--- Log opened Tue Jun 18 00:00:28 2024
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07:04 < kanzure> "A possible mechanism of neural read-out from a molecular engram" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074742723000291
07:04 < kanzure> "What is the physical basis of declarative memory? The predominant view holds that stored information is embedded in the structure of a neural net, that is, in the signs and weights of its synaptic connections. An alternative possibility is that storage and processing are separated, and that the engram is encoded chemically, most probably in the sequence of a nucleic acid. One deterrent to ...
07:04 < kanzure> ...adoption of the latter hypothesis has been the difficulty of envisaging how neural actively could be converted to and from a molecular code. Our purpose here is limited to suggesting how a molecular sequence could be read out from nucleic acid to neural activity by means of nanopores."
07:05 < kanzure> and:
07:05 < kanzure> "In the models of Gallistel (2021) and of Akhlaghpour (2022), the storage and the processing are both performed at a molecular level. In a hybrid model, the storage – the passive engram – could be molecular while the cognitive manipulation of the material could be neural. In either case, the problem arises of how the conversion between neural and molecular representations is achieved. Our ...
07:06 < kanzure> ...purpose in this paper is limited to proposing a class of cellular mechanism that could read out a nucleic-acid code and generate a neural representation. The class of model we propose may not prove to correspond to reality, but the example serves to show that a biological read-out from a molecular engram to neural activity is certainly conceivable."
07:09 < kanzure> strange that they focus on nanopores rather than just a general argument of local gene expression modulating local neuron activity
07:13 < kanzure> "If engrams are the answer, what is the question?" https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/f6amv about the lack of alternative theories in neuroscience for memory engrams
07:34 < kanzure> glad that someone has broken down those questions appropriately, and section 4.4.iii is particularly interesting
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07:36 < kanzure> donahue 2010: "Evolved neural machinery has the function of introducing marks or traces into the brain as a result of experience,  but these marks have useful effects on behaviour without being read." (arguably expressed behavior is a form of reading and extracting information though...)
07:39 < nsh> the problem with engrams is the assumption that the data is stored locally, just because that's how we record and read things
07:39 < nsh> there's no place on the surface of a mirror where you nose is stored
07:42 < kanzure> that's like saying photons don't bounce off mirrors
07:42 < nsh> no it isn't
07:43 < nsh> there is something holographic at play
07:43 < nsh> the information spreads and the information refocusses again 
07:43 < kanzure> do you consider generative models to be holographic?
07:44 < nsh> sure, there isn't a particular place where a particular token in the output is born
07:44 < nsh> brb
07:47 < nsh> all of this is orthogonal to the degree that there might be molecular interactions involved. the way to think about this is consideration of the dynamics. is there time during the recognition of an feature visually for the requisite amount of information to be registered via molecular interaction
07:49 < nsh> of course the whole shebang is at play all of the time but how much at each scale of time for each kind of process will be correlated for the rapidity of information flow that process affords
07:58 < nsh> *with the
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08:38 < geneh2> well there is ARC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activity-regulated_cytoskeleton-associated_protein
08:39 < geneh2> neurons have been found to exchange RNA
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09:54 < nsh> geneh2, amongst one another?
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11:54 < kanzure> also https://gershmanlab.com/pubs/memory_synthesis.pdf
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13:58 < nsh> the contents of memory is experience
13:58 < nsh> the structure is the structure within which experience resonates
13:59 < nsh> the experiences are all in there, bouncing around, resonating as a complex waveform
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--- Log closed Wed Jun 19 00:00:28 2024