--- Log opened Fri May 24 00:00:04 2024
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04:42 < TMA> NewtonTrendy: if he were a mouse
04:43 < fenn> smh, i said i'd help with a harebrained startup and now the rationalists are trying to brainwash me
04:44 < fenn> david sinclair can be fast and loose with words sometimes
04:46 < fenn> do they really not have a transcript
04:47 < kanzure_> fenn: what are the latest advancements in brainwashing technology?
04:48 < fenn> the latest brainwashing tech is our first project i guess: https://chat.aisafety.info/
04:48 < fenn> (the task is to fix it, someone else built it)
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05:02 < NewtonTrendy> is he fast and loose in terms of honest but quick or in terms of inaccurate?
05:03 < kanzure_> iirc inaccuracy is why david sinclair is not liked by other researchers
05:03 < fenn> well OSK yamanaka factors DO reset the epigenetic state to a more "youthful" value, but we don't know if that actually makes humans live longer
05:03 < NewtonTrendy> whats wrong with people all wanting gene editing treatment and technology?
05:03 < fenn> there's nothing wrong with it, and anyone telling you otherwise is basically trying to kill you
05:04 < NewtonTrendy> He suggests that its likely, and saying that isnt proof it wont. in fact this is a suggestion that its likely it would
05:04 < fenn> it's a promising approach, and aligns with my understanding (programmed theory of aging)
05:04 < kanzure_> except for all the cancer that chugging some yamanaka factors causes
05:04 < fenn> that's why you don't go back very far
05:05 < kanzure_> also, there are no near-term adult gene therapy techniques to edit all the stem cells in your body
05:05 < fenn> a rejuvenated thymus will help with cancer. is it enough? i dunno
05:05 < NewtonTrendy> so whats with the quick suggestions of irrationality at the mention of the technology?
05:06 < fenn> because normies are stupid?
05:06 < NewtonTrendy> can you explain why that matters given that there is no problem with people liking the idea of genome editing?
05:07 < kanzure_> what is the specific thing you are wondering about
05:07 < NewtonTrendy> at the moment, the last thing i asked
05:07 < fenn> the most vocal and politically active people are on the extreme left and right ends of the political spectrum. both extremes dislike gene editing for different reasons
05:07 < NewtonTrendy> why does it get suggestions of irrationality followed by its good if people want it
05:07 < NewtonTrendy> makes us think of fair ways of doing it
05:07 < kanzure_> what does fairness have anything to do with it?
05:08 < NewtonTrendy> im surprised why you think both extremes dislike gene editing?
05:08 < fenn> fairness because that's the left's objection
05:08 < fenn> the right, i dunno "god" or something
05:08 < kanzure_> is NewtonTrendy specifically asking about politics though? i'm very confused about this conversation.
05:09 < NewtonTrendy> kanzure_: because it means we saves lives and achive overall human goals, ie we dont kill off 98% of the work force
05:09 < fenn> or some kind of disgust reaction / aesthetic argument
05:09 < kanzure_> if you want to kill off 98% of the work force, then you are going to need to seek other methods
05:09 < NewtonTrendy> its just a conversation, each point stands on its own
05:10 < NewtonTrendy> the radio does mention a few times that nuclear war is likely within 20 years
05:10 < kanzure_> are you in the longevity field- like are you a postdoc on anti-aging or some other role?
05:10 < NewtonTrendy> absolutly not
05:10 < NewtonTrendy> I didnt even do biology at gcse
05:11 < NewtonTrendy> but im very interested, and i've been reading DK's consice anoatomy. I'm a digital inventor and facilitator
05:11 < NewtonTrendy> I'm thinking about things like mass phsychological treatment/therapy with llms
06:22 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> >fenn I think you misanalyze the extreme right by missing the growing eugenicist section which is very much for and actually centralizes its belief around topics like gene editing. In other words, the "secular right"
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06:22 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> There are accounts on xitter in this vein with 100ks of followers
06:23 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> plus the new "amarnites"
06:26 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I think both left and right extremes have potential to start forming new ideologies inclusive of things like gene editing, and when that happens they'll seem to come from nowhere and blitz to power
06:31 < fenn> what's a "amarnite"
06:32 < fenn> i wouldn't call scientific eugenics "extreme right"
06:33 < fenn> most frothing nazis have no real understanding of genetics, almost by definition because nazi-ism is based on outdated concepts of race
06:34 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> amarnite is some very young (like below 18) group. I don't know much but they have a forum you can look at
06:34 < fenn> is there a reason i should care
06:34 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> what would you call extreme right then? I would say people who consider mass sterilizations are "extreme right" tbh
06:34 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> which I see a lot
06:35 < fenn> communists did it too
06:35 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> lol that is a nice horseshoe
06:35 < kanzure_> i think you two have different definitions of extreme right
06:35 < fenn> btw when i say eugenics i don't mean forced sterilization
06:36 < kanzure_> pinkbearer seems to be talking about recent online communities?
06:36 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> you should probably care because they're growing pretty fast and will be fairly prominent soon I believe
06:36 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I don't mean forced sterilization by eugenics either, I'm just discussing people who do. Or mass extermination
06:36 < fenn> i mean taking charge of our destiny, not letting random chance and runaway attractors shape the gene pool
06:37 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> Right. I think similarly
06:38 < fenn> no way in hell this was written by an 18 year old https://amarna-forum.net/t-Eugenics
06:39 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> You'd be surprised. I'm basing that claim off a poll I saw which had below 18s as like >70%
06:43 < kanzure_> young people are often underestimated :|
06:50 < fenn> i'd believe all the replies are <18
06:50 < fenn> these guys are all still very much in a "race" mindset
06:50 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> >kanzure I'm 20 myself haha
06:51 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> What do you think is wrong with the "race" mindset, fenn? Would like to hear your take
06:53 < fenn> would you take an image and quantize it into 4 colors?
06:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> it doesn't matter if you can genetically engineer progeny
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06:55 < fenn> an RGB image only has 3 color channels, but a genome has 100,000 or 3 billion
06:55 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> That’s a fair point, I saw it as just a way to interpret groupings of ancestry (which do clump together). You’re talking about the older caucasoid, mongoloid, etc right?
06:56 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I think there are a lot more “races” than that but I agree it’s not reaaaallly useful scientifically since it’s so insubstantial
06:56 < fenn> so we're going from a space with (3 billion)^4 = 10^38 possibilities, to 4, or 7, or whatever
06:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fenn what argument do you think is being advanced there?
06:57 < fenn> in the amarna link?
06:57 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> If you include ethnicity as a subdomain I think “race” can be a useful term
06:57 < hprmbridge> kanzure> if you have lousy biology it makes sense to want to change it
06:57 < hprmbridge> kanzure> and most biology is broken
06:57 < fenn> yes, i'm not even considering additions or deletions
06:58 < fenn> but purely from a breeding program viewpoint, "race" as a criterion is surely nowhere near optimal
06:58 < fenn> beware of ideas that make you special simply by believing in them
06:59 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I think part of that might be because it was killed as a science in its infancy before we had an understanding of genetics
06:59 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> For the technology of the time it’s a fairly decent system
06:59 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> But yeah nowhere near optimal as you put it.
07:00 < fenn> yeah because they (the nazis) literally killed the people who were studying human genetics (the jews) before there was time to get very much data
07:00 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> Racial classification existed before the nazis
07:00 < fenn> this is where the whole "jews are genetically inferior" idea came from. jews were studying genetics and their primary interest was the genetics of jews, for obvious reasons
07:00 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> Also were german/continental jews really studying human genetics?
07:01 < fenn> so there were a lot of scientific publications about various mutations, usually mutations that specifically affected jews
07:01 < jrayhawk_> tay-sachs, torsion dystonia, riley-day, gaucher's, etc.
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07:02 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I think the study of genetics stopped because of the taboo post-ww2, not because everyone who studied it died
07:03 < fenn> genetics didn't stop post-ww2
07:03 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> When I say genetics I mean the entire field that existed prior, not the deracinated fraction which persisted
07:03 < fenn> except for the soviet union
07:04 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> Which is why I said study of “race” might be so incomplete and bad, because it was stopped in its tracks
07:04 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> Very early on
07:05 < fenn> "race" is at best a clustering. not all clusters have the same variance. whether it's a useful model depends on how well separated the clusters are on features of interest
07:05 < L29Ah> pinkbearer: how about the study of phlogiston?
07:06 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> Only now that we have genetic testing have we found that yeah, population groupings and differing distribution of traits always existed
07:06 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> Phlogiston is pretty bad and more similar to classical greek logical “theories” than anything grounded
07:06 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> Today
07:07 < fenn> it's really a paradigm shift. we take for granted the sophisticated shared understanding of statistics in modern science
07:07 < fenn> at late as the 1950s they were getting multivariate regression wrong (e.g. the "mediterranean diet" study)
07:08 < fenn> (ancel keys seven countries study)
07:09 < fenn> i think some personality types are just drawn to a worldview without nuance or uncertainty
07:10 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I think there’s definitely something to the concept of race. Is there such a thing as a pure or aryan race, or any of the silly old constructs? No. Is it completely fabricated? No https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1243566721412104202/IMG_3571.jpg?ex=6651f142&is=66509fc2&hm=9eed21a152a5932fdbe10c279d1a4def248c95f54a9e1e870d273b7782dc9d1e&
07:10 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> But yeah without nuance you can draw some extremely stupid conclusions about race
07:28 < fenn> there are at least 6 clusters in that scatter plot
07:29 < fenn> i'm not saying "all humans are the same" i'm saying it's MORE complicated
07:30 < fenn> there's no "race" of northern italians
07:30 < fenn> at least not in the common understanding of the word
07:33 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I agree, i just want to make sure we’re on the same page regarding tabula rasa
07:47 < fenn> last estimate i heard was that life outcomes are ~90% "nature" once you give everyone adequate nutrition, which makes it MORE important to get it right on genetics
07:48 < fenn> a soft headed dumbed down digestible simple theory is very viral and useful for politics, but it's still WRONG
07:49 < fenn> we might say up and down but we all know the earth is round, right?
07:50 < fenn> it's not clear to me that people talking about race have any clue about genetic diversity or high dimensional statistics
07:51 < fenn> it's a completely different thing altogether to see the curve of the sphere on the horizon and feel yourself sucked toward its center by all that mass
07:52 < fenn> too easy to forget about it and revert to a simple flat earth model
07:55 < fenn> too easy to forget that the heavens are literally all around us, and we are a part of heaven
07:55 < NewtonTrendy> are the clusters being modelled related to either  verbalised speech compatible thought or the actual learned consciousness?
07:56 < NewtonTrendy> how does a new word effect it?
07:56 < fenn> geneticists have their own jargon for groups but it's not commonly used
07:57 < NewtonTrendy> thanks for not just saying im mad for speaking, but im very tired i didnt read the whole thing
07:58 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup#Phylogenetic_structure
07:59 < fenn> (and this is only one clustering method)
08:01 < NewtonTrendy> this is incredible, but it suggests that only a small group should breed to keep up with the mutations and not not dilute the genepool
08:01 < NewtonTrendy> (I'm not talking about just unmutated people)
08:04 < NewtonTrendy> fenn I CC0'd the radio transcripts already https://textradio.site
08:04 < NewtonTrendy> To finsish it i just need to publish the code
08:05 < NewtonTrendy> I need a framework like petals for each station
08:05 < fenn> oh right, mine's probably done by now.
08:06 < NewtonTrendy> was just checking it didnt crash for a few days
08:07 < fenn> transcript of the david sinclair interview on startalk linked earlier https://pastebin.com/raw/uv3pjseJ
08:07 < NewtonTrendy> :)
08:08 < fenn> i need to figure out speaker diarization in a way that doesn't involve installing a zillion python packages
08:08 < fenn> at least it's searchable
08:09 < NewtonTrendy> but we know it exists because we can very easily,
08:09 < NewtonTrendy> within just a matter of a week or two,
08:09 < NewtonTrendy> get tissues of animals to go back by 50, 75% of their age.
08:09 < NewtonTrendy> tissues
08:09 < NewtonTrendy> ?
08:09 < NewtonTrendy> i found that too
08:10 < fenn> presumably he means tissue culture, not a whole animal
08:10 < NewtonTrendy> i was sorting by timestamps from FasterWhisper at one point, not smart
08:11 < NewtonTrendy> My students don't think anything of reversing aging
08:11 < NewtonTrendy> by 70% in an animal or in a cell.
08:12 < NewtonTrendy> probably for us, but certainly for our children.
08:14 < NewtonTrendy> oh, my students in the lab are quite comfortable
08:14 < NewtonTrendy> dialing up and dialing down the age of mice.
08:16 < NewtonTrendy> And the lucky thing that we discovered
08:16 < NewtonTrendy> is that you only need three genes
08:16 < NewtonTrendy> to reset the entire age of the animal.
08:17 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> This is in vitro right, just small swatches of tissue? Or entire animals?
08:18 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I
08:18 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> 'm not familiar with aging technology, it'd be amazing if we have managed to deage mice
08:23 < NewtonTrendy> Well, given that it's working in dogs and in mice,
08:23 < NewtonTrendy> it's probably going to work in people, I would imagine.
08:25 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> incredible
08:25 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> do you have any studies/articles I can read?
08:26 < NewtonTrendy> I have this one open https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674%2822%2901570-7
08:26 < fenn> halfassed summary of the above transcript via kagi: https://rentry.co/david_sinclair_startalk_summary_via_kagi
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09:41 < hprmbridge> Eli> NewtonTrendy, using yamanaka factors to reverse aging in animals is not something I’ve seen. I know Sinclair recently released a paper that was largely panned by the scientific community. If there are any papers that suggest a real world fountain of youth I haven’t seen them personally. If you want evidence based information that is accessible to the lay person I would recommend
09:41 < hprmbridge> Eli> https://peterattiamd.com/outlive/
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09:47 < L29Ah> .t https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-48153-z
09:47 < saxo> Integrating human endogenous retroviruses into transcriptome-wide association studies highlights novel risk factors for major psychiatric conditions | Nature Communications
09:48 < NewtonTrendy> https://InterestingOldPatents.com (click categories)
09:57 < hprmbridge> Eli> This is a small synopsis of what other scientists thought about the Sinclair paper. It’s by no means the only criticism https://www.nad.com/news/david-sinclairs-claims-over-new-age-reversal-study-prompts-concern-and-criticism-by-fellow-biologists
09:58 < NewtonTrendy> 9193780, 9644022, 9803001, 9834595, 10550174, 10906961, and, 11028151 Are all related to coronavirus research and cures, latest is dated 8th june 2021
09:58 < NewtonTrendy> Adding these to it soon
09:58 < NewtonTrendy> when i understand them
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10:52 < geneh2> thermodynamic gradient descent https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.13817
10:59 < fenn> from sinclair's paper:  small molecules of basal cocktails used to generate induced pluripotent stem cells (iPSCs) valproic acid, CHIR-99021, E-616452, tranylcypromine and forskolin, also in humans CHIR-99021, E-616452, TTNPB, Y-27632, Smoothened Agonist, and ABT-869, VC6TF, C6NYSA
11:02 < NewtonTrendy> geneh2: is that your paper?
11:07 < geneh2> no
11:08 < NewtonTrendy> Well its awesome
11:08 < NewtonTrendy> thanks
11:08 < NewtonTrendy> also thanks for those chemical names fenn I forgot that I thought I should try and remember what CHIR-99021 was
11:10 < fenn> i've only heard of forskolin and valproic acid
11:11 < fenn> "A mixture of CHIR99021 and valproic acid (FX-322) is claimed to increase the proliferation of inner ear stem cells, potentially allowing regrowth of the hair cells which are important for hearing"
11:13 < fenn> "inhibits Glycogen synthase kinase 3 (GSK-3) which is an enzyme that adds phosphate molecules onto serine and threonine amino acid residues. GSK-3 has been the subject of much research since it has been implicated in a number of diseases, including type 2 diabetes, Alzheimer's disease, inflammation, cancer, addiction and bipolar disorder. "
11:14 < NewtonTrendy> I've been thinking, is it possible I actualy fabricated my sexuality deliberately in order to provide what people should be allowed to do more than honestly what I wanted because what I wanted most was for people to feel comfortable around one another. Sorry i think i had a breakthrough with my doctor, i couldnt understand why saying i felt selfish for taking those drugs wasnt working given
11:14 < NewtonTrendy> the context and I believe the answer to be much more related to care for me and wanting me to be able to have an easy life than i realised. I'm probably going to work on expressing that what i want to do might not be so rewarded in this life as a life of complete relaxation, but its serious satisfaction knowing what I might be able to change and it might mean more  after ive died  in context
11:14 < NewtonTrendy> I gave up a lot to say it, so I'm trying to express that I would like to be able to think with language in the exciting ways, making the connections that they think are mental symptoms but are more truely science at this point and they were truth all along. Do you know much about antipsychotics? Have I been changed alreadt?
11:14 < NewtonTrendy> where did i read about CHIR99021
11:15 < NewtonTrendy> nad.com Brenner goes on to say that the small molecules used in Sinclair’s study were previously discovered by other researchers as long as 15 years ago. Furthermore, Brenner told Dailymail.com that at least three of the molecules (CHIR99021, tranylcypromine, and valproic acid) may be harmful to humans.
11:15 < fenn> NewtonTrendy: please keep your psychodrama stuff out of this channel, it's not the right place for it
11:15 < NewtonTrendy> CHIR99021 blocks glycogen formation, which is activated during sleep to store energy - this is why we do not need to eat for hours at night.
11:16 < NewtonTrendy> my bad fenn
11:16 < NewtonTrendy> It was just in front of me
11:16 < fenn> the words practically type themselves
11:16  * fenn skims over a wall of text
11:17 < NewtonTrendy> if you see anything notable please feel free to comment, i'll still try to avoid doing it if it makes you uncomfortable
11:17 < fenn> thanks
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11:19 < NewtonTrendy> CHIR99021 blocks glycogen formation, which is activated during sleep to store energy - this is why we do not need to eat for hours at night. is from the https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-12295585/Harvard-claims-elixir-youth-biologists-expressed-concerns-claims.html
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11:20 < fenn> "Data showed no statistically meaningful difference at day 90 between those administered [CHIR99021 and valproic acid] versus those receiving placebo in the proportion of individuals that demonstrated an improvement in speech perception."
11:22 < NewtonTrendy> Brenner also highlighted tranylcypromine, which is an antidepressant, and valproic acid that is used to treat bipolar disorder and can harm the liver. also from daily mail sorry
11:24 < fenn> tranylcypromine inhibits CYP2A6, which may reduce the breakdown rate of valproic acid
11:39 < NewtonTrendy> fenn world salad just makes sense to me. and I want to start ##gibberish
11:39 < NewtonTrendy> night
11:44 < fenn> geneh2: Bob Coecke - category theory. ehh? small world
11:45 < fenn> was just looking at this yesterday, which uses a formalism similar to coecke's string diagrams to represent computations, called interaction nets https://higherorderco.com/
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11:53 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Debate/Ehrenreich.html
11:57 < fenn> "We are the dumbest species possible that still manages to coordinate and accumulate technology."
12:00 < fenn> "the biologizing of human beings" is a new one for me
12:01 < fenn> do they think humans are no biological?
12:01 < fenn> even sugar and spice and everything nice is biological
12:05 < fenn> darwin's ideas originated in malthusianism, what is now called social darwinism
12:05 < fenn> he wasn't even the only person to come up with evolution, it happened independently within a year, due to the stew of ideas floating around victorian england
12:06 < fenn> remember darwin was off in the middle of nowhere on a boat
12:34 < fenn> well this is a pretty gnarly bit of history, and the reason why the FDA regulates medical devices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalkon_Shield
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13:10 < fenn> a different kind of e-paper https://daylightcomputer.com/product
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14:47 < TMA> sounds like scam/vaporware
14:48 < fenn> could be
14:49 < fenn> i've been appalled at the lack of progress in e-ink over the decades
14:49 < fenn> we should have walls covered in the stuff by now
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17:41 < hprmbridge> Lev> I'd love the display, without pretty much the entire rest of their product tbh
17:41 < hprmbridge> Lev> the rest i'd be happier without
17:45 < hprmbridge> Eli> In my free time I've been creating educational videos for a new YouTube channel I call DarkModeBiohacking. I will be attempting to create evidence based videos on biohacking, on YouTube, that are accessible to the lay person. A lot of it will be a focus on sleep, diet, exercise, and general lifestyle modification. I have my pre-release first 5 min video on a cloud server which is set up so that
17:45 < hprmbridge> Eli> people can make comments. I can post a link if it's allowed in the channel? If not, I can send to people in DM if they want to check it out.
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--- Log closed Sat May 25 00:00:05 2024