--- Log opened Sat Aug 31 00:00:38 2024
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11:48 < geneh2> humanoids don't need muscles.
11:49 < geneh2> there is also some argument that linear actuators are undesirable because the force loop ends up being larger, so the structure's less stiff
11:50 < docl> I wonder why birds didn't evolve lungs in their wings? probably difficult to keep it moist enough
12:05 < geneh2> the advantage of muscles is that you can get variable stiffness a bit easier via co-contraction
12:06 < geneh2> there is some argument for muscle like actuators such as hasels because these can potentialy be very cheap. Because they don't need copper
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12:08 < geneh2> HASELs currently have poor longevity though. The ones you can buy from artimus only last 1 million cycles. Given the actuation speed, you can reach 1 million cycles in a couple hours. It's crazy
12:24 < docl> could you do something similar with piezo + hydraulic?
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14:14 < geneh2> why bother?
14:14 < geneh2> piezoelectric actuators alone have some potential
14:14 < geneh2> they are inherently low speed high torque
14:16 < geneh2> I think the downside with ultrasonic motors is wear: https://www.piezo-sonic.com/en/psm60s-a
14:16 < geneh2> only 3000 hours of continuous operation
14:17 < geneh2> robot arms are typically rated for 100,000 hours plus
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17:40 < fenn> stiffness doesn't seem like a parameter to optimize for in a mobile robot
17:41 < fenn> they even add springs in serial with the actuators
17:41 < fenn> series*
17:44 < fenn> i am fond of mckibben "airmuscle" / "fluidic muscle" braided tube actuators, i'd go with water hydraulics and some primary valve actuator i'm keeping secret for now
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17:50 < geneh2> flexibility where you don't want it is not good
17:53 < geneh2> mckibben muscle is bad. I knew a prof who started out trying to make a robot with mckibben actuators. They were so bad, they gave up and started making their own electric actuators and built a company around it
18:00 < geneh2> hydraulic mckibben muscle has been made, but it's not very advtangeous. Mckibben muscle looks great on paper because when you don't include the compressor and valves they have high force and power density
18:01 < geneh2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6mRhuR_g-E
18:01 < docl> well, those ultrasonic motors aren't hydraulic. no need for ultra high speed vibrations if you're simply putting pressure on a hydraulic piston. I think piezo lets you control pressure very precisely, since it produces movements down to the angstrom level.
18:09 < L29Ah> fenn: lack of stiffness means you get a lot less predictability of your environmental interactions; unless you can percept and understand all of it and compute all your floppy interactions well, you'd better be stiff so that you can abstract away most of the wobbly complexity of mechanics behind Netwon's laws and simple feedback loops
18:15 < fenn> the environment is very unpredictable already without perception, so compliance allows the mechanical system to absorb unexpected forces
18:16 < L29Ah> have fun doing FEM in a 4D space with your sausages
18:16 < L29Ah> well you don't want your robot to be made of diamond too
18:45 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-02704-y
19:30 < docl> huh. all you need is scale, they say. wonder how hard it is to do a warehouse scale hydrogel brain?
19:31 < docl> 2d, I presume? so you would stack them up on trays maybe
19:35 < docl> https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-physical-science/fulltext/S2666-3864(24)00436-3
19:35 < docl> .t
19:35 < saxo> Just a moment...
19:36 < docl> "Electro-active polymer hydrogels exhibit emergent memory when embodied in a simulated game environment"
19:41 < docl> I guess the gel isn't very stable under experimental conditions
19:45 < docl> am getting the intuition that it's like a wax record recording of electrical patterns correlating to win/loss
19:46 < docl> but it's in the form of ions dragging water molecules around, so the paths that indicate success will have more conductivity? something like that
19:50 < docl> yeah I think the magic is largely the fact that the stuff is 2d limited which alters the entropic equation. not unlike magnetic tape or wax record. so you just form circuits and the path of least resistance tends towards whatever worked before.
19:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> is in the backlog from the other day
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20:00 < docl> ah, must have missed it. neat, maybe neurons are overhyped
20:24 < docl> I keep thinking if you want vast acreages of a thing it should be rolled on a spool. was thinking this wrt microbiological evolution the other day, but it applies to computing with gels/ions too
20:27 < docl> having to unroll and run it past a header like in magnetic tape isn't optimal for something like this. ideally you address it from the sides while still on the roll.
20:32 < docl> now it occurs to me to wonder if existing magnetic media like a cassette tape reel could be addressed from the sides for this sort of analog training purposes by throwing a high voltage through it or something
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22:36 < hprmbridge> kanzure> or photo films
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23:07 < docl> exactly
--- Log closed Sun Sep 01 00:00:39 2024