphany
14:47 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> it defenitely helps, especially once you grok continuation passing style
14:47 < Ashstar> had this witch gf, knife throwing bitch, which mad me go to library
14:47 < Ashstar> till late, do calculus
14:48 < hprmbridge> bootstrap3141> Using lambda calculus can be perceived as a code smell depending on the environment. It’s not a useless thing to learn, but it’s value is very environment/context specific.
14:48 < hprmbridge> bootstrap3141>
14:48 < hprmbridge> bootstrap3141> It’s not a bad idea to be familiar though.
14:48 < hprmbridge> bootstrap3141> If I saw someone writing a bunch of lambdas in Python I’d be a bit curious what’s going on.  Maybe it’s the right approach, but often isn’t
14:50 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It does depend on what you are writing, I'm used to writing quite arcane haskell code for constraint solvers and the like so I am slightly biased. Lambda's as a language construct in imperative languages can be misplaced but having better understanding of the theory of the semantics is defo worth it
14:50 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> And continuations are imo the mother of all control structures so if you understand them all other control structures become almost trivial
14:51 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah in an imperative language if you're passing higher order functions around you are usually making a big mistake imo
14:52 < hprmbridge> Eli> oh ok. I've seen lambdas in python. I guess I was first introduced to them by the name of "anonymous functions" when I was paid to work in the insane world known as JaveScript.
14:58 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Ahh the world of JS, I'm always amused when they typescript people try to implement monads or the like
14:58 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> God the further away I get from modern webdev the happier I am
15:02 < muurkha> I think the lambda calculus is useful for understanding programming language semantics
15:03 < hprmbridge> Eli> I feel like typescript was invented by people who were so sick of JS that they created their own programming language that wasn't as stupid to transpile to JS, just because it would be less work and more sane.
15:11 < muurkha> also though it's useful for understanding the limits of what's possible
15:12 < muurkha> like Turing machines, the lambda calculus shows that recursion and universal computation pop up surprisingly easily
15:13 < muurkha> occasionaly things like η-expansion are useful in practice in other programming languages.  they're definitely powerful mental tools
15:14 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah, it's also quite nice for giving intuition for fairly abstract notions. For example proving the greatest fixed point and least fixed point sre isomorphic in haskell really helped my grok the duality between folds and unfolds r
15:15 < muurkha> fodagut: you can compute the thermal resistance of the cooling system to a reasonable approximation because the thermal and power management stuff tells you how many watts you're burning and what the CPU temperature is
15:15 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> If you're interested in recursion schemes and the nature of fixed points https://stackoverflow.com/questions/45580858/what-is-the-difference-between-fix-mu-and-nu-in-ed-kmetts-recursion-scheme-pac suggests some really nice exercises
15:16 < muurkha> thanks!  Kmett is always a treat
15:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> As we all know there's no such thing as a space heater below 100% efficiency
15:16 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> GPUs make good central heating
15:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> His guanxi project is also a fun idea. I tinkered with a variant which basically involved replacing all the backtracking search with cached execution and a SAT solver call
15:18 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Very interesting especially when a friend of mine was looking at GPU accelerated SAT solving based on CSFLOC (google search it)
15:21 < muurkha> funi dea
15:21 < muurkha> *fun idea
15:22 < muurkha> fodagut: in the steady state, the watts burned equal the watts dissipated through the cooling system, so you can just divide to get a W/K thermal resistance
15:25 < Lando-SpacePimp> FUNGIDEA
15:25 < Ashstar> thermodynamic loss?
15:26 < Ashstar> steady state, ain't no such animule
15:26 < Ashstar> muurkha
15:27 < Ashstar> htere is steady state equilibrium in enzymatic reactions, Michaelis-Menton Kinetics
15:28 < Ashstar> but state transitions to electrical to ressistance heating is unidirectional
15:28 < Ashstar> even with RTG
15:30 < muurkha> Ashstar: I mean, when your laptop ramps up in power usage, it might be the case for a while that it is burning more power in the CPU than it is dissipating through the heatsinks
15:31 < Ashstar> ah
15:31 < muurkha> so if you divide its instantaneous power usage number by its instantaneous temperature difference over ambient, you will get an unrealistically rosy picture of its cooling performance
15:31 < muurkha> similarly, when it ramps down, for a while it will be dissipating more power through the heatsinks than it is burning in the CPU, and you might get an unrealistically rosy picture
15:32 < muurkha> but these average out over time.  if you have it using the same amount of power for a long time you can just divide the instantaneous power usage by the instantaneous temperature difference and get a reasonably good number
15:34 < Ashstar> that's not taking into account with increased R come I
15:34 < Ashstar> greater resistance, more current
15:34 < Ashstar> right
15:36 < muurkha> that's not a relevant phenomenon; we aren't talking about electrical resistance at all, except implicitly as the source of (some of) the heat
15:37 < muurkha> we're talking about thermal resistance, which is the ratio of heat flow to temperature difference, just as electrical resistance is the ratio of charge flow to voltage difference
15:37 < muurkha> so right now on my laptop I'm using 5.864 watts:
15:37 < muurkha> : tmp; cat /sys/class/power_supply/BAT0/power_now 
15:37 < muurkha> 5684000
15:37 < muurkha> and the CPU is 45°:
15:37 < muurkha> : tmp; sensors
15:37 < muurkha> ...
15:38 < muurkha> thinkpad-isa-0000
15:38 < muurkha> ...
15:38 < muurkha> CPU:          +45.0°C  
15:38 < muurkha> ...
15:38 < muurkha> (btw : tmp; is my shell prompt)
15:38 < muurkha> it's about 25° outside the laptop, so ΔT ≈ 20K
15:39 < muurkha> this suggests a thermal resistance of about 0.3 W/K
15:40 < muurkha> btw, while there are electrical components that have greater resistance when they have more current, it's pretty atypical behavior and tends to cause oscillation; the typical examples are neon or fluorescent bulbs and tunnel diodes
15:41 < muurkha> (speaking about electrical resistance there)
15:43 < muurkha> heh, helpfully strace sensors tells me that that line of output from sensors(1) comes from /sys/class/hwmon/hwmon5/temp1_label and /sys/class/hwmon/hwmon5/temp1_input, which says 43000 now (interpreted as 43.0° C)
15:46 < Ashstar> phone
15:46 < Ashstar> brb
15:52 < Ashstar> sorry, business call
15:53 < Ashstar> wha
15:53 < Ashstar> oh, 
15:54 < Ashstar> flourescent use ballasts with capacitors
15:54 < Ashstar> but that is different
15:55 < Ashstar> diodes just are check valves
15:55 < Ashstar> electrical
15:55 < Ashstar> the temperature of a resister goes up, the resistance goes up
15:56 < Ashstar> if I rememmber my electronics
15:58 < muurkha> not diodes in general, *tunnel* diodes.  "check valves" is a good two-word summary of diodes but they are a great deal more complex than that
15:59 < muurkha> the reason fluorescents use ballasts (which traditionally use *inductors*, not capacitors) is precisely to suppress the oscillation or thermal runaway that would otherwise occur
16:01 < muurkha> different materials have thermal coefficients of resistivity with different signs.  if we attempt to preserve some semblance of relevance to the original topic, which was the thermal resistivity of the cooling system in the 12th-generation Framework laptop that fodagut has, the relevant resistors are fabricated on-chip out of silicon
16:02 < muurkha> silicon (and semiconductors in general) has a thermal coefficient of resistivity, because thermal ionization is the main source of the population of charge carriers in the conduction band
16:02 < Ashstar> of course
16:02 < muurkha> sorry, has a *negative* thermal coefficient of resistivity
16:02 < Ashstar> I have a material scienc background
16:03 < muurkha> don't be ridiculous
16:03 < Ashstar> also
16:03 < Ashstar> I ran  a lab
16:03 < muurkha> metals do have a positive thermal coefficient of resistivity, though
16:03 < Ashstar> material science lab
16:03 < muurkha> but we weren't talking about the *thermal* coefficient of resistance.  we were talking about the *current* coefficient of resistance
16:04 < Ashstar> yes, that, depending on material, varies
16:04 < muurkha> resistors in general have an almost undetectably low current coefficient of resistance
16:04 < Ashstar> depending on dialectric
16:05 < muurkha> now you're just repeating half-remembered terms that you think might be relevant
16:05 < Ashstar> and conductive material, how outer S shell electrons shred
16:05 < muurkha> dielectrics are irrelevant here, and I'm out
16:05 < Ashstar> they are
16:05 < Ashstar> materials are
16:05 < Ashstar> how hey share outer s shell electrons
16:06 < Ashstar> whatever
16:07 < Ashstar>  a stable electron configuration is created by sharing of electrons between neighbouring atoms. Two atoms that are covalently bonded will share at least one electron from each atom
16:09 < Ashstar> magnitude of the electronegativities of the atoms in the solid and the differences between these electronegativitie result, the bond-type triangle shown in the figure below can be used to predict the classification in which a solid should fall. Compounds with metallic bonds should be metallic solids, those with ionic bonds should be ionic solids, and those with covalent bonds should be 
16:09 < Ashstar> either molecular or network covalent solids
16:19 < L29Ah> how can i get this paper? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38181790/
16:20 < L29Ah> 00:37:33]<muurkha> : tmp; cat /sys/class/power_supply/BAT0/power_now 
16:20 < L29Ah> implying all the consumed power is dissipated at CPU; you should use intel_rapl to query the power, not ACPI, for example via https://github.com/l29ah/intel-powermon/
16:23 < L29Ah> ambient=27; intel-powermon | while read W; do T=$(sensors -u acpitz-acpi-0 | sed -ne 's#.*temp1_input: ##p'); echo -n "temp=${T}°C power=${W}W power/deltatemp="; echo "$W/($T-$ambient)" | bc -l; done
16:25 < Ashstar> https://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/materials/graphics/1.gif
16:26 < L29Ah> and run some cpu-topping workload so that other sources of error diminish in their relative size
16:28 < Ashstar> https://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/materials/graphics/13_19c.gif
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16:32 < muurkha> L29Ah: aha, thank you!
16:32 < muurkha> will it work on amd cpus?
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16:34 < muurkha> oh, yes
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16:40 < muurkha> it comes down to sudo cat /sys/class/powercap/intel-rapl:0/energy_uj
16:40 < muurkha> does that also include GPU energy?
16:41 < muurkha> it's delightful that the filename actually specifies the unit for once
16:41 < L29Ah> on intel it does
16:44 < muurkha> this also by its nature gives you the integral of power usage, so you automatically get an average over a long period of time if you sample at its endpoints
16:44 < muurkha> like SNMP counters
16:49 < L29Ah> unsuitable for our little experiment tho as you don't want to run your fans @100%, and also have other sources of heat inside your laptop
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16:52 < muurkha> you could perhaps derive rough upper and lower bounds from battery discharge rate and reported CPU energy usage
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18:55 < Ashstar> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f56Y1ZDsYgo'
18:55 < Ashstar> oops
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 10 00:00:24 2024