--- Log opened Fri May 23 00:00:51 2025
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05:31 < fleeky> nmz787: indee
05:31 < fleeky> nmz787: for our basement i might try using aircrete to insulate 
05:32 < fleeky> a lot of mice get in there so would definitely stop that finally
05:34 < fleeky> and would get in the cracks .. that said aircrete is pretty particular so you have to get the recipe right and we also have to use the water from our water softener because our hard water causes the concrete in the aircrete to activate too fast which then causes bubbling in the aircrete which destroys the foam 
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05:59 < fleeky> john carmack's notes re: keen technologies ai research : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-Fqc6R6FdngRlxe9gi49PRvU97R83O7ZTN_KFXo_jf0/preview?tab=t.0#heading=h.628l6khl68xe
06:03 < fenn> less shitty version of same (the original didn't have pictures either) http://fennetic.net/mirrors/john_carmack_AI_talk_UpperBound25.html
06:04 < fenn> https://justfuckingusehtml.com/
06:12 < fleeky> figured the notes were more interesting than the slide deck
06:13 < fleeky> fenn: sorry why the link to a silly website ranting about html? 
06:14 < fleeky> personally prefer markdown over html at this point
06:15 < kanzure> google docs is not html nor markdown
06:17 < fleeky> sure , i didn't make that google doc, john carmack did
06:17 < fleeky> if i made a document it would be in markdown or static html ,,, 
06:18 < kanzure> if you didn't have that preference then you might have found justfuckingusehtml.com insightful
06:19 < kanzure> i wonder what the OCLC contracts with each library actually look like. is it an indefinite contract of copyright assignment (or some other permanent licensing) from the library to OCLC?
06:19 < fleeky> the worst that i personally do is use cblgh's monotome for my online notes ,, but then i also use cblgh's plain to render static html from markdown as well
06:20 < fleeky> monotome uses a little bit of js to render the markdown to html ,, terrible i know 
06:20 < kanzure> hmmmm "Libraries usually grant OCLC a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free license to use and share the metadata"
06:24 < kanzure> https://icolc.net/system/files/ICOLC%20Statement%20on%20the%20Metadata%20Rights%20of%20Libraries_0.pdf
06:35 < kanzure> page 10 ("page 4") section 7.3 license grant indicates it is indeed non-exclusive from library->OCLC https://www.procurement.vt.edu/content/dam/procurement_vt_edu/contracts/documents/TS-039-12.pdf
06:50 < hprmbridge> Eli>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1375471026871205908/js_framework.png?ex=6831ceb7&is=68307d37&hm=6d2532e96506d66c3fcf0618a95754402936fe6b4338a37e1135b2afbad2bda0&
07:30 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Does react or whatever other frameworks that are hot today, make GUI unit and integration testing possible? ( Or possible for morals)?
07:31 < L29Ah> browser is immoral
07:31 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I've been making GUIs for a decade professionally, on and off, and it is such a shitty feeling to have 0 tests for the visual and integration side
07:31 < hprmbridge> kanzure> yes
07:31 < hprmbridge> kanzure> there are extensive testing frameworks
07:32 < hprmbridge> kanzure> look at jest react examples (server side DOM testing of react frontends), playwright (headless testing), storybook (frontend testing on steroids)
07:33 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I thought playwright was just a alternative ti selenium, for scraping
07:33 < hprmbridge> kanzure> depending on how insane you prefer to be, some shops even run pixel perfect UI testing, visual diffs between versions, e2e frontend integration tests, etc
07:33 < hprmbridge> kanzure> playwright is a headless browser with various capabilities, like selenium, but also a typical js environment for control and DOM modification, sampling, testing etc....
07:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> also has chrome remote debugger protocol integration to drive another browser or receive from another browser etc
07:34 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Hmm, mostly I use wxpython
07:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> wxpython frontend tests are also possible
07:34 < hprmbridge> kanzure> LLMs are very good at generating tests
07:34 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Yeah but not apparently convenient
07:35 < hprmbridge> kanzure> like it's slow?
07:35 < hprmbridge> nmz787> The last I heard was something something MVVM
07:35 < hprmbridge> nmz787> It just wasn't as easy I guess to make sure shit worked, like a normal unit test of a function
07:37 < kanzure> https://gist.github.com/kanzure/f046196caffb7b2c5c8c77ac4dce28ea
07:38 < kanzure> now this one seems to be wx-framework-specific instead of e2e desktop testing
07:38 < kanzure> possbly you might want something like http://www.sikulix.com/ for your tests
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08:43 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Your example is clean, but maybe too simple in terms of reality
08:43 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Like `pos = frame.button.ClientToScreen((10, 10)` how the heck do I know what's at position 10,10... Without opening the app and inspecting pixels
08:45 < hprmbridge> nmz787> And calling random widget.SetValue  might not always work (maybe it needs to be ChangeValue, etc... not uncommon with oddball hybrid widgets like a textbox with drop-down list or tree in it)...
08:45 < kanzure> ok let me look
08:45 < hprmbridge> nmz787> The openCV plus OCR seems more straightforward
08:45 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I'll take a look at that
08:46 < kanzure> pos = frame.button.ClientToScreen((10, 10)) ---> btn_rect = frame.button.GetScreenRect(); center = btn_rect.GetTopLeft() + (btn_rect.GetSize() // 2); pos = center
08:46 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Also like when you have a huge GUI with lots of tabs, subpanels, popup dialogs... Traversing hierarchy can get ugly ... And then break when you refactor the code (with no intention to change the look and feel to the user)
08:48 < kanzure> sikulix is probably the long-term more fun and stable solution, but i have another idea actually, one sec
08:50 < kanzure> nmz787_: check out this crazy idea https://gist.github.com/kanzure/f046196caffb7b2c5c8c77ac4dce28ea#file-wxrecorder-py (wxrecorder.py)
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12:11 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Yeah i thought about something like that... You'd still need to manually tweak the generated test though, since the recording wouldn't be able to log something like visual state change
12:11 < kanzure> well, you could do a screenshot of the window before and after (expected screenshot before and after, actual screenshot before and after)
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14:23 < RangerMauve> BTW if anyone is in Berlin this coming week HMU if you wanna grab a bite and chat transhumanism
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18:53 < fleeky> RangerMauve: you going to go see c-base ? 
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--- Log closed Sat May 24 00:00:52 2025