--- Log opened Mon Dec 23 00:00:07 2024
--- Day changed Mon Dec 23 2024
00:00 < fenn> markers aren't good enough to transfer knowledge between unrelated genetic groups, we have to understand mechanisms
00:00 < hprmbridge> Eli> That’s a very good question.
00:05 < fenn> if all we have are genetic markers for chinese people, then we have to directly study chinese people in order to understand the mechanisms behind the markers
00:05 < fenn> unfortunately this doesn't benefit the chinese people
00:05 < fenn> not very much anyway, beyond just knowing about the markers
00:06 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-112-12-36.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:07 < hprmbridge> Eli> If you have a billion people in your GWAS study, I suspect you can suss out some pretty useful stuff.
00:08 < fenn> i fear the west will be like "genocide!" and refuse to use the data won with blood and tears
00:09 < fenn> darsie: please explain why freeganism is a logical ethical framework
00:10 < fenn> er. perhaps the meaning of terms has shifted
00:11 < fenn> the thing where you can eat meat if it's roadkill or would have been wasted otherwies
00:11 < fenn> otherwise*
00:12 < NewtonTreendy> are there any open source diy guides for setting up hospitals/surgeries, where do the people that build them get this info?
00:13 < fenn> the UN and WHO have some literature
00:13 < NewtonTreendy> ty
00:13 < fenn> army field manuals are probably relevant
00:13 < NewtonTreendy> thanks
00:14 < NewtonTreendy> fenn: have you heard of Where There is No Doctor, the book?
00:14 < darsie> fenn: Freeganism is eating good food that would get or was discarded, including animal products. It reduces food production which is harmful to the environment.
00:14 < NewtonTreendy> i doubt its an all encompassing framework by default...
00:15 < darsie> If it's ethical depends on the applicable ethics.
00:15 < NewtonTreendy> doesnt provide everything we need?
00:15 < NewtonTreendy> is there a part of freeganism community that specialises in everything?
00:16 < fenn> darsie: but how do you get people past "meat is bad!" and see it logically
00:16 < darsie> There are insane amounts of food waste. It may be complete nutrition in some cases and not in others.
00:17 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@idlerpg/player/Malvolio] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:18 < darsie> fenn: Meat can be unhealthy. Some don't like it. Some think eating freegan meat may seduce people to buy meat and cause animal suffering, I guess.
00:18 < fenn> like say china forcibly sequences and collects medical data on oppressed populations such as uighurs and tibetans, and then we have the opportunity to do studies on that data. most "ethics" in vogue today will say you aren't allowed to use that data because "oppression is bad!"
00:18 < darsie> Or may even seduce yourself to buy it.
00:19 < fenn> there's some identical cognitive leap that needs to happen, i don't know what it's called
00:19 < darsie> I went shopping for my sister's family and when I suggested also buying soy milk in addition to cow milk, my little niece started crying.
00:20 < fenn> heh
00:21 < darsie> So the habit of consuming animal products can be hard to shake (off?).
00:21 < fenn> i doubt it had to do with the soy milk
00:21 < darsie> It certainly seem so.
00:22 < fenn> well we potentially have a doubly unreliable narration so it's hard to say
00:22 < darsie> I'm sure some would even kill humans if you denied them meat.
00:22 < NewtonTreendy> do you think it was because she thought omg its mean to a cow?!
00:22 < fenn> yes darsie some people will fight for freedom, whatever that means to them
00:22 < fenn> it's not about the meat or the soymilk
00:23 < NewtonTreendy> fenn: it makes sense to have the most life on your side possible though
00:23 < darsie> Or deny them fossil fuel cars.
00:23 < fenn> or guns, or healthcare, or speech, etc.
00:23 < darsie> Insisting on healthcare is reasonable.
00:24 < fenn> or circumcision, or imprisoning women, or slavery
00:24 < fenn> happy now?
00:24 < fenn> i'm not trying to set up some dichotomy of reasonable or unreasonable
00:39 < fenn> even a cat knows when humans are in disagreement and will act stressed
00:40 < NewtonTreendy> their minds have complex things we never learned too
00:41 < fenn> hrmph. when i complained about the hidden costs of tracking ethics metadata, llama doubles down on it
00:42 < NewtonTreendy> so many things that just should be done, and so many people whos whole job is pointless
00:45 < fenn> llama directed me to the "is-ought problem" articulated by Hume, but i don't really see the connection
00:45 < fenn> i'm not sure which one of us (me or llama) is being dumb
01:06 < fenn> "Researchers may use dirty data if they can demonstrate that the benefits of using the data outweigh the potential harms. Define the scope of potential harms that are relevant to the specific research question or project. Explain why the use of dirty data in this specific context is justified, and why it does not necessarily lead to a slippery slope of increasingly unethical behavior."
01:07 < TMA> it might not be an either-or situation;
01:07 < fenn> an example rule which doesn't rely solely on unaccountable consequentialist reasoning
01:08 < fenn> thanks for your confidence in me TMA
01:08 < fenn> we are all smart and good
01:08  * fenn passes around a tray of cheese danishes from the dumpster
01:08 < TMA> fenn: you are trying to get better though. llama cannot, unless trained with more data, for which it lacks agency
01:10 < fenn> by design
01:10 < fenn> those durned yuddites *shakes fist at cloud*
01:10 < TMA> darsie: by extension of the arguments you presented about the meat eating: reducing the number of humans alive lowers the pressure on the amount of animal products consumed/wasted
01:11 < fenn> yes he is anti-natalist
01:11 < fenn> but also wants to (cryo)preserve bodies for the future
01:12 < TMA> darsie: is anti-natalism enough though? shouldn't you try to abolish anti-death measures like healthcare, sanitation and so on?
01:13 < TMA> the ethics are difficult because people try to force "this behavior is good for me, I think" as a general precept
01:14 < TMA> but what is good for TMA might not necessarily be good for darsie [names are placeholders]
01:18 < TMA> therefore ethics discussions are mostly pointless
01:20 < fenn> it's a way of moving martial arts from the street fighting level through the political negotiation level and beyond to the "ought" policy formation arena
01:20 < darsie> TMA: "Avoid fossil fuels and animal products. Have no/fewer children. Protest, elect sane politicians. Invest ecologically." is my standard advice to stop the mass extinction.
01:20 < fenn> if you don't study judo you'll get tossed out on your ass, whether you think judo is pointless or not
01:22 < darsie> abolishing healthcare and sanitation is cruel. But we could euthanise every human not born on a Monday. Well, actually I think that's not really possible.
01:22 < TMA> darsie: it still fails to demonstrate how stopping the mass extinction is a good thing*
01:22 < TMA> * at least it fails to delineate whose good it is
01:23 < fenn> the extincting beings, presumably
01:23 < darsie> I've stopped donating blood, though. I thought of resuming for people do great things to stop the mass extinction.
01:24 < TMA> fenn: presumably, not demonstrably. it might reduce their suffering and suffering is bad, isn't it?
01:25  * TMA stops now
01:25 < fenn> reducing suffering isn't a stable moral concept, it just results in destroying everything immediately as the best possible course of action
01:27 < darsie> TMA: Well, xx wants all life to cease. Buddhism or so wants all life to reach nirvana. I ... just like biodiversity. I guess humans could live with just 1000 species left (wild guess), like I know cannabis can be grows with inorganic fertilizer, water and light, so maybe we could just live off 100 species. 
01:29 < darsie> A low biodiversity colony on Mars seems possible.
01:29 < darsie> I'd like that, too.
01:31 < fenn> what if we had to extinct all the poor martian microbes living deep underground
01:32 < fenn> kim stanley robinson's green/red debate turns environmentalism on its head
01:32 < darsie> To make a colony? Well, xenobiologists might cry.
01:33 < fenn> the microbes would cry too
01:33 < darsie> What if we had to accept the occasional oil spill to drive cars?
01:34 < darsie> cyanobacteria wiped out lot of species.
01:35 < darsie> Should cyanobacteria have been stopped?
01:37 < fenn> the extraordinary galaxy-saving humans came from a class 13 deathworld, the evolutionary result of a planetary holocaust
01:37 < fenn> consequentialism is difficult even in the present
01:50 < fenn> humans don't yet have the technical competence for full autotrophy but it will happen eventually. an arugment based on humans using the ecosystem for survival is only a temporary justification, instrumental and quantitative
01:51 < fenn> we could be destroying so many more species to ensure more rapid growth... (says the theory taken to its extreme)
01:52 < fenn> argument*
03:55 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
03:56 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap
05:20 < fenn> in-mouth tongue touchpad https://www.augmental.tech/
05:40 < fenn> .t https://github.com/shobrook/wut
05:40 < saxo> GitHub - shobrook/wut: A terminal assistant for the hopelessly confused
05:40 < fenn> an LLM actually being useful
06:04 -!- saxo [~saxo@zug.infomesh.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:04 -!- saxo [~saxo@zug.infomesh.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
06:07 -!- saxo [~saxo@zug.infomesh.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:07 -!- saxo [~saxo@zug.infomesh.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
06:09 -!- saxo [~saxo@zug.infomesh.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:09 -!- saxo [~saxo@zug.infomesh.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
06:10 -!- saxo [~saxo@zug.infomesh.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:11 -!- saxo [~saxo@zug.infomesh.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
06:15 -!- saxo [~saxo@zug.infomesh.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:15 -!- saxo [~saxo@zug.infomesh.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:56 < kanzure> wut is nice, but a one-liner wrapper like "how2do list files in directory plskthx" is what i expected
07:56 < kanzure> ah, it does specific questions too, that's nice
09:15 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-112-12-36.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:16 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-112-12-36.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #hplusroadmap
09:23 < hprmbridge> Eli> I’ve been using starship and warp. https://www.warp.dev
10:52 -!- etc-vi686 [~etc-vi@user/meow/girlchunks] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:53 -!- balrog [znc@user/balrog] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:58 -!- etc-vi68 [~etc-vi@user/meow/girlchunks] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)]
10:58 -!- balrog_ [znc@user/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
10:58 -!- etc-vi686 is now known as etc-vi68
13:17 -!- Croran [~Croran@user/Croran] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
15:05 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@gateway/tor-sasl/justanotheruser] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:06 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@gateway/tor-sasl/justanotheruser] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:18 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@49.216.161.174] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:23 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@101.10.54.113] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:26 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@49.216.161.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
15:49 -!- TMM_ [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
15:49 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:34 -!- TC [~talinck@76-230-66-1.lightspeed.cntmoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:35 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@101.10.54.113] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:35 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@101.10.54.113] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:37 -!- hellleshin [~talinck@76-230-66-1.lightspeed.cntmoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
17:38 -!- darsie [~darsie@84-112-12-36.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
17:43 -!- gl00ten3 [~gl00ten@49.216.161.174] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:45 -!- gl00ten2 [~gl00ten@101.10.54.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
18:47 -!- gl00ten3 [~gl00ten@49.216.161.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:25 -!- mxz__ [~mxz@user/mxz] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:26 -!- mxz [~mxz@user/mxz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:26 -!- mxz__ is now known as mxz
20:26 -!- mxz_ [~mxz@user/mxz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
21:00 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@101.10.54.113] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:25 -!- Croran [~Croran@user/Croran] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:46 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@101.10.54.113] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:46 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@101.10.52.205] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:58 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@idlerpg/player/Malvolio] has quit [Quit: 1AF6 Stockfish, general purpose 2024-12-24 05:58:22:612]
22:04 -!- gl00ten [~gl00ten@101.10.52.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:29 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
22:29 -!- TMM [hp@amanda.tmm.cx] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:33 -!- mxz_ [~mxz@user/mxz] has joined #hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Tue Dec 24 00:00:27 2024