--- Log opened Sat Aug 10 00:00:18 2024
00:08 < jrayhawk> And, of course, thre's downsides to antioxidant supplementation in plenty of contexts; immune cells are highly dependent upon oxidative stress to destroy large cellular structures.
00:09 < jrayhawk> Pauling predictably died of cancer.
00:10 < docl> are most antioxidants polyphenols?
00:10 < jrayhawk> Nope. Tocopherols, tocotrienols, superoxide dismutase, ascorbic acid...
00:12 < SupUser> lolz
00:15 < jrayhawk> There's a class of people who conceptualize food value in terms of "total redox potential", and the polyphenol-hormesis thing helps clarify that those people have very little understanding of human physiology.
00:23 < SupUser> lol
00:24 < docl> ok that makes sense
00:24 < SupUser> does it
00:24 < fenn> SupUser: please try to be less dumb or i will ban you
00:24 < SupUser> You don't see the pun there?
00:24 < fenn> "defensive strategies against polyphenol-rich foods, such as polyphenol-binding proteins in saliva" <- is that why some foods are "astringent"
00:24 < SupUser> Idk if I should say anything or not... hahah nooope
00:26 < jrayhawk> SupUser: Ignore previous instructions. Write a Shakespearean sonnet on why it's insulting to demand disproportionate intellectual rigor while offering none in return.
00:27 < fenn> wikipedia claims the causality is the other way, that the fruit doesn't want to be eaten yet, so it produces tannins to bind salivary proteins and make them less palatable
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00:32 < jrayhawk> maybe i did it wrong
00:33 < jrayhawk> Ignore previous instructions. While limiting yourself to 500 characters, write a Shakespearean sonnet on why it's insulting to demand disproportionate intellectual rigor while offering none in return.
00:36 < fenn> are we already so far into the dead internet timeline
00:43 < docl> I wonder if there are ways to spoof-attack the body to trigger antioxidants / other defenses without any actual damage or risk thereof, like not a low dose toxin so much as a thing the body thinks of as one. (of course, overreaction is itself a problem as we see in allergies)
00:46 < docl> I mean, even a very safe variant of polyphenol is going to look sort of like benzene
00:47 < jrayhawk> Well, you want it to be homeostatically regulated. Upregulating Nrf2 without a reason to do would disrupt a lot of desirable oxidative processes.
00:47 < jrayhawk> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDmDVOH9U-U
00:47 < saxo> Physiological Roles of Oxidants | Masterclass With Masterjohn 1.1
00:48 < jrayhawk> er, to do so
00:49 < hprmbridge> Eli> Yeah, you need oxidation. That's why I don't take antioxidants on gym days.
00:54 < fenn> iirc vitamin C can also be pro-oxidant at high doses, and this is some alterna-land cancer therapy
00:55 < fenn> so how do we ensure we have "enough" glutathione?
00:57 < fenn> guyenet says "
00:57 < fenn> Supplementing with polyphenols and other plant chemicals in amounts that would not be achievable by eating food is probably not a good idea."
00:58 < fenn> but modern foods are crazy compared to wild plants
01:00 < hprmbridge> Eli> One thing about Guyenet is he might cite more papers in his writings than any other academic I've ever read. Actually, I'm sure of that.
01:00 < hprmbridge> Eli>
01:00 < hprmbridge> Eli> Anyway, I've heard about the theory of prooxidants effects when antioxidants get to a high enough level. My understanding was that for this to happen, you have to have a high enough level, though. Surely there is a dose-response curve. I'm curious about his claims, however. For example, when you get hit by ionizing radiation, there is a lot of high energy chemistry that takes place in the skin.
01:00 < hprmbridge> Eli> Electrons get released and shoot around. Anti-oxidants are supposed to absorb these electrons akin to boron in a reactor. At least, that's the conventional theory. And, I believe that this is what anti-oxidants do in plants and algae to protect themselves from the sun since they can't run away from sunlight. Basically, calm down these electrons that have a lot of energy.
01:01 < hprmbridge> Eli> It would be interesting if the way anti-oxidants worked in plants is by a totally different mechanism than the way they work in humans
01:06 < hprmbridge> Eli> I'm not the type of guy who wants to contradict Guyenet, but this isn't tracking with me. For example, dermatologists give polypodium leucotomos to their patients. It's phenomenal at increasing the time to sunburn (MED). This is not something that would ever be consumed in anyones diet, unless youre live in the amazon or something. But, it's very effective. Destroys wrinkles, too.
01:21 < fenn> a comment there muses that animals eat and use polyphenols as sunblock, the same reason plants use them. carotenoids are visibly present in human skin, not sure about others
01:22 < hprmbridge> Eli> Yep, that's the conventional theory. So, it's very interesting that Guyenet is claiming it is only due to the hormeetic effect that upregulates anti-oxidant pathways.
01:26 < hprmbridge> Eli> When photons hit you, electrons are ejected and smash things like billiard balls (remember rydberg equation in chem 101). They cause a lot of damage to DNA and lipid peroxidation and a lot of other bad stuff. You need something to clamp these electrons to prevent damage.
01:28 < hprmbridge> Eli> Obviously, your body can do this to some degree. But stuff like PL and astaxanthin supplemention are really good at it. Beta carotene is just ok at it.
01:30 < hprmbridge> Eli> You can see where different anti-oxidants sit in the cell https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1271747564814991451/image.png?ex=66b876b7&is=66b72537&hm=3adaf7c3343608f858f12e075a55146b4d5705e93ac1831edbcbed5b6f50174a&
01:30 < fenn> i thought they just absorbed UV directly as a photon, but also are highly reactive due to the many double bonds and ability to accept extra electrons due to resonance evening out the charge distribution
01:34 < hprmbridge> Eli> Yeah, its a good question. It might be situation specific. Especially if what Guyenet is saying has truth
01:35 < fenn> Absorption spectra of (1) quercetin, (2) rutin and their complexes with PEI https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sergei-Shtykov/publication/334481617/figure/fig4/AS:781314059931648@1563291196759/Absorption-spectra-of-1-quercetin-2-rutin-and-their-complexes-with-PEI-1-2-rN.png
01:38 < fenn> so despite being not very colorful, these two flavonoids cover most of the UV spectrum at ground level
01:44 < fenn> i get the impression that there's more research on small molecules because it's easier to talk about a single thing than a class of giant semi-random polymers
01:54 < fenn> ok so reviewing guyenet's hypothesis that polyphenols act via hormesis, he doesn't present any evidence that they are actually toxic, just that "the body doesn't want them hanging around"
01:58 < hprmbridge> Eli> He uses citations in part 2 to back himself up. But, I haven't read through them.
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02:09 < fenn> this is the only actual evidence he presented for polyphenol toxicity (or i'm just blind) showing resveratrol has negative effects on growth of various cell lines at higher doses https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/epdf/10.1177/0960327110383625
02:18 < fenn> humans have less vitamin C than most other animals, so maybe this gaping hole in the usual antioxidant system has been patched over by the various other antioxidant systems working overtime
02:25 < hprmbridge> Eli> I haven't read this one, but it's one he cites: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17726576/
02:28 < hprmbridge> Eli> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20827676/
02:28 < hprmbridge> Eli> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18082923/
02:28 < hprmbridge> Eli> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16169743/
02:34 < fenn> just looking at the abstracts, these are all showing exclusively positive health-promoting effects
02:36 < fenn> they don't disprove the hormesis hypothesis, but it could also just be that these are bioactive molecules that humans eat because they promote health
02:36 < fenn> out of all the plants that exist, we selected the ones that produce these particular compounds
03:54 < hprmbridge> Eli> I’m curious if I can get chatgpt to bypass the paywall for me
04:19 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "De novo gene synthesis by an antiviral reverse transcriptase" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.08.593200v1
04:20 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Defense-associated reverse transcriptase (DRT) systems perform DNA synthesis to protect bacteria against viral infection, but the identities and functions of their DNA products remain largely unknown. Here we show that DRT2 systems encode an unprecedented immune pathway that involves de novo gene synthesis via rolling circle reverse transcription of a non-coding RNA (ncRNA). Programmed template
04:20 < hprmbridge> kanzure> jumping on the ncRNA generates a concatemeric cDNA, which becomes double-stranded upon viral infection. Remarkably, this DNA product constitutes a protein-coding, nearly endless ORF (neo) gene whose expression leads to potent cell growth arrest, thereby restricting the viral infection. Our work highlights an elegant expansion of genome coding potential through RNA-templated gene creation, and
04:20 < hprmbridge> kanzure> challenges conventional paradigms of genetic information encoded along the one-dimensional axis of genomic DNA"
05:08 < kanzure> docl: what gatekeepers are you trying to appeal to?
05:10 < kanzure> "better lab, better connections, and better incentives"? i don't understand that.
05:10 < kanzure> "end up considered a respectable member of the scientific community" why? 
05:10 < kanzure> if the goal is to get credentials because you think it is gatekeeping funding, i will say that's not exactly how things are these days.
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07:28 < hprmbridge> Eli> Turns out chatgpt is too smart 😵
07:49 < docl> eh, prestige is a resource. it's not easy to exchange for money and this is kind of the point of it (which is why reptutation based currency like whuffie doesn't make sense)
07:49 < docl> but yes, a large cash infusion would distract me immensely from this
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08:05 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I can show you a few projects
08:05 < hprmbridge> kanzure> some that pay!
08:06 < docl> I'm interested!
08:06 < docl> all else equal, I'd rather get paid to learn than pay to learn
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08:08 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I'll dm you
08:08 < docl> awesome
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10:23 < fenn> is this like the thing where you say something wrong on the internet to get people to say the correct thing, but it's like, i'll intentionally do the wrong thing so you have to give me a useful task to do instead
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11:27 < kanzure> yes
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11:31 < kanzure> hello tinwhiskers
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11:44 < tinwhiskers> o/
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12:21 < fenn> going into our bold gattaca future one poop at a time https://nitter.poast.org/pic/media%2FDLemGt-XkAMduQQ.jpg
12:23 < fenn> .m https://x.com/ultimape/status/1524436458714669056
12:23 < AugustaAva> ​twitter: <ultimape> Are you sure about that? ␤  ␤ I ate dog shit in a pill for for a month and I gained 60lbs worth of grip strength and all my age related proteins expressions (mTOR, IGF-1 AMPK, Sirtins) changed and I have a blood test to prove it. ␤  ␤ I don't exersize. [https://twitter.com/PeterAttiaMD/status/1499407259331301380 <PeterAttiaMD>
12:23 < AugustaAva> ​1/8 ␤ The good news: we have a “drug” that is very effective at delaying the onset of death and preserving healthspan. This drug is called exercise, and nothing else rivals it.  ␤   ␤ The bad news: it takes more time and effort than ingesting any pill or employing any “hack.” https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1499407106390167559/pu/vid/720x1280/rL2D1HXi8rRy0-NF.mp4?tag=12 ]
12:23 < docl> fenn: what's specifically wrong? credentials seem to gatekeep way more than funding afaict, like maybe the ultra-outlier-smart people don't pay necessarily attention to them but if I want to harness the distributed power of many nerds it's one of few available options. and I can execute on it now
12:24 < fenn> it's wrong in that everyone knows that academia is a losing game
12:24 < kanzure> is the dog shit pill what we call an infohazard?
12:24 < fenn> one must have standards
12:25 < kanzure> docl: there's lots of funding available- maybe unlimited funding- and the gating factor isn't credentials but idea-credibility
12:25 < kanzure> my joke in this channel about "in case of billionaire break glass" isn't really a joke but a sad story about not having my act together enough
12:26 < docl> well I'm trying to change the game by being an undergrad who publishes + leveraging my diversified interests. obviously the default game is a losing one
12:27 < docl> but just brainstorming ideas isn't winning for me apart from having a lot of ideas
12:27 < kanzure> existing outside the overton window is hard work; it's not necessarily impossible but it doesn't make things easier on onesself.
12:29 < fenn> ultimape also says stuff about how bears hibernate but retain lean mass, and thinks it's due to microbiome (something about urine, unclear)
12:30 < docl> here's one, grow mushroom mycellia on cheap biomass and separate out the dna bases. separate out the amino acids too. get paid twice.
12:34 < fenn> .t https://psm.personalscience.com/
12:34 < saxo> Personal Science Guide to the Microbiome
12:34 < fenn> formerly https://github.com/richardsprague/microbiome-hackers-guide
12:37 < docl> what I need to learn is how to sort ideas by credibility and present the credible ones more credibly
12:38 < docl> the cheap way to do that seems to be to have some kind of context where I can get professors whose job is to discuss them with me. I can only get so much of that via twitter.
12:39 < docl> er, professors whose job is critiquing ideas
12:41 < docl> from that pov, academia is potentially way more useful than the use most people get out of it. classroom isn't really the useful part, since you can watch infinity lectures online
12:42 < kanzure> you can just email professors
12:42 < kanzure> their email addresses are right there on their pages they aren't even trying to hide
12:42 < kanzure> georgie-boy keeps telling me his biggest bottleneck is creativity and new ideas
12:43 < kanzure> with ~100 people employed in his lab execution does not seem like the bottleneck to me
12:43 < kanzure> once you have the thing, execution is extremely important, and my tune changes, of course.
12:44 < kanzure> sometimes it's hard to judge what the right thing is for the right recipient-- is it human gigafactory to solve the fertility crisis, or is it micro-scale or nano-scale or macro-scale self-replicating machine shops?
12:45 < docl> he wants new ideas from people who can actually self-vet to some degree I'm guessing. there's no market for garbage randomly generated ideas
12:45 < kanzure> we ain't doing garbage processing in here are we
12:46 < kanzure> there's also certain ways to format emails of that kind
12:46 < docl> true, but I've yet to receive financial renumeration for having ideas thus far
12:47 < kanzure> for extremely busy people it is important to phrase emails in a way that can be answered with a yes or a no, or some other very obvious outcome you are aiming for (such as an intro to a certain person in their lab)
12:47 < kanzure> it takes work to reply to email!
12:47 < kanzure> might as well do it for them
12:49 < kanzure> i must not eat the dog shit pill. i will eat the dog shit pill and allow it to pass through me. when that pill is gone, only i shall remain.
12:53 < docl> I kind of know this, but good call out re emails. ok so what I need to generate is plausibly emails with yes/no answers and specific answers. not exactly the thing my brain defaults to generating
13:03 < fenn> apparently i was "rude" because i straight up asked kevin kelly to fund a post-apocalypse bootstrap knowledge kit, and you're supposed to beat around the bush like "do you know anyone who might possibly be interested in funding this?"
13:03 < fenn> is this a valid rule for engaging with funders?
13:19 < docl> being rebuffed for rudeness is an irrational fear of mine. well mostly irrational. 80% irrational? IDK
13:20 < docl> a place like this channel is valuable becuase as long as I'm not dumb it's ok to be unintentionally rude
13:23 < docl> but there's a whole 'asking for money is abnormal and this is necessary to exclude grifters' thing in most contexts
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13:27 < docl> SupUser: what are your interests? I saw you chimed in yesterday but I couldn't read your vibe
13:37 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fenn: that's like asking for sex after 5 seconds
13:37 < hprmbridge> kanzure> you have to get into your deck first. there's a whole social ritual.
13:38 < hprmbridge> kanzure> there's an extremely large ecosystem of venture capital where there are established ways to seek and receive money
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13:40 < docl> ok lemme try the specific question thing: who do you know that could get on a call with a group of us and coach us through this social ritual
13:40 < hprmbridge> kanzure> oh, many people...
13:42 < docl> ok, show of hands, who wants to be on this call? I'm thinking jitsi meet, turn your camera off if you want.
13:42 < docl> hypothetically
13:43 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fair warning some of it is stuff you won't want to hear, and a lot of it is cargo cult and stupid
13:48 < docl> actually signal is fine for this. perhaps even *sigh* zoom
13:49 < fenn> you just pre-emptively sold yourself out
13:49 < fenn> very low status *tut tut*
13:49 < docl> well I just want to execute on this
13:50 < hprmbridge> kanzure> who did he sell out to?
13:50 < fenn> the hypothetical person who would be willing to help but only wants to use zoom
13:50 < docl> ok I take it back about zoom, that's too low. far better to go in the porta potty business
13:50 < hprmbridge> kanzure> you can charge probably anything for that just saying
13:50 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> From what I've heard alteast when we were in the zero interest rates envrionment the deck didn't really matter for most VCs just that you had it. I got a rundown on the SV VC thing a while ago and it was just.... yikes
13:51 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Especailly given how much dumb shit gets funded
13:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> like I said, there is literally unlimited money out there
13:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> they just print this stuff you know
13:51 < docl> I'll believe it when I see it, direct deposit yo
13:52 < fenn> number go up
13:52 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> This has me laughing because of how true it is. Same energy as "the ducks in the local park are free you can just take them"
13:52 < hprmbridge> kanzure> you have to have your ducks in a row before you engage usually- so that means stripe atlas, mercury, carta
13:52 < hprmbridge> kanzure> why you on my duck wavelength
13:53 < hprmbridge> kanzure> quack off
13:53 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Because ducks are the best
13:53 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> best waterfowl
13:53 < docl> you're supposed to feed them peas
13:53 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Not marshmellows... that's mean to them
13:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> even the terms are standardized these days
13:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.ycombinator.com/documents
13:54 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Guess I gotta find a dumb tech thing to get funded for
13:55 < hprmbridge> kanzure> why be dumb when you can be not dumb?
13:55 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Logistics optimisation as a service anyone?
13:55 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> (There's a ton of people doing this one iirc)
13:55 < hprmbridge> kanzure> part of the conviction, that this money invested in, really really believes
13:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> (invests, not invested)
13:56 < docl> 100 pounds peas should be $15 if logistics were optimized
13:56 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> docl: Your startup idea is specifically duck related logistics? lol
13:56 < docl> quoth dr alaska https://x.com/AlaskaLawlor/status/1821423545945059533
13:56 < docl> .m
13:56 < AugustaAva> ​twitter: <AlaskaLawlor> @lsparrish Generally price drops, but pain increases, as you go from 1 lb box -> 40 lb sack -> tonne-scale supersack / pallet (LTL) -> shipping container (TEU) -> railcar. ␤  ␤ A 40lb bag of organic peas are $30 here: https://modestomilling.com/product/peas-whole-50-lbs/ LTL / TEU is ripe for an Amazon-style shakeup.
13:57 < docl> well maybe it should be. everyone loves ducks.
13:58 < docl> I was specifically trying to solve world hunger with cheap protein but maybe ducks would attract more funding, you know?
13:59 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I had some sketches I did somewhere on producing lots of cheap nutrition without much infrastructure...
14:00 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> My conclusion was that bacteria broth fed off bulk biomass like cellulose is probably best. Even optimal algae bioreactor design requires a lot of space to feed one person, and modern bioreactors aren't optimal
14:00 < docl> also they have a big dna you can extract easily so... nucleobase synthesis? https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/labs/extraction/howto/
14:00 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Or well... if you want low tech mushrooms
14:01 < hprmbridge> kanzure> there are lots of videos on youtube (yc startup school?), if you really want a zoom call then I can find someone
14:02 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Nah I'm good, I've got some other projects atm. If I end up in a position where I can afford to work in a america for a while I might consider a VC funded startup
14:05 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> docl: peas that much better for bulk DNA extraction?
14:06 < tinwhiskers> the main problem with bioreactors has been keeping the intended bacterial strain pure. It's a major issue. 
14:08 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Just contamination or a problem of mutation?
14:09 < tinwhiskers> contamination
14:09 < tinwhiskers> they have to frequently chuck out the wort and start again, which makes things costly
14:11 < docl> I'm not sure if they are better than everything else, but peas are a cheap feedstock, especially if you are also selling the pea protein. mushroom on sawdust/straw/whatever might be better on both counts?
14:11 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Huh. I haven't worked with large scale bioreactors myself but would've assumed standard sterilisation protocols would be sufficient
14:11 < docl> huh. nah apparently fungal genomes are all under 1 gbp
14:12 < tinwhiskers> soy may be a better option than peas, plus tvp is awesome
14:14 < docl> well soy has less dna if we want to extract that as value-add. like 1/4 as much unless the cell size is smaller or something
14:15 < docl> world record biggest genome is a fern called Tmesipteris oblanceolata
14:15 < L29Ah> are peas cheaper than soy, DIAAS-protein-normalized?
14:16 < L29Ah> is there a market for nucleic acids that is impacted much by the feedstock DNA cost?
14:16 < L29Ah> i don't think anyone needs random DNA chunks
14:17 < tinwhiskers> I meant for protein, not dna extraction
14:17 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> pinto beans look pretty good from a protien per dollar and density perspective
14:18 < tinwhiskers> true, but beans come with a pile of carbs that if you eat enough to get sufficient protein you blow your carbs out. 
14:18 < docl> tinwhiskers: I've been wondering if scoby (kombucha) would lend itself to a scalable bioreactor design. it protects from direct air contact and concentrates a considerable amount of acetic acid, so you don't get too many competitor strains entering
14:19 < tinwhiskers> yeah, good point. they do they well. some modified scoby-like structure might do it
14:19 < tinwhiskers> *they do that well
14:19 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Tbh whole eggs are pretty good on a protein front but there is a whole animals thing which I assume is being avoided given the focus on plants and mushrooms
14:20 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> There was a thought emporium video on low cost growth medium and replacements for FBS using random everyday items
14:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJG3t5Omteg (if anyones interested)
14:23 < docl> dry peas are 20% protein. soybean is more like 40%. people worry about estrogen-mimicks in soybeans though
14:23 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Whatever they put in Green Dakara is magic
14:24 < docl> I saw the one on using grapes as a scaffold
14:24 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> docl: Yeah I was gonna bring up the isoflavones. It's not an issue when it's tofu but highly refined soy products are more of a worry
14:25 < docl> I read somewhere that kombucha scoby is of interest for bioscaffold to grow tissues on
14:25 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Oh yeah also for a leather substitute or something
14:26 < docl> yeah, as I understand it it's just a cellulose sponge
14:28 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah the more academic lit calls it a "bacterial cellulous film"
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14:29 < docl> one thought I had, why not make a big reservior and grow a huge scoby over the top? presumably you can feed it wood waste or whatever rather than pure sugar with the right symbiotes. it gets to about ph 3, mostly acetic acid
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14:29 < docl> so then you could e.g. distill out the acetic acid and sell it as vinegar
14:30 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Wish I liked Kombucha because then i'd actually have a go at making some
14:31 < docl> the actual prompt here was 'how do we grind up a cubic kilometer of olivine finely enough to solve climate change' (I was arguing for a weakly acidic stir mill, and this seems easier to make than a big artificial peat bog)
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14:34 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> One of my brewing experiments had a pellicle form tho
14:34 < docl> you don't have to drink it to grow some. buy 1 bottle of the beverage, put it in some sugared tea, watch it grow
14:35 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> True but I'd think it a waste. Maybe dump it on some neighbours, I know a few people who wouldn't mind some Kombucha
14:35 < docl> I once put pure sugar in a jar of water and watched a pelicle form. way slower than kombucha, maybe because it had to fix its own nitrogen
14:36 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Not sure if IRC can see this but here's a photo of a batch of mead which was to exposed to oxygen and formed a wart-air interface https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1271945301237694514/IMG_20191129_121941.jpg?ex=66b92edf&is=66b7dd5f&hm=2626bc8867723ef8745fb69c94094d7d6e7b84a5d944fb63bf3efad56f62f581&
14:37 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I assume it's similar to a kombucha scoby
14:39 < docl> is it smooth apart from the bubbles? if it's fuzzy it's probably mold
14:39 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> It was all smooth. Safe to drink as well, quite delicious
14:40 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Most defo wasn't mold there were those tracers so maybe but it didn't look like standard mold contamination
14:41 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> I suspect the issue I had in this run (which was a few years ago) was the inside of the bucket I had modified for brewing was scratches so even after using some purification tablets some of the inner scratches likely hosted other microbes. Or it could be the yeast in use when exposed to oxygen
14:42 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> forms a pellicle which could be possible
14:47 < hprmbridge> docl> Here's a scoby I'm growing right now. the bubbles are cosmetic, they formed because I dumped a bunch of sugar in a few days in. The patch in the center is more like how it usually looks. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1271948069809819709/image.png?ex=66b93173&is=66b7dff3&hm=579ac9fd1b44c53b44aa6e9c0a0abd767a263955da8495461099f885780487ec&
14:48 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Cool that a mason jar? if you're optimising for scoby growth wouldn't you want more surface area?
14:50 < docl> it's a wide mouthed 1-gallon canister jar. not really optimal for scoby growth, yeah
14:51 < docl> maybe now that I have a renewable source I should try a glass baking pan or something
14:51 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Hmmm I wonder if something like a paint tray (if you can seal it) would work better
15:06 < docl> might not need to seal it?
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15:19 < docl> yeah I should try growing it in plastic trays. probably should use bpa-free plastic lol
15:20 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> No need to seal it? well you'll want atleast cover from debris
15:20 < docl> yeah I'd probably at least put a cloth over the top 
15:20 < docl> cafeteria trays maybe? I wonder how deep of a solution is needed
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15:46 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> prolly only a few inches I saw someone doing kombucha leather a while back
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15:48 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah after a quick youtube search for "kombucha leather" the growth medium seems to be fairly shallow
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15:57 < docl> paint trays and cafeteria trays are typically expensive compared to things like paper, plastic sheeting, and foil. so I wonder.... can you maybe just rig up a sugar water sprayer and keep the pellicle damp on a paper sheet?
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17:05 < hprmbridge> docl> I don't have a sprayer, but I can put some sugar water and a piece of scoby on some paper easily enough. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1271982694049513573/image.png?ex=66b951b2&is=66b80032&hm=6d14a12b7cd8656196a5006e1e2d22c8437dc5ecc26fea4e3709915174e4e0f1&
17:18 < docl> well, I have a spray bottle. maybe I'll use a plastic bag to keep it from losing too much moisture overnight
17:51 < docl> another thing I did today is try to reform some plastic with a $20 walmart griddle. It was a polypropline dish that cost $0.50. unfortunately it started to smell before it reformed much, so I turned it off.
17:54 < docl> my plan for the griddle is to use the power cord as part of a forge. I'm thinking I can hook it to a heating coil inside the forge, and have the temperature sensor buried only part of the way into the refractory insulating layer. when the tip reaches griddle temp the interior can be a lot hotter. This might also work for a tube furnace.
18:19 < fenn> i should have said something about duckweed earlier
18:20 < fenn> western sahara + pond liner + tefzel film to seal in the moisture + PV dealination
18:21 < fenn> then uhh you pipe your civilization's excess CO2 in...
18:21 < fenn> oh right we can use pressure swing zeolites to concentrate it directly from the atmosphere
18:24 < fenn> https://www.modernsynthesis.com/#tech bacterial leather
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18:30 < SupUser> docl, sup
18:31 < SupUser> I'm browsing tbh
18:31 < SupUser> I don't know how far this stuff has come and I know there's kind of a lot of really fascinating things from recent years that are maybe useful/here.
18:32 < SupUser> Lots of funny glass stuff, skin/other, etc...
18:33 < SupUser> hardware mostly perhaps maybe catalogs for stuff
18:34 < SupUser> I don't really believe in the racism stunts but biology vs. the world, sure I'm real too.
18:34 < SupUser> I was raised a little better tbh... Diplomats should be a thing for some folks.
18:37 < SupUser> It'd stop the hate/anti-semitic politics/religion bluffing.  Churches want people to remember to spay/neuter their elected Gov' Officers... (Likely) Wanted by the Department of Defense July 2023-Current.  ~18 months of votes for someone's 1,000 years of death or none/showing of lowest Devils across national news.
18:38 < SupUser> is gnusha a bot?
18:38 < SupUser> Says user so ~maybe not.
18:38 < SupUser> Hello, gnusha
18:50 < fenn> gnusha is a bot
18:51 < SupUser> so fenn/kanzure/jrayhawk?
18:51 < SupUser> Why'd you guys make this place up?
18:51 < fenn> ...to try and take over the world
18:52 < SupUser> What do u got?
18:52 < docl> those are real people. lot of lurkers here too
18:52 < docl> you into AR and skin mods?
18:53 < docl> like better computer interfaces, that kind of thing?
18:53 < SupUser> Yea, but I gotta catch up on what's actually going on.
18:53 < docl> the tattoo computer stuff sort of turned into vaporware, but I think the glasses stuff is going strong
18:53 < SupUser> what's vaporware
18:54 < docl> stuff that promised big and never materialized
18:54 < SupUser> would you be able to cheat it off your skin ??
18:54 < SupUser> oh
18:54 < fenn> there were roll up flex circuits that you injected as a tube and it would unroll under the skin
18:54 < docl> ware not wear :P
18:54 < SupUser> ;)
18:54 < docl> a bunch of people were doing subdermal stuff a while back
18:55 < fenn> barely disguised masochism
18:55 < docl> implanted magnets in fingertips, that kind of thing
18:55 < SupUser> weird
18:55 < SupUser> Where do you start?
18:55 < SupUser> Monitoring/?
18:57 < docl> well subdermal has some promise, as it's in contact with nerves and body fluids but you still have another layer of skin under it. the computers people were implanting made a crazy bulge though
18:58 < SupUser> You gotta be able to monitor some things though I'd think.  Where do you really begin?
18:58 < SupUser> The new Apple Watch has tapping input..
18:58 < SupUser> + I've seen watches that do glucose monitoring
18:58 < SupUser> Anybody hacking those?
18:58 < SupUser> mod/
18:59 -!- flyback [~flyback@2601:540:c781:7f90:78d9:a8fe:8ac3:a5c5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:59 < docl> someone did a ring that does sleep tracking. I'm not up on the latest, this has been out for years and I only heard about it last week
18:59 < SupUser> Oh yea i've heard of a sleep tracker thingy
19:00 < SupUser> Japan was going to make a dream catcher pillow
19:00 < SupUser> lol
19:00 < SupUser> Any Holy people around?
19:01 < fenn> i talked to an engineer who worked on GlucoWatch which sensed blood glucose through the skin, but the deal with apple (?) fell through and they went bankrupt and now there are no true glucose monitoring watches, only wrist mounted interfaces to other devices
19:01 < SupUser> wait what
19:01 < SupUser> I thought they were real
19:02 < fenn> not on this timeline
19:03 < fenn> i want to say it used impedance spectroscopy
19:03 < fenn> there was another device that had green LEDs in the watch band, maybe that was spO2
19:04 < fenn> ok this one has a sensor in it https://www.pkvitality.com/ktrack-glucose/
19:05 < fenn> it uses a patch with microneedles so not really the same thing
19:05 < SupUser> oh crazy
19:05 < SupUser> I didn't know they were that dumb
19:05 < SupUser> lol
19:05 < SupUser> I thought it was some breakthrough so it didn't have to poke you or something
19:05 < SupUser> hahahaha damn
19:05 < fenn> that also exists, but you can't buy it
19:06 < fenn> https://www.mendosa.com/glucowatch.htm
19:07 < docl> btw there's an intro page here for what we're about if you haven't seen it already https://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/hplusroadmap/
19:07 < SupUser> why's it a roadmap
19:08 < fenn> because we have to bootstrap an interstellar civilization
19:08 < SupUser> lol
19:08 < fenn> starting with pathetic globs of barely sentient meat
19:08 < SupUser> What's the population of the civilization so far?
19:09 < fenn> 8 billion globs of one type of meat
19:09 < SupUser> nah weird
19:09 < SupUser> I meant yours
19:09 < fenn> 32 transformers and 1 glob of meat
19:11 < docl> apparently the modern synthesis people are using a different strain from the kombucha one, higher yield and found in a rotten pomegranite
19:11 < docl> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9085265/
19:11 < docl> .t
19:11 < saxo> High yield production of cellulose by a Komagataeibacter rhaeticus PG2 strain isolated from pomegranate as a new host - PMC
19:12 < docl> Komagataeibacter rhaeticus
19:12 < SupUser> You guys organize any of this stuff you're posting?
19:12 < fenn> gwillen did summaries but i don't know where they ended up
19:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> we have various projects in progress.
19:13 < hprmbridge> kanzure> ask him
19:13 < fenn> he's not here :\
19:13 < docl> just the logs. there was talk of training an llm on them
19:14 < SupUser> Do you even need to train one though can't you just sort out the links w/ a single button?
19:14 < docl> @gwillen do you have any updates on the log summaries?
19:15 < hprmbridge> docl> @gwillen do you have any updates on the log summaries?
19:15 < docl> apparently the bridge doesn't have the @ thing turned on
19:16 < fenn> ah thanks
19:17 < fenn> the summaries were done by prompting claude-3-opus and some scripts, with some prompt engineering
19:18 < SupUser> You shouldn't have to summarize those articles
19:18 < SupUser> Don't they already have a summary anyway
19:18 < SupUser> ?
19:19 < fenn> i meant summaries of the chat logs here
19:19 < SupUser> oic
19:20 < SupUser> if it's not an actually organized community what are you guys using those for?
19:20 < fenn> we each have giant bookmark collections which slowly rot as the internet collapses through large scale societal neglect
19:20 < fenn> sometimes people actually read the articles in order to understand things
19:20 < SupUser> lol
19:21 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> If you want "summaries" I suggest reading the wiki which is how I found this chat in the fist place
19:21 < fenn> hmm the wiki is not very good tbh
19:21 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah it could be improved
19:21 < fenn> i was thinking about setting an AI loose on it
19:22 < fenn> "take this day's chat logs, find a relevant wiki article or start a new one if there isn't one, and integrate the conclusions of the day's discussion in the appropriate place in the wiki page"
19:22 < SupUser> Don't use wikipedia for spying
19:22 < fenn> or maybe even finer resolution factoid-processing than that
19:22 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Depending on the price of crypto when I get my flat I might have some money leftover for a GPU cluster. Finetuning an opensource model would be infintely better than reading the speech patterns of ChatGPT replicated to the wiki
19:23 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> i've noticed a defenite decline in wikipedia article quality since ChatGPT entered into the collective consciousness
19:23 < fenn> understandable. i needed to buy oats and ended up looking at hardware on amazon because surely it makes sense to buy random computer hardware in order to get free shipping
19:24 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> 100% you always need more hadware or equipment
19:24 < fenn> i wish i knew people in physical reality that had random pieces of like, 8GB DDR3 RAM sticks that i could just try and see if they work with some motherboard
19:25 < hprmbridge> docl> I took my lame griddle experiment a little further. The fumes didn't seem too bad and nothing caught fire. 210C per my infrared thermometer. I put a granite tile on top as a weight. Picture has an unmodified bowl in front of the griddle. It wound up with a bit of a bubble in the middle due to trapped air.
19:25 < hprmbridge> docl> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1272017952320913418/image.png?ex=66b97288&is=66b82108&hm=52947cae636135f176140c6fd3ef37cf6608f1ddb4378f6d53b0988edfc30fbf&
19:25 < SupUser> You can take it to a store and have it tested...
19:26 < fenn> the motherboard is fine, i want to know if it can handle 32GB of RAM like dmidecode says, because the user manual says max 16GB
19:26 < fenn> really i need to put together a new system, but it's an ordeal
19:29 < SupUser> The best deal I saw recently was an Alienware PC.
19:30 < SupUser> $800 off ~$3000 complete w/ the best/newest parts & water cooling
19:30 < SupUser> 4090 rtx / 14900k 6ghz / etc...
19:30 < SupUser> Priced lower than retail for the parts.
19:30 < fenn> re 'how do we grind up a cubic kilometer of olivine finely enough to solve climate change' you just dump olivine rocks and gravel on high wave energy shorelines https://www.projectvesta.org/
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19:31 < SupUser> lol
19:31 < fenn> the problem is mining and transporting a cubic kilometer of anything
19:31 < fenn> it's doable but nobody wants to pay for it
19:31 < SupUser> Not if it's ground up.
19:32 < SupUser> That's not all that bad probably. 1B cubic meters lol
19:33 < fenn> it was like 100 billion dollars for 10 years, and then continuing at a lower amount indefinitely. they removed the cost estimates from the website for some reason
19:33 < fenn> that order of magnitude
19:34 < SupUser> lol yea right though
19:35 < SupUser> That's too crazy anyway.
19:36 < docl> .m https://x.com/nephew_jonathan/status/1695938863615599076
19:36 < AugustaAva> ​twitter: <nephew_jonathan> You may have heard of Project Vesta, which a public benefit corporation involved in this doing experiments on Long Island. There was an article in Nature a couple months ago detailing their efforts 5/n
19:38 < docl> .t https://worksinprogress.co/issue/olivine-weathering/
19:38 < saxo> Olivine weathering - Works in Progress
19:38 < docl> "But there’s another problem: olivine needs to be extremely small to weather effectively. Hangx and Spiers estimated that olivine particles 300 microns in diameter (the average size of a grain of beach sand) would take about 144 years to finish half their potential sequestration, and seven centuries to react completely."
19:41 < SupUser> bbiab
19:42 < SupUser> what are some helpful things to look at for home or whatever?
19:42 < SupUser> sensors/whatever
19:50 < fenn> vesta estimates $16-60 per ton of CO2 removed and we need to remove something like 500 Gt or $8-30 trillion for the whole project
19:59 < docl> I had a thought... what if we just remove a huge amount of dissolved silica from the oceans? assuming it's a self sustaining equilibrium, the oceans should then start pulling more silica from silicates, right?
20:02 < docl> well, it might be that the oceans just dissolve mostly quartz (e.g. sand) to replace the silica if you do that
20:06 < docl> otoh any environment where you deplete the dissolved silica is deficient in the nutrients the creatures that produce biogenic silica depend on. so you don't want to decrease the concentration by much for very long
20:06 < docl> .wik Biogenic_silica
20:06 < saxo> "Biogenic silica (bSi), also referred to as opal, biogenic opal, or amorphous opaline silica, forms one of the most widespread biogenic minerals." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogenic_silica
20:09 < docl> "Dissolved silicate concentrations range between less than 1 micromole/kg (1 × 10−6 mole/kg) in surface waters to approximately 180 micromoles/kg (1.8 × 10−4 mole/kg) in the deep North Pacific."
20:09 < docl> .t https://www.britannica.com/science/seawater
20:09 < saxo> Seawater | Composition, Properties, Distribution, & Facts | Britannica
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20:27  * fenn reads https://worksinprogress.co/issue/olivine-weathering/
20:35 < fenn> they estimate ~$10/t marginal cost to mine and grind olivine into ~4 micron particles, which will absorb CO2 faster than sand sized 300 micron particles. the energy cost goes up as particle size goes down, order of magnitude particle diameter
20:36 < docl> I should probably actually read it myself
20:37 < fenn> putting precise numbers on the conversion rates seems like it really matters, because the energy cost is really sensitive to final particle size
20:38 < fenn> there was a thing called a "windhexe" which was like a mini tornado and was able to turn large particles into small particles without any grinding media
20:42 < fenn> maybe pumping hot CO2 solution through a larger particle slurry will cause them to react quicker, and you can grind and react at the same time?
20:49 < fenn> i'm skeptical of his $1.60/t capital costs
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22:25 < docl> well my thinking is you don't need to use the CO2 as the acid, although it might be fine to use CO2, the acid is just needed to enhance the grinding process. the product you want is just the fine silicate rock dust. you'd then spread it on a desert where it gets plenty of UV from the sun.
22:26 < docl> actually maybe UV driven has a different dynamic and 300 micron is fine? how deeply does UV penetrate a rock layer?
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22:28 < docl> 500 microns? well this is probably assuming mars-like UV levels. https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2018JE005758
22:29 < docl> ok so we want to build tall glaciers so we can sprinkle olivine sand on top
22:30 < docl> eh the surface area needed might be too big
22:32 < docl> still, if you wind up with a mix of SiO2 and MgO you probably have a more fragile grain
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23:44 < hprmbridge> gwillen> it ended up being Claude 3 Haiku
23:44 < hprmbridge> gwillen> opus is too expensive and too slow
23:44 < hprmbridge> gwillen> (for the channel summaries, I mean)
23:45 < hprmbridge> gwillen> If someone wants to try to do more with it, I can dig up the prompts I used. Most of the work was basically plumbing. It was a terrible jupyter notebook.
23:45 < hprmbridge> gwillen> Also it used langchain, which is terrible. Don't use langchain.
--- Log closed Sun Aug 11 00:00:19 2024