--- Log opened Thu Aug 15 00:00:23 2024
00:44 < hprmbridge> alethkit> Kanzure: I wonder if xenonucleic acids might be an easier starting point for creating minimal synthetic cells
00:46 < hprmbridge> alethkit> @alonzoc Yes, the fact that there's 1/3rd of WTF genes at a minimum upsets me
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03:17 < hprmbridge> kanzure> is not for lack of trying.
03:17 < hprmbridge> kanzure> they basically have to do a binary search of elimination
03:18 < hprmbridge> kanzure> how do you see XNA genome helping?
03:18 < hprmbridge> kanzure> if you want really minimal then you might be satisfied with a virus and virus genome
04:25 < alethkit> kanzure: I presume having a different backbone would allow for more stable decoding, meaning you need less non-coding genes?
04:25 < alethkit> Viral genomes do sound like something to look at, but I thought they lacked self replication?
04:26 < alethkit> I guess this is now also partly amateur chemistry
04:42 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I am working with XNAs lately and I don't think I follow your stable decoding argument
05:15 < kanzure> non-genes can have lots of other downstream effects, since everything collides with almost everything in the cell soup
05:16 < kanzure> cytoplasmic soup
05:57 < alethkit> oh
05:57 < alethkit> so the transcription process isn't affected by the backbone the genes are bound to?
06:17 < kanzure> backbone matters, but watson-crick basepairing is also very important
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13:05 < hprmbridge> nmz787> borrowed a bill cosby CD from the library a few weeks back, wasn't too interesting, but listened to one skit about  Noah's ark, and in it he mentioned something about Noah being 600 years old
13:08 < hprmbridge> nmz787> maybe the solar system has changed and is more mutagenic now than before... idk... haven't given much thought to that or biblical stories
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14:08 < hprmbridge> kanzure> years of hoarding have finally paid off https://x.com/NakamotoInst/status/1824168959643410800
14:27 < geneh2> there are a bunch of approaches to 'print vasculature' yet no one does it
14:29 < hprmbridge> kanzure> this was previously a member of this chat https://news.rice.edu/news/2019/organ-bioprinting-gets-breath-fresh-air
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14:38 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Can't find it but there's some really good work in growing blood vessels in brain organoids. Only paper in my archive I can find is 10.1097/WNR.0000000000001014
14:43 < hprmbridge> kanzure> mentioned in the logs. there was something for agarose gel matrix vascularization of implantable circuits.
14:44 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Yeah a lot of the work on controlling morphogenesis seems to be focused on printing a extracellular matrix which then directs organoid growth
14:45 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Which is probably the best approach, given we have very little understanding of the genetic circuitry that allows a single fertilised egg cell to grow into a programmed form
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16:39 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Organ systems of a Cambrian euarthropod larva" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07756-8
17:50 < docl> @nmz787 yes the antediluvian lifespan claims caught my attention as a christian kid. typical lifespan was supposedly 900-1000. all bunk to me now, of course, but creationist periodicals would talk about how a layer of water above the atmosphere and hence radiation shielding was lost
17:51 < docl> another hypothesis floated was that this was the result of the severe population bottleneck after the flood, only 3 breeding pairs
17:55 < docl> one idea in bible believing culture is that inbreeding was less harmful due to lack of mutational load, so Eve being Adam's clone and their kids marrying siblings was excused (also Abraham marrying his half sister, his kids and grandkids marrying cousins, etc.) was excused as "so soon after the flood it was still ok"
17:59 < docl> doesn't work with a modern understanding of biology IMO since the lifespan drop was so sharp (genesis 11 shows them tapering down)
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18:22 < hprmbridge> kanzure> twitter getting weird today "genetically engineering elite telegraphers back during WW2"
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21:17 < hprmbridge> Eli> Saying someone was 600 years old just meant they were really old. Modern people twisted that into a literal statement.
21:18 < hprmbridge> Eli> There’s mistranslation. For example, saying Jonah was swallowed by a fish just meant he had depression. It didn’t mean he was actually swallowed by a fish. But metaphors didn’t translate well
22:30 < hprmbridge> Lev> ... nevermind ages like that being found in contemporaneous records that also actually correctly reflect other ages?
22:30 < hprmbridge> Lev> To which degree is it metaphor and to which degree is it "well that guy got 200 and that guy got 700 and that guy got 43"
22:31 < hprmbridge> Lev> that's not a metaphor saying they died young
22:33 < docl> I currently suppose it's all fiction. rich in metaphor, with some historical reality sprinkled in, sure. but it's a supernatural tale set in a fictional version of the universe. why not literal long lifespans closer to the perfect original creation event?
22:34 < hprmbridge> Lev> I mean the historicity of all those figures is...problematic
22:35 < fenn> i thought those wildly improbable ages were just denominated in months instead of years
22:35 < hprmbridge> Lev> Half of them might very well have just not existed, and then the ages are just wild too
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22:35 < hprmbridge> Lev> like Fuxi afaik has no historical basis except the existence of a monument to him, which doesn't mean much
22:35 < docl> as I mentioned the shrinking lifespans in genesis 11, it's heavily implied that the lack of supernatural contact with the abrahamic deity causes lifespans to be shorter. there's also a verse (gen 6:3) where it's explicitly stated that the spirit leaving the flesh of men limits their lifespan to 120 years. fairly tolkeinesque
22:35 < hprmbridge> Lev> but also supposedly lived 197 years
22:36 < hprmbridge> Lev> why 197? why not
22:36 < hprmbridge> Lev> To be completely honest i largely ignore anything in the bible that doesn't have some contemporaneous attestations
22:37 < hprmbridge> Lev> That does make a decent amount of the bible mildly historical, but...only so much
22:38 < hprmbridge> Lev> We can say a surprising amount about egyptian slaveholding practices and military/economic division over Canaan from other records
22:39 < fenn> woo
22:39 < hprmbridge> Lev> ye pretty much it's not the prettiest time or place to be in
22:40 < fenn> i mean, as someone who wasn't brainwashed from a young age, i don't understand why people care so much about some ancient history
22:40 < fenn> there's lots of other ancient history that nobody cares about
22:41 < hprmbridge> Lev> I mean i did do the whole bible school thing thanks to my parents, but i'm an atheist and primarily interested in anatolian history of the time, not biblical
22:41 < hprmbridge> Lev> Altho that overlaps a bit with hittite relations with egypt and being in the same general area and timeframe as a lot of things
22:43 < hprmbridge> Lev> If you ever want to learn about hattic quotes in hittite documents, i gotchu, but i got nothin on hebrew sources tbh
22:44 < docl> fenn: once you get out of the religion, it's like if all your friends and family were huge firefly/serentity fans but also think it's a prophecy of the future? with the few liberal ones thinking it's set in an alternate universe instead of the literal future?
22:45 < hprmbridge> Lev> I mean my uncle is a deacon who published a book that can be most generously referred to as jesus fanfiction
22:45 < hprmbridge> Lev> so
22:45 < hprmbridge> Lev> 🤷‍♂️
22:47 < docl> explaining it as months instead of years to me sounds like a liberal-christian move to make it sound less like fantasy instead of a reasonable argument, given the gen 6:3 and gen 11 stuff. but one might think it comes from an oral tradition before it got written down. the story about abraham lying about sarah not being his wife is repeated 3x in slightly different form, so uh probably does come from an 
22:48 < docl> oral tradition
22:48 < hprmbridge> Lev> Also nvm that most of these are written with different time systems already being taken into account during translation
22:51 < fenn> "in bible believing culture is that inbreeding was less harmful due to lack of mutational load" <- i find this really funny. it's like flat earthers using newton's equations of gravity and motion to explain their flat earth theory
22:51 < docl> yeah it's hilarious from the outside :)
22:51 < docl> ken ham was the one I got the most exposure to as a kid
22:59 < hprmbridge> Lev> well ofc it's obviously divine blood which negates all these issues \s
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23:03 < fenn> i invented the months thing myself iirc
23:04 < docl> pretty sure I read the 1998 glossy print magazine this is from when I was 15: https://creation.com/living-for-900-years
23:04 < fenn> it just makes sense. the ages suddenly become human age ranges, and everything can be explained by a simple unit error, which happens all the time in other disciplines
23:05 < fenn> like 83 is pretty old for a goat herder
23:05 < fenn> 81
23:06 < fenn> and then nobody wants to walk it back and contradict the last guy to tell the story, because of cultural taboos against contradicting elders
23:07 < docl> if it's from a unit conversion issue, where did the guys ages after the flood being a 200-400 years come from?
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23:08 < fenn> same thing? people died because they were unhealthy?
23:08 < fenn> someone went back and edited the record? i don't know, i'm not an expert on biblical ages
23:09 < hprmbridge> Lev> Ok but like it's often somewhat noticeable if you take, say, a chinese list of emperors, and then convert to months, and then find out the culture now claims to have existed for 150 years instead of 5000-8000 depending where you look
23:09 < docl> I mean, there's a graph in the link I pasted, it shows the ages getting shorter... if someone edited it to make it a better story that'd make sense, yeah
23:09 < hprmbridge> Lev> you can argue conversion error if than unit is standalone
23:10 < hprmbridge> Lev> it's hard to argue it when it's a repeatedly used thing, i.e. a unit
23:11 < hprmbridge> Lev> If the reign of a known emperor and the reign of a mythological one are the same, we can still argue that the person who transcribed whatever in 200 AD was the one to mistranslate, but
23:12 < hprmbridge> Lev> On one hand arguably same or higher likelihood for mistranslation/whatever, but also arguable likelihood of the copier seeing 23 and saying "not impressive enough for *my* emperor's lineage" and just
23:12 < hprmbridge> Lev> 'correcting'
23:13 < hprmbridge> Lev> Altho arguably language proximity would be a point reducing likelihood of translation error
23:13 < fenn> yeah people dying at age 19 years after the flood would contradict the doctrine of "things were just better in the past" so there's a bias to "correct" it
23:14 < fenn> they don't even necessarily thing they're changing the historical record, but rather fixing an error
23:14 < fenn> think*
23:14 < docl> oral tradition could be mutated by any one in the long chain of storytelling professionals deciding to lie or misremembering. the specific numbers might have gotten made up to make it feel more plausible *after* someone had established a vague plotline like 'everyone lived to 1000 but then after the flood it started getting shorter'
23:16 < hprmbridge> Lev> Plus even with written tradition, to this day there's a subculture of "debating the historicity is bad because that's not the spirit in which things were written"
23:16 < hprmbridge> Lev> When your local king is also supposed to be a living god, I wouldn't be surprised to see that intensify
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--- Log closed Fri Aug 16 00:00:24 2024