--- Log opened Sun Nov 10 00:00:45 2024
00:18 < hprmbridge> kanzure> you could buy equipment
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04:02 < L29Ah> often rich institutions sell equipment for really cheap when the support ends and scientists are faced with having to care about it themselves
04:04 < L29Ah> that's how my .ru scientist frens got most of their hardware, some are (were?) even earning a living by buying broken stuff, repairing it and selling
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07:48 < hprmbridge> geraldmahony> Well the big picture with Starlink is quite literally satellite chains between planets
07:48 < hprmbridge> geraldmahony> Unless there's some other way to solve the data transport problem
07:55 < fenn> probably more of a mesh than a chain, unless there's some trick to orbital mechanics to make it work out
07:57 < fenn> i bet you could fire DNA pellets at pretty high speed
07:57 < fenn> that's what nature does
07:57 < fenn> (panspermia)
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08:40 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/PolygenX
08:53 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Doesn't say anything about the substance of their work.  Just hope not hate stuff..
08:53 < hprmbridge> kanzure> they are doing good work
08:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> although they are reinforcing selection instead of engineering
08:54 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Like we know intelligence is mostly genetic this shit ain't pseudoscience. But we gotta pretend humans are interchangeable blank slates at birth
08:57 < alethkit> L29Ah: are they still active?
08:57 < alethkit> (In reselling equipment)
08:57 < L29Ah> alethkit: idk, haven't spoken with them for a while
08:58 < alethkit> Kanzure: I could, but I’m not sure where to start. Cold calling lab assistants?
08:58 < L29Ah> they're mostly interested in HPLC and mass-spectrometry
09:23 < hprmbridge> Lev> fenn: what're your thoughts on LiFi viability?
09:24 < hprmbridge> Lev> the Psyche test was successful, altho that's like 1/7th the distance
09:25 < hprmbridge> Lev> if it works over a earth-mars range, or close enough to one, then bandwidth would ime be a non-issue largely
09:29 < hprmbridge> Lev> altho there's gonna be some cascading effects from latency that will be annoying
09:31 < hprmbridge> Lev> If you're using MuSig to make an aggregate signature on some data with signers on earth & mars, now you're locked into 3 rounds of interplanetary data transfers
09:34 < hprmbridge> Lev> still need an alternative for bringing data planetside (at least on earth) but getting it to the planet is less challenging imo
09:37 < nsh> Gravitational Wave Communications: A Survey - https://www.ieeevtc.org/vtc2023fall/DATA/2023002917.pdf
09:38 < nsh> we already know exactly what does the most communicating between planets
09:38 < nsh> we just haven't yet the technology to harness it
09:43 < hprmbridge> Lev> nsh: They seem to not really discuss the energy costs unless I missed it
09:44 < nsh> LIGO budget isn't secret :)
09:44 < nsh> in any case, it's not the cost of tentatively figuring it out
09:44 < nsh> it's the open ended potential
09:45 < hprmbridge> Lev> also their citation for RF specifically is for the terrestrial case
09:46 < hprmbridge> Lev> which is very different from the situation for, say, deep space optical
09:46 < hprmbridge> Lev> Water is not kind to RF when it comes to molecular absorption loss
09:46 < hprmbridge> Lev> ligo only detects
09:46 < hprmbridge> Lev> no?
09:47 < nsh> right
09:47 < nsh> also it's detecting things a very long way away
09:47 < hprmbridge> Lev> you need to have something that's generating gravitational waves, which is a nontrivial energy requirement
09:47 < hprmbridge> Lev> It's detecting binary black hole mergers iirc
09:47 < hprmbridge> Lev> Which is not by any scale a "cheap" event
09:47 < nsh> if we did contrive a system to generate GWs of high amplitude we wouldn't need such sensitive instrumentation on the receiving end
09:48 < nsh> there would be tremendous energies involved but they could conceivably be more or less one-off
09:48 < hprmbridge> Lev> Which is my question, what are the energy requirements for a detectable transmission at distance X
09:48 < nsh> you just need some things spinning around each other wildly and then a way to modulate that
09:48 < hprmbridge> Lev> like if the paper had given me some maths on RF vs grav falloff that'd be diff but I didn't see those
09:49 < nsh> sometimes mohammed must go to the mountain
09:49 < nsh> people don't write these things to satisfy you :)
09:50 < nsh> they did their job fine and you might satisfy yourself by doing your own
09:50 < hprmbridge> Lev> people's desires don't magically sidestep energy requirements
09:50 < hprmbridge> Lev> hence why i'm asking about the energy requirements
09:51 < hprmbridge> Lev> we can assume that the device will eventually exist...or we can use what we already know to derive some bounds for what it would look like if it did 🤷‍♂️
09:59 < hprmbridge> Lev> Some really bad and probably incorrect napkin math has given me the estimate that one could send a single, 100 hz pulse for the low cost of ~4 * 10^33 joules
10:03 < hprmbridge> Lev> So you'd pretty much need to consume 1/1000th of the earth as energy per pulse
10:08 < hprmbridge> Lev> This is assuming generated on mars and detected by LIGO
10:10 < hprmbridge> Lev> derp this is blatantly wrong made a unit error
10:11 < hprmbridge> Lev> 1/126th billion of earths mass, 1/13.5 billion of mars
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21:53 < fenn> @Lev space-based laser communication is long past due, decades i'd say. LiFi is a terrestrial consumer grade standard, not really the same thing. when sending data interplanetary, the other planet appears as a point source, so that constrains the number of parallel optical channels you can use. there's a lot of spectrum to play with, but each band requies new technology
21:54 < fenn> you'd need a frickin huge telescope to resolve individual satellites in mars orbit from earth, and vice versa
21:56 < fenn> i mean you'd need a huge telescope anyway to get enough gain to get enough SNR to max out the channel bandwidth, so i guess that's not a good agument
21:58 < fenn> now that we know that gravitational radiation travels at the speed of light (as evidenced by simultaneous optical detection of astronomical events) it's not as interesting to me
22:07 < fenn> is it true that polygenx has rebranded as "genotribe"? everything else on the rationalwiki page was horribly misleading
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22:18 < fenn> i always thought "rationalwiki" was just a wiki created by atheists, but now i see it was created in direct response to conservapedia, which explains a lot
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22:49 < jrayhawk> some of the black & white thinking and performative externalization was inherited from the "that which can be destroyed by the truth should be" segment of the older skeptic crowd, which had only modest overlap with New Atheism.
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--- Log closed Mon Nov 11 00:00:46 2024