--- Log opened Tue Feb 25 00:00:28 2025
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01:25 < hprmbridge> Katylase> hi friends! how are you doing?
01:45 < TMA> SSDD
01:59 < jrayhawk> I am not presently on fire. How are you?
02:21 < hprmbridge> Katylase> good! got back to building my cubesat after a 2 year break (I had to complete high school...😆 )
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02:34 < hprmbridge> jrayhawk> I used to work with a group that's doing cubesats and rockets. https://www.oresat.org/
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02:54 < hprmbridge> Katylase> @jrayhawk that's so awesome! can I show you mine?😊
02:55 < hprmbridge> jrayhawk> Sure.
02:56 < hprmbridge> Katylase> here! his name is Altair... https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1343899304145981472/IMG_3063.jpg?ex=67bef342&is=67bda1c2&hm=b6a371eaa6891e8ecef68fb23ea7f99486dbdd9a90009ebb7fe22632bb0d8a9b&
02:59 < hprmbridge> Katylase> (as a prototype, can't do much except blinking a led, because I haven't got the gyro/acc/mag and power extensions yet...
03:03 < jrayhawk> Is there a group you're getting involved with to defray costs for such things?
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03:11 < hprmbridge> Katylase> I don't think so... in my country are cubesat groups rare, and mostly on universities...
03:11 < hprmbridge> Katylase> also it's more fun to do it solitary... (I don't plan to send Altair to orbit, as he isn't optimized for it... and I like him too much😆 )
03:12 < jrayhawk> University "student groups" are usually happy to take non-students, FWIW.
03:16 < hprmbridge> Katylase> still, I like more to be on my own...
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03:45 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "SBX creates a surrogate molecule called an Xpandomer (which is 50 times longer than target DNA) and encodes the DNA sequence information in large, high signal-to-noise reporters. The backbone of the Xpandomer is X-NTPs, which are linked along a target DNA template. The DNA sequence is represented in the X-NTP sequence. The four X-NTP types have a tether that is linked between the base and the
03:45 < hprmbridge> kanzure> alpha phosphate. In the process, the DNA template is degraded and the backbone expands, becoming an Xpandomer which is pulled through a nanopore. "
04:03 < fenn> i thought the next step was going to be FISH for DNA barcode imaging
04:04 < fenn> apparently mRNAs get dragged along by transporter molecules on actin filaments
04:06 < fenn> (so drag the mRNA through a fluorescent reader protein complex)
04:07  * fenn wonders how many patent trolls are reading this channel
04:07 < hprmbridge> kanzure> if you can talk to a potato, then why not a dead brain?
04:07 < fenn> because the mechanism of information storage is different
04:08 < hprmbridge> kanzure> the mechanism is unknown.
04:08 < fenn> the mechanism is synaptic receptor density for various neurotransmitters
04:08 < fenn> don't make me re-read the potato paper
04:09 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what is needed is a way to convert into a more legible format, chemically, without long term DNA engineering required
04:09 < fenn> "long term DNA engineering"?
04:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what was wrong with russell Hanson's gold nanoparticle aptamers for neurotransmitter receptors? someone was complaining about microCT  max x-ray resolution?
04:10 < fenn> express barcodes in each cell along with synaptic receptor proteins, export most of that DNA into the synaptic cleft along with some ligase to splice it onto the neighboring cell barcode DNA
04:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yeah like delivering genetic updates to every neuron
04:11 < fenn> without gene therapy i suppose
04:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> chemical transformation could be more efficient and near term accessible compared to "hope we can deliver genetics to every single neuron" other than embryo engineering
04:13 < hprmbridge> kanzure> there are several competing theories for human biological memory format. it's not just connectome and receptor weights...
04:14 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://gershmanlab.com/pubs/memory_synthesis.pdf
04:14 < fenn> ok so fortunately we can use random neuron ID sequences, so you could plausibly have a nanoparticle-surface-attached replicating random DNA as the barcode, which then gets released into the cleft to combine with the neighboring nanoparticles
04:15 < fenn> the only difference here is that it's replicating outside of the cell instead of inside. i don't think this makes it easier
04:16 < hprmbridge> kanzure> human brains should be replaced with auto generative neural networks that can accurately predict their own weights, so that we don't get into this mess in the future
04:17 < fenn> there have been no randomized double blind placebo controlled studies of parachutes
04:18 < fenn> is there any serious alternative theory of memory storage besides synapses?
04:19 < fenn> do we care about epigenetics and mRNA in neurons?
04:20 < fenn> it doesn't seem fast enough to account for the kinds of behavior we care about
04:20 < fenn> like wow circadian rhythms exist
04:25 < fenn> if the alternative theory is in that paper, i'm not seeing it
04:25 < hprmbridge> kanzure> go go gadget LLM summarizer.
04:27 < fenn> .kagi list the alternative theories of memory formation in https://gershmanlab.com/pubs/memory_synthesis.pdf
04:27 < gptpaste> ​null# Tue Feb 25 12:27:15 PM UTC 2025 - URL: list - Q: the alternative theories of memory formation in https://gershmanlab.com/pubs/memory_synthesis.pdf - https://gist.github.com/Epivalent/02fd9fabc66f41969e5aeef95a966e27/raw
04:27 < fenn> .kagi https://gershmanlab.com/pubs/memory_synthesis.pdf list the alternative theories of memory formation
04:27 < gptpaste> ​"Alternative theories of memory formation challenge the traditional view that memories are primarily stored through synaptic modifications. Here are some notable alternative theories:1. **Intracellular Molecular Substrates**:   - This theory posits that memories are encoded in molecules within the cell, rather than at the synapse. The specific nature of these molecular subst - https://gist.github.com/Epivalent/5a292b1c874cef76a597842a4e9e99ec/raw
04:29 < fenn> did it even read the paper
04:34 < fenn> ok so of the things kagi listed, only #1 (unknown intracellular molecular memory) and #5 (RNA-based memory) are not secretly actually synaptic memory encoding
04:36 < fenn> one could hypothetically attach a reporter sequence for these things to the DNA barcode before it's exported, but we'd have to discover it first. frankly i find it hard to believe that such things exist and are important to behavior but still haven't been discovered
04:36 < fenn> s/it/them/
04:37 < hprmbridge> kanzure> there's also one about extracellular matrix vacancies or something
04:37 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "perineuronal net" swiss cheese theory
04:37 < fenn> there's no room for extracellular matrix, it's jam packed full of neurons
04:38 < fenn> god of the gaps theory
04:43 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what if it's protein conformational states or mechanical compressions
04:43 < fenn> ok so PNNs are a structural reinforcement layer that can "fossilize" a pre-existing synaptic connection, making a memory that would have been forgotten or desensitized become permanent instead
04:51 < fenn> i wish they didn't call it a "net" which is needlessly confusing
04:53 < fenn> alright i concede that PNNs could be important for imprinted personality traits that people would find important and part of their identity
04:57 < kanzure> obvious solution is neural network quines that predict their own weights
04:57 < kanzure> and then you have substrate independence
04:58 < kanzure> relying on a system that has high-resolution details beyond your best optical/scanning capabilities seems unwise!
05:00 < fenn> i also want a space pony
05:02 < kanzure> got you covered fam because someone is doing that https://building.life/
05:02 < fenn> even if you could individually inspect each neuron in your own brain it wouldn't solve the bandwidth problem
05:02 < kanzure> how was i supposed to know a digital immigrant had a space pony? who has a space pony anyway?
05:03 < fenn> .t https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3725115/
05:03 < saxo> Very long-term memories may be stored in the pattern of holes in the perineuronal net - PMC
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07:01 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> kanzure: is that The ODINs latest project? Iirc they were talking about something along those lines
07:03 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yes.. are you visiting in april?
07:05 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> Probably, it's up in the air atm
07:05 < hprmbridge> kanzure> fenn, why not read the gershman pdf? it's nice..
07:59 < kanzure> is there an area of physical science that "exclusively" studies high resolution maximalism? like spatial light modulator multiplexing phased array peoples or something.
08:00 < kanzure> there should be a table somewhere that gets updated with our highest resolution most repeatable addressable spatial modulation capabilities
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08:34 < kanzure> https://www.twitch.tv/claudeplayspokemon
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14:20 < fenn> has claude won yet
14:26 < fenn> claude is obsessively curating his pokedex instead of playing
14:27 < fenn> oh now he's actually playing
14:39 < L29Ah> what
15:00 < hprmbridge> alonzoc> fenn: Finally human-esque play styles!
16:07 < L29Ah> [07.02.2024 23:04:37] fenn: just like every lab needs an artist in residence, each university should provide access to a punnery
16:07 < L29Ah> [07.02.2024 23:05:37] fenn: they could stock it with refugees from the de-funded humanities departments
16:07 < L29Ah> [07.02.2024 23:06:21] fenn: maybe we can train an LLM to do this
16:07 < L29Ah> a year have passed, and now i feel like LLMs are up for the task
16:13 < fenn> a lot of puns rely on pronunciation similarities which the LLMs still haven't really been trained on. audio AI is lagging due to MAFIAA influence
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20:50 < fenn> claude has finally gotten unstuck from the corner of the viridian forest maze
20:51 < fenn> five hours later
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--- Log closed Wed Feb 26 00:00:29 2025