--- Log opened Wed Oct 09 00:00:15 2024
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00:19 < fenn> @eli the issue is not about whether or not fluorides are bad. unfortunately we can't rely on institutions on either side of the debate to do good science. the problem is that governments shouldn't be mass-medicating the general population with no way to opt out
00:21 < fenn> there's a tiny fraction of the population that supposedly needs fluoridated water, that's children with neglectful parents who would otherwise not get fluoridated toothpaste or regular dental treatment
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00:22 < fenn> in order to treat that tiny sliver of the populace, we carpet bomb everything with fluoride. now your fish in your fish tank are bathing in fluoride, your plants get root burn, you dump thousands of gallons of fluoridated water into the river per person
00:23 < fenn> instead of going directly to the teeth like it would with a dental treatment or toothpaste, it's absorbed systemically and circulated through the blood
00:24 < fenn> this policy is predicated on some cost benefit analysis that hasn't been done, because we don't actually know the effects
00:25 < fenn> it's also undemocratic. the vast majority of people do not want fluoride in their water. there's nobody going to municipal water utilities and asking them to put fluoride in the water
00:25 < fenn> if you lived in, say, europe, and had to make the case to put fluoride in the water, it would be a very hard sell
00:27 < fenn> now, finally, after many decades of bad policy, old bureaucrats who have painted themselves into a cognitive corner are retiring or dying. the overton window is shifting
00:28 < fenn> i only really commented on it because it's so rare to see a reversal of bad policy
00:29 < fenn> i use a brita carbon filter, or nothing
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02:32 < jrayhawk> or at least we should require something equivalent to FDA phase 3 trials on the general population before we medicate the general population
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02:38 < jrayhawk> is there a single indiscriminant public policy medical intervention that would've survived a large RCT using QoL, total hospitalizations, and total mortality as endpoints?
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02:48 < jrayhawk> safety standards are not necessarily amenable to RCTs since they're combating a race-to-the-bottom pathological incentive structure and the downsides of solutions are offset by economies of scale, so the search criteria for my question should probably be something less ambiguous than "medical intervention"
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04:06 < L29Ah> Eli: i don't, only boil it, but my water source seems to be a mountain stream that condenses on a ridge <10km away, perhaps with a tap to ancient aquifer when the condensation is insufficient
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05:58 < kanzure> hmph
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07:45 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Rapid physiological integration of fused ctenophores" https://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(24)01023-6
07:52 < fenn> aliens
08:03 < L29Ah> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Complex_Numbers_(musical_group):_Русалочка
08:03 < L29Ah> ^ deep sea aliens, transhumanism, nanoassemblers, dance music
08:19 < kanzure> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-screening-guidance-on-synthetic-nucleic-acids/uk-screening-guidance-on-synthetic-nucleic-acids-for-users-and-providers
08:22 < kanzure> "Manufacturers are encouraged to have a closed loop system in which operation of their devices relies upon obtaining reagents only available from the manufacturers (who establish the legitimacy of users whenever they obtain these reagents)."
08:22 < kanzure> in other words "we think HP is on to something here"
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08:30 < kanzure> https://www.iso.org/standard/75852.html
08:54 < fenn> david baker and demis hassabis and john jumper https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/oct/09/google-deepmind-scientists-win-nobel-chemistry-prize
08:56 < fenn> for alphafold
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12:04 < hprmbridge> Eli> That’s a good point! I guess the bigger question is the one of where and when government intervenes. The government does effectively give us supplements in the form of fortified food mandates. At the same time, the government bans many common sunscreen ingredients that are available in Europe in the name of “safety”. Public health policy seems a bit hypocritical
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23:26 < fenn> "With the exception of some standardized foods, fortification is not mandatory in the US. ... This policy discourages the indiscriminate addition of nutrients to foods." https://www.fda.gov/media/94563/download
23:28 < fenn> mostly products named "enriched"
23:28 < fenn> case in point, it's trivial to get non-iodized salt
23:30 < fenn> the document contains some confused reasoning about whether to fortify "snack foods"
23:38 < fenn> it seems more like they're giving permission to add nutrients ONLY to foods labeled as "enriched", rather than what you're imagining
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23:54 < fenn> i think the only mandatory additive is Vitamin D in milk, which came about as some kind of backlash during the mandatory pasteurization introduction controversy in the 1930s. two wrongs don't make a right
23:55 < fenn> and now you can get "organic" milk without vitamin D added
--- Log closed Thu Oct 10 00:00:16 2024