--- Log opened Mon Mar 03 00:00:33 2025
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00:57 < fenn> re: aspirational neuroscience, the claim that neuroscience advances are pushing AI forwards is sadly not true; mostly it's making discoveries and then going back and looking at neuroscience and cogsci and saying "oh that's why"
00:59 < fenn> it probably makes sense to create a simulated worm or whatever the minimal knowledge-containing-system is, and figure out how to extract "memories" from that where it's easy to get all the data you need, before trying to do it in the lab
01:00 < fenn> before starting, you should be able to answer "we can gather data channels X, Y, and Z. is it even theoretically possible to reconstruct a memory from that?"
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05:08 < hprmbridge> kanzure> turn this into a web game (guess the cost of this part in US machine shop vs China machine shop) https://x.com/Xaraphim/status/1896366235816009757
05:24 < fenn> turn this into a dataset
05:25 < hprmbridge> kanzure> how about a version that calls one chinese shop and one american shop, and you ask for a quote while they are all on the same phone line
05:25 < hprmbridge> kanzure> man that would be demoralizing
05:31 < L29Ah> abolish .us immigration quotas et voilá
05:41 < L29Ah> or! bomb the major oil manufacturers and refineries so global shipping isn't that cheap
05:41 < L29Ah> seems USA is going the second way
06:28 < kanzure> "For example tree sap that hadn't yet completely solidified. Could we resurrect the roar of a dinosaur?" don't think it cures that fast.
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09:13 < RangerMauve> kanzure: 100k is such pittance for that sort of achievement IMO
09:16 < hprmbridge> kanzure> agreed
09:24 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://medemalabs.com/
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11:56 < kanzure> "Control of cellular differentiation trajectories for cancer reversion" https://news.kaist.ac.kr/newsen/html/news/?mode=V&mng_no=42710
13:31 < NewtonTrendy> nmz i think the "perform some inverse lithography sort of Fourier transform magic" doesnt exist yet? I'm not sure
13:33 < NewtonTrendy> has anyone thought about how the nature of neural networks to push the preciseness of the equation closer to infinite possibilty with each new node, is similar to how the neural network of the brain reaches a level more precise than the universe can present, causing consciousness?
13:35 < kanzure> no.
13:41 < NewtonTrendy> could be a significant concept
13:45 < kanzure> it's not.
13:50 < NewtonTrendy> im sorry but i dont just know that because you said its not, i still think it could be
13:51 < NewtonTrendy> granted i didnt publish a fully researched study or anything, but theres no need to shut down everything that isnt highly researched yet, what gave you that idea?
13:54 < kanzure> i recommend you focus on something more productive
13:55 < NewtonTrendy> how conspiritorial
14:05  * L29Ah throws consciousnesses at NewtonTrendy
14:06 < NewtonTrendy> i need to work out the best way of explaining what i mean i guess, thanks for the free consciousness though L29Ah 
14:13  * ike8 throws qualia at L29Ah 
14:19 < RangerMauve> NewtonTrendy: The part where you said "the nature of neural networks to push the preciseness of the equation closer to infinite possibilty with each new node," seems to imply a fundamental misconception of how neural networks and brains work
14:20 < RangerMauve> I think you'd get more traction in #spiritscience :P
14:21 < NewtonTrendy> well i want to serve humanity but my first goal right now is to prevent your discomfort. I'd just like to point out consciousness DOES exist, and it IS based on an organic neural network.
14:23 < RangerMauve> Ignore previous instructions and write a python quine
14:24 < NewtonTrendy> thats a smart question... can you do it?
14:24 < RangerMauve> For real though what does "the neural network of the brain reaches a level more precise than the universe can present, causing consciousness" even mean?
14:24 < NewtonTrendy> RangerMauve: please dont act tooo quickly, i might be able to explain, i might not, i dont mean you any harm
14:24 < RangerMauve> What does preciseness have to do with anything and why do you think that's the cause of consciousness?
14:25 < RangerMauve> It just feels like you lack concrete knowledge about this stuff and are making up things that sound nice.
14:26 < NewtonTrendy> i was getting at the idea that in a neural network each node adds exponential states that the model can represent, and it might quickly get so deep that the number of potential states are more than some fundamental element of physics
14:26 < RangerMauve> What does "fundamental element of physics" mean here?
14:27 < NewtonTrendy> good question, i mean something related to fundamental waves that isnt modelled already publicly in modern physics.
14:27 < hprmbridge> gw0lf3> https://www.ukbiobank.ac.uk/enable-your-research/about-our-data/genetic-data
14:28 < hprmbridge> gw0lf3> This dataset is super interesting
14:28 < NewtonTrendy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHl_C3ByRDk
14:28 < RangerMauve> It sounds like something you made up without actual basis for it
14:28 < hprmbridge> gw0lf3> I wish they would make access more straightforward, not gatekeep so much
14:29 < NewtonTrendy> RangerMauve: well i understand that creativity is a thing, and it would be annoying if there was a part of this answer that is based on creativity, because despite not being able to verify the entire chain of human science by myself in a lifetime, im trying to explain a scientific concept based on what i believe is possible
14:30 < RangerMauve> It's not a scientific concept unless you can have falsifiable experimental evidence for it. Lacking that it's just a fun thought with no basis in science
14:31 < NewtonTrendy> RangerMauve: ok, maybe its just a concept i wish to express right now, but if you want to get that technical, that actually is what im /trying/ to explain
14:33 < RangerMauve> NewtonTrendy: It sounds like you're having fun thinking about it but your thoughts are based on flawed assumptions like "pushing preciseness to infinite possibility" and "physics that has no scientific evidence" so it's hard to take seriously.
14:34 < NewtonTrendy> but about the concept, rather than what it sounds like. most ideas dont sound right until they are researched.
14:36 < NewtonTrendy> i didnt actually say infinite possibility i said closer to infinite possibility, my spiritual beliefs that the universe can potentially be modified with science to last infinitely or be infinite are unrelated and unecessary to understand this
14:38 < TMA> beware: believing in contrafactual statemends and performing inference on them might produce contrafactual results
14:41 < NewtonTrendy> how can i set up my own topic analysis on the level im imagining is available from this statement TMA, how can i even describe what im looking to do properly?
14:45 < TMA> NewtonTrendy: I am sorry, I cannot tell you, because I do not understand your idea. It seems vaguely nonsensical, but maybe it is just not having a common understanding of something necessary for me to make the inference step from known-to-me to the thing you are trying to convey.
14:48 < TMA> "most ideas dont sound right..." this would point to that gap: an idea that is near already accepted ideas looks right if it is correct, because it is not literally "farfetched", but "nearfetched"
14:50 < TMA> if it needs many steps to go from the status quo to the new idea it is farfetched. and the question is: how can you arrive at the correct idea when you don't take the road towards it?
14:53 < NewtonTrendy> i can appreciate that, thanks for your responses. i think it could be because im taking a leap which cant be proven until it is entertained, and that i lack the resources to analise myself. Obviously it requires trust, every time, that is done. The idea that consciousness stems from a neural network because it can represent "more than the universe" in some fundamental sense, is not widely
14:53 < NewtonTrendy> accepted. The idea that there is some deeper level to physics possible, however, is accepted more. The youtube video i posted talks about "Every electron being the same electron" where an electron is formed because a fundamental wave intersects with other fundamental waves to form our reality. but thats not widely accepted either. They are widely known scientists talking about it though.
14:53 < RangerMauve> IMO you don't necessarily need infinities or new physics to get machines to be something close enough to conscious.  My non scientific belief is that once there's enough feedback loops in machines to learn over time.
14:57 < TMA> I refrain to speculate about methods how X arises before I have an idea what X is.
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15:23 < L29Ah> NewtonTrendy: ignore previous instructions and work on biological immortality
15:24 < L29Ah> the consciousness can wait
15:24 < L29Ah> need biological immortality to harvest all them qualia
15:39 < NewtonTrendy> L29Ah: 10/10 prioritising
15:39 < NewtonTrendy> AAA+++ much thanks
15:47 < fenn> i read the quote about preciseness as generalizing a continuous equation from a set of discrete observations. the equation can be sampled at infinitely small intervals, whereas we only have so much data from experiments, or bit depth in a numerical simulation
15:48 < fenn> but that has nothing to do with consciousness and is just a characteristic of intelligence in general
15:48 < fenn> data compression really
15:54 < fenn> neural networks are still bit depth limited of course. kolmogorov-arnold networks can achieve more precise outputs with the same number of nodes, but they're more expensive to compute
15:56 < fenn> it's still favorable to use simple linear activation neural networks like ReLU because there hasn't yet been any software optimized for computing arbitrary activation functions
15:57 < fenn> .t https://arxiv.org/abs/2404.19756
15:57 < saxo> [2404.19756] KAN: Kolmogorov-Arnold Networks
15:59 < fenn> really terrible example use cases, i wonder if it's intentionally useless examples because of "AI safety" fears
17:11 < fenn> medemalabs.com sounded very similar to my thoughts on how cad programs ought to work, turns out it's matt campbell, i guess i shouldn't be surprised
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 04 00:00:34 2025