--- Log opened Tue May 28 00:00:08 2024
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02:33 < fenn> NewtonTrendy: starting with the conclusion there
02:34 < fenn> people have been predicting malthusian disaster for hundreds of years now, and it hasn't happened
02:35 < fenn> maybe hold off on the global authoritarian dystopia for a bit
02:35 < fenn> til we get the mars colony up and running at least
02:37 < fenn> .units 1/2*(8km/s)^2*100kg in 55MJ
02:37 < saxo> 	1/2*(8km/s)^2*100kg = 58.181818 * 55MJ 	1/2*(8km/s)^2*100kg = (1 / 0.0171875) * 55MJ 
02:38 < fenn> so a human needs roughly their own mass in methane to get to orbit. from there we can use space based resources, which are effectively unlimited
02:38 < fenn> (58 kg of methane apparently)
02:39 < fenn> (90 kg of methane if you take into account drag and gravity losses)
03:34 < L29Ah> not really unlimited unless your time is unlimited
03:34 < L29Ah> since you need quite some propellant to get around and move things in a finite time
03:38 < L29Ah> also a global authoritarian government has an easier time finding and wiping you off the martian surface than, say, your clandestine base at the bottom of some ocean or in the antarctic glacier
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06:31 < kanzure_> hmph
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10:10 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> all space colonies will be extraordinarily authoritarian and/or hierarchical for a while
10:10 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> by while I mean centuries. this isn't necessarily bad but there is no libertarian dream there for you yet
11:52 < L29Ah> with efficient enough transportation you can make yourself a separate one
11:55 < L29Ah> drill a hole to hide from radiation, set up a recycling system for your shits and you're set up, a few tonnes worth of gadgets from Earth can keep you alive for some time to reconsider your life priorities in your martian dugout
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11:56 < L29Ah> s/to reconsider/for you &/
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13:42 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=bc140e1e Bryan Bishop: transcript: miners vs devs >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/bitcoin-network-longevity-summit/survey-responses/
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16:22 < NewtonTrendy> fenn: i think we would get to space easier if the people who were already trained in space science didnt keep dying, what makes it authoritarian?
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18:39 < fenn> NewtonTrendy: your system boils down to, "follow these rules, or die."
18:40 < fenn> also, there's no freedom or choice in determining the rules, or moving to a location with rules you prefer
18:45 < fenn> pinkbearer we could just not do that
18:46 < fenn> a highly automated built from scratch industrial ecology is something the human race has never done before. it seems like there will be a lot of unexpected resource contention, which is bad for a centrally planned economy
18:47 < fenn> people just say shit and expect me to believe it
19:02 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I think you are vastly overestimating the freedom available to isolated colonies on an inhospitable planet
19:04 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> are you assuming the existence of hypothetical tech? otherwise it makes no sense to say this. There is no libertarian frontier on mars, it requires massive capital to found colonies and will be the sole purview of powerful organizations
19:06 < fenn> companies like valve encourage internal movement and bottom-up priority making. there's nothing inherent in the structure of reality that forces you to have hierarchical top down control in a small resource constrained scenario
19:07 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> valve is also infamous for excruciatingly long and inefficient development cycles. you are not helping your point
19:08 < fenn> unlike your country of birth, you have a choice of which space colony to move to. they'll need to be appealing to the people they want to move there, which means giving them freedom
19:08 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> okay you're already assuming the existence of founded, self sustaining space colonies
19:08 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> i am not. I am assuming this is a barren wasteland and you are starting the first ones
19:08 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I see where the disrepancy emerged
19:08 < fenn> it could just be on paper, if there's a compelling enough story
19:09 < fenn> you said hundreds of years. i'm sure it won't take that long to bootstrap a mostly self supporting system
19:10 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I was thinking for geoengineering large enough spaces to really make inefficiency manageable
19:10 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> Without a margin of error you need strict top-down rules or things can go wrong very fast
19:11 < fenn> again, you're just saying shit
19:11 < fenn> why do you believe top-down control has anything to do with life support systems?
19:11 < fenn> or something else?
19:12 < fenn> bake margin into the production schedule
19:14 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> It's not the american frontier where just anyone can start up their own colony by living off the land. It will require rigorous maintenance and discipline or everyone/good portion dies. IMO you're the one just saying shit... outside of very, very small groups, this kind of organization just doesn't work very well at all.
19:15 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> The cards are in the air if we're talking down the line when established colonies and unknown technologies are available... but I'm not talking about that
19:15 < fenn> if we're talking about orbital colonies, there's the possibility of simply undocking your habitat and moving to another congregation of habitats
19:17 < fenn> L5 is a big place
19:18 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> I am not and never was talking about orbital habitats
19:18 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> In that case, maybe. Although you'd need an AI/fantastically skilled astronauts to maneuver an orbital habitat
19:18 < fenn> yawn
19:19 < hprmbridge> pinkbearer> yeah, fuck off. not talking with you anymore
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--- Log closed Wed May 29 00:00:09 2024