--- Log opened Sat Sep 07 00:00:44 2024 01:35 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-112-12-36.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:35 -!- _flood [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:36 -!- kitaleth_ [23bd17ddc6@sourcehut/user/alethkit] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:44 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: kitaleth, flooded 02:44 -!- kitaleth_ is now known as kitaleth 03:20 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 03:21 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:37 -!- Guest61 [~Guest61@94.131.101.67] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:38 < Guest61> what is here 03:40 -!- Guest61 [~Guest61@94.131.101.67] has quit [Client Quit] 05:16 < hprmbridge> Lev> Idk exactly how accurate that is, but having grown up on a US farm can confirm 05:20 < hprmbridge> Lev> Most farms don't have equipment/expertise required themselves but the local co-op or whatever that they sell grain/crops to provide soil tests as a service for providing those amounts 05:25 < hprmbridge> Lev> Also pesticides are extremely important to the efficiency point 05:30 < hprmbridge> Lev> The water point is more region & crop specific; linear & pivot irrigation systems can move themselves across fields, so we can absolutely use them as necessary, but in plenty of cases it makes a relatively minor difference 05:37 < hprmbridge> Lev> Someone farming wheat in Arizona would need an irrigation system for wheat; in Wisconsin the wheat does fine witthout any irrigation system in place 05:38 < hprmbridge> Lev> We have too *much* water in places locally, so we build tile lines under fields according to where water pools to drain more & make the water retention more uniform 05:44 < hprmbridge> Lev> lol I just decided to google how much of arizona farmland is tiled https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1281958353081204829/Screenshot_20240907_084441_Brave.jpg?ex=66dd9c41&is=66dc4ac1&hm=a1ef29548224199eaada2ea037c467b891fa81a35c658291e3f4a48b96439f65& 05:54 < hprmbridge> Lev> also, to be clear, this is done in *addition* to crop rotation and everything else 05:55 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@31.223.103.19] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:55 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@31.223.103.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:07 < hprmbridge> Lev> The UK actively imports manure from neighbouring countries for its farms to match demand 06:57 < hprmbridge> Eli> Are there issues with ecoli in the manure? 06:59 < hprmbridge> Lev> yes, but manure is often treated in addition to composting which helps 06:59 < hprmbridge> Lev> not everyone uses it, we usually wouldn't apply manure but maybe a bit under a quarter of the neighboring farms did yearly 07:00 < hprmbridge> Lev> actually there was a thing I remember that was kinda funny 07:01 < hprmbridge> Lev> iirc if you carbonate cow manure it reduces ecoli and other pathogens 07:01 < hprmbridge> Lev> let me see if I can find it 07:01 < hprmbridge> Lev> anyone want some ...not-coke? 07:01 < hprmbridge> Lev> 07:02 < hprmbridge> Lev> (I don't know if this is a method actually commonly used) 07:03 < hprmbridge> Lev> we only farmed crops, no animals, so I'm less familiar with how the manure is procured and more with how its applied 07:03 -!- L29Ah [~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah] has left #hplusroadmap [] 07:07 < hprmbridge> Lev> plus honestly there's other stuff to look out for too 07:09 < hprmbridge> Lev> Vomitoxin is a common issue for wheat that's not dried sufficiently 07:09 < hprmbridge> Lev> co-op tests for stuff like that as well 07:14 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@31.223.103.19] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:26 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@31.223.103.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:56 < kanzure> yawn 08:03 < hprmbridge> nmz787> NewtonTrendy I've been interested in a system that's easier than a gasifier to turn wood into electricity. A digester could also work but it seems even less capable of peak load demands 08:08 < docl> I wonder why nobody has developed n2-fixing microbes for staples like wheat and corn? 08:09 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Protestors probably 08:09 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Also natives had a system for that.. the three sisters 08:09 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Adjacency planting or whatever 08:09 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Intercropping? 08:10 < superkuh> My city installed a biosolids processing and drying facility at the wastewater treatment plant over the last few years and now makes money selling the waste material for farming/etc rather than having to pay to have it taken away. 08:10 < docl> apparently rhizoba infests legume roots and forms something like tumors so it can get sugars to drive the process. it has to deliver immune suppression signals to get in though 08:11 < docl> .t https://staceylab.missouri.edu/scientists-report-first-step-away-from-fertilizers/ 08:11 < saxo> Scientists Report First Step Away From Fertilizers - Legume-Microbe Interactions LaboratoryLegume-Microbe Interactions Laboratory | Legume-Microbe Interactions Laboratory 08:12 < docl> might actually be possible to get it to happen in corn with some lab-accelerated evolution 08:13 < superkuh> Some corn adventitious roots form a polysaccharide muscilage that hosts nitrogen fixing bacteria already. 08:13 < docl> the problem with planting multiple things together is probably just the complexity. might be fine with advanced robotics though 08:14 < superkuh> ie, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9583020/ 08:14 < docl> ooh, interesting 08:17 < docl> one thing I learned recently is that the kombucha microbe that produces the cellulose layer is also an n2 fixer. DIY potential there, since it's cheap and accessible. although I suspect specialized strains might be needed if you want to arrive at something more advantageous than crop rotation 08:20 < hprmbridge> Lev> this is definitely at least part of it, combine heads are very batchy and also using a wheat head for corn is a great way to break some very expensive equipment 08:20 < hprmbridge> Lev> we'd also have to swap out the internal sieves for separating the seeds from the chaff 08:21 < hprmbridge> Lev> those things are heavy as fuck 08:21 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Small robots are definitely on the top of my list for maintenance of my forest property, including stuff like limb removal and bark removal from thinned trees that I want to turn into poles 08:22 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I don't care if they're slow if it means I can essentially ignore them while they work 08:22 < hprmbridge> Lev> for forest work agree, for stuff like wheat you have to harvest relatively quickly once it ripens though 08:23 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Hmm 08:23 < hprmbridge> Lev> Of course with small robots or whatever if you have enough you can monitor individual plant growth cycles 08:23 < hprmbridge> Lev> or smaller batches at least 08:23 < hprmbridge> nmz787> The only harvest we have here is manual, and for wreath making season 08:23 < hprmbridge> Lev> I mean how much are you harvesting 08:23 < hprmbridge> Lev> I'm talking say like 300-400 acres of wheat 08:23 < hprmbridge> nmz787> We've got about 20 acres of noble fir 08:24 < hprmbridge> Lev> fair 08:24 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I can't recall how many the company that comes for the boughs manages/harvests from, but it's definitely in the 1000s 08:24 < hprmbridge> nmz787> If not 10ks 08:24 < hprmbridge> nmz787> But it's all immigrant labor with pole saws 08:26 < hprmbridge> Lev> With modern tech™️ a single person can somewhat manageably handle 1000 acres of cropland themselves, altho imo that's about the limit 08:26 < hprmbridge> nmz787> (we also have another ~55 acres of natural -ish re-forestation in progress) 08:27 < hprmbridge> Lev> well "by themselves" soil testing and seed/fertilizer supply notwithstanding 08:28 < hprmbridge> Lev> tilling, planting, actually spreading the fertilizer/pesticides/etc, harvesting 08:28 < docl> I wonder if waterjet methods would work better in an automated context? no more replacing sawblades, just specially cut gems 08:28 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Are you interested​ in the weeder bots? 08:29 < hprmbridge> Lev> I mean 08:29 < hprmbridge> Lev> Hoe beans long enough, anyone would be interested lmao 08:29 < hprmbridge> Lev> no one likes walking back and forth down the rows taking out the weeds by hand 08:29 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Docl are you talking to me? Water jet sounds heavier and less portable than a saw on a stick, or lopper on a stick 08:33 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1282000818458857593/PXL_20240512_220530556.MP2.jpg?ex=66ddc3cd&is=66dc724d&hm=2802d084f20ec19367c23e25d2184c4d47921fff5439509645814417b2618d42& 08:33 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I've got this RC mower from China (alibaba) 08:33 < hprmbridge> Lev> shiii how wide is it 08:33 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Cutting deck is 800mm 08:34 < hprmbridge> nmz787> But it's been under constant repair since getting it uncrated. Basically I got a dud from Alibaba and their "guarantee" was worthless 08:35 < hprmbridge> Lev> I think we used 30 in rows for wheat, don't remember for sure 08:35 < hprmbridge> Lev> don't remember for beans at all 08:35 < hprmbridge> Lev> oeuf 08:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> First the motors burned out within 20 mins, then they sent me replacements which I had to spend like 20 hours cutting and taking things apart and taking sprockets to a machinist, then needed to rewire the new motor controllers to replace the puny 150W ones they originally sent (the purchase spec said 900W per motor). Then the remote raise/lower actuators died so I replaced with bottle jacks I 08:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> welded on... Then the original alternator was too weak to replenish the power from the new actual 900W each motors 08:37 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I've been stuck/ignoring getting a mount fabbed for the new alternator I got which I recall is specced for something like a schoolbus 08:38 < hprmbridge> nmz787> And just skipped mowing my "yard" this year 08:38 < docl> anyone who cares to comment :) I'm naively picturing something like a CO2 cartridge with a lithium battery + heating element to make steam and a gemstone nozzle. outside the industrial machine tool context, you probably don't want a bulky hydraulic mechanism 08:39 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I have dreams tho now to outfit the rig with a microwave, to go and kill weeds with it. And maybe experiment with a laser to fuse gravel into a semisolid surface 08:39 < docl> alternately you might design it to do HHO bubbles that ignite to make pressure pulses, so it's driven by electrolysys and a spark rather than heat, so it doesn't have to be at boiling temperature. 08:41 < TMA> it feels like it would be cheaper to just use immigrant labourers 08:45 < TMA> I understand it is customary to use them as sex workers during the night shift, but it is probably possible to depart from that practice 08:45 < TMA> and still be profitable 08:53 < docl> better to use robots. human labor is always going to be a bottleneck. 08:54 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Someone recently was telling me about when Musk slept in the Tesla factory and reviewed the whole manufacturing process, and ended up replacing some robot with a human... Even though he and tesla was all about automating as much as they could from the start... It turned out something like screwing in a lightbulb was way more efficient with humans 08:57 < docl> more cost-efficient at the margin, sure. it's just that if you keep having humans in the process, you never reach full self-rep. 08:58 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Well humans already self-rep, sooo 08:59 < docl> hmmmm 09:01 < docl> in the technical sense, industry is already a self replicating machine. it's more that messy human dynamics usually limit growth sharply past a certain point and you can't navigate around that without solving messy human dynamics 09:03 < docl> their tendency to not raise as many kids when they have more money/education is just one of those 09:05 < kanzure> it is not clear if the terrestrial economy is self-replicating as it has never done so before 09:05 -!- flyback [~flyback@2601:540:c701:900:2b0e:bb12:8277:46c6] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:07 < docl> true from an empirical standpoint *nods sagely* 10:31 -!- gptpaste [~x@193.29.58.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:37 -!- L29Ah [~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:54 < NewtonTrendy> nmz787: have you considered battery options (such as salt/sodium diy batteries?) 11:25 -!- RangerMauve [m-4bpbmo@matrix.mauve.moe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27 -!- RangerMauve [m-4bpbmo@matrix.mauve.moe] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:31 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 11:31 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:40 -!- RangerMauve [m-4bpbmo@matrix.mauve.moe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42 -!- RangerMauve [m-4bpbmo@matrix.mauve.moe] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:27 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@31.223.103.19] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:32 < TMA> docl: the hedonic gain from having additional children is not high enough to offset the costs 15:34 -!- gptpaste [~x@193.29.58.204] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:35 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-112-12-36.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:44 < hprmbridge> kanzure> docl: evolve husks of cells to serve as crosslinkers https://www.nature.com/articles/s44222-024-00244-8