--- Log opened Sat Jun 07 00:00:05 2025
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06:39 < hprmbridge> norkatron> https://www.enhanced.com/
06:39 < hprmbridge> norkatron> damn tech bros taking all the fun ideas
06:47 < L29Ah> good, they did most of the annoying stuff for you, you can now just invest and watch instead of sweating over it
06:48 < hprmbridge> norkatron> silver lining
06:52 < hprmbridge> norkatron> anyone heard about Travagramab and Gerrettmab ?
06:54 < hprmbridge> norkatron> supposedly regeneron did a study with using these plus semaglutide and achieved both fat loss and muscle growth that matched extremely high steroid use apparently
06:54 < hprmbridge> norkatron> but without the steroid side effects that is
06:57 < TMA> semaglutide has pretty severe side effects by itself I have heard
06:59 < TMA> it sounded like: you are no longer fat, but the bad effects of being fat don't go away, they become worse (cardiovascular health and such)
07:00 < L29Ah> norkatron: do bones become stronger too like with anabolics?
07:00 < TMA> It might have been some anti-big-pharma propaganda
07:00 < TMA> I have not researched it further not being currently obese
07:03  * L29Ah wonders if he should get a blood-flow-restricting cuff off aliexpress for strength training
07:53 < hprmbridge> norkatron> TMA : yes you are correct about semaglutide , which makes sense since it's basically just a drug that curbs your appetite
07:58 < hprmbridge> norkatron> https://www.pharmexec.com/view/regeneron-semaglutide-trevogrumab-demonstrates-superior-fat-loss-reduced-muscle-wasting-obesity-trial
07:58 < hprmbridge> norkatron> another article
07:58 < hprmbridge> norkatron> so the idea is to use all three to avoid the side effects introduced by semaglutide for one
07:59 < hprmbridge> norkatron> i think the biggest most immediate side effect will be to people's wallets , i imagine when these drugs come out they will be stupidly expensive
07:59 < hprmbridge> norkatron> https://newsroom.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/interim-results-ongoing-phase-2-courage-trial-confirm-potential
08:27 < L29Ah> According to food addicts, psychotherapy is the most effective treatment for food addictions (44%), followed by dietary changes (22%).
08:27 < hprmbridge> kanzure> psychotherapy has a very high failure rate
08:27 < hprmbridge> kanzure> and in fact often creates worse outcomes
08:44 < superkuh> "addictions" is not the correct word to use here.
08:44 < superkuh> (I realize you were quoting)
09:22 < L29Ah> superkuh: why not?
09:30 < superkuh> No behavioral addictions are addictions. The terminology is stolen and used for political/profit purposes generally. The stimuli involved are not directly influencing incentive salience out of band.
09:31 < superkuh> The behavior is continued because the stimuli are intrinsically rewarding. There is no divorcing of wanting from enjoyment like in addictive chemicals.
09:32 < superkuh> And before "delta-fosb expression in the accumbens" comes in, early gene expression happens for *all* stimuli. It's like saying "Oh, eating causes glutamate release." true, but also meaningless.
09:33 < hprmbridge> kanzure> are behaviorial addictions merely etymologically distinct, or are they also not (for example) real (eg solely self feoort
09:34 < superkuh> I think these people have real psychological problems in the sense of a disorder. But it is not an addictive disorder.
09:37 < superkuh> The use of the word 'addiction' in these non-addictive contexts is itself dangerous and damaging. It brings in the premise the people lack volition. Even if that is technically true, we cannot operate a society based on that premise.
09:38 < superkuh> Lack of volition brings in the use of force.
09:38 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Well, regardless, there is no way to actually measure volition or its absence unfortunately
09:38 < superkuh> Nation states suddenly thinking they can justify the use of violence just because someone, say, enjoys a fatty meal.
09:50 < jrayhawk> superkuh: https://gnusha.org/~jrayhawk/the_metabolic_syndrome/10.1111-jfbc.12629-role_of_food-derived_opioid_peptides_in_the_central_nervous_and_gastrointestinal_systems.pdf
09:52 < superkuh> https://i.imgur.com/n0967lf.png - milk: rebranded
09:52 < superkuh> I was just reading http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Biology/Bioactive%20Components%20in%20Milk%20and%20Dairy%20Products_%20Young%20W%20Park.pdf last night.
09:55 < superkuh> I have doubts re: any peptides crossing the blood brain barrier in a normal healthy animal.
09:56 < superkuh> nociceptive models like 10.1111-jfbc.12629 talks about seem like they could be peripherally mediated.
09:58 < jrayhawk> The same proline-rich proteins for which we lack the prolase to proteolyze that bind to opioid receptors also have a bunch of other random binding affinities, among which are occludin- and claudin-opening chemokine receptors. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21248165/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34223877/ https://vimeo.com/152402052
09:58 < jrayhawk> The same mechanisms apply to both epithelial membranes and endothelial membranes.
10:00 < superkuh> Intestinal motility is probably not a great model for BBB motility even if they're both surface cell tissue types.
10:01 < superkuh> I have no papers to cite but wouldn't the BBB be a lot "tighter" than the intestines? That's my perception.
10:01 < jrayhawk> https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=chemokine+blood-brain+barrier+permeability the same mechanisms are in play
10:01 < superkuh> Thanks!
10:02 < jrayhawk> but yes, typically with the intestines there's an attempt to "flush out" using lymphatic fluid as well as giving immune cells access
10:02 < L29Ah> so, does noopept work?
10:03 < jrayhawk> but leukocytes and such as still quite large in comparison to casein and gliadin
10:03 < jrayhawk> or peptides thereof
10:10 < jrayhawk> from my only vague comprehension of casein-sensitive communities talking about stuff like migraines and MCAS, casein is sometimes super weird in that the neuroinflammation can occur on a 72 hour delay from exposure and be limited to once a week
10:13 < jrayhawk> which i can only round off to adaptive-immune-system-plus-question-marks, but if you run into specific mechanisms for why that might be in your research, i would be curious to hear about it
10:23 < jrayhawk> And obviously there's more straightforwad addictions, like chocolate having the TAAR1 agonist phenylethylamine, and caffeine precursor
10:25 < jrayhawk> with subtle behavioral stuff like being consumed outside of meals to minimize gastric response
10:27 < jrayhawk> and being reliably combined remarkably often with casein, gliadin, and peanut agglutenin
10:32 < jrayhawk> er, s/agonist/target/
10:42 < hprmbridge> Katylase> hi friends! how are you?
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11:51 < hprmbridge> norkatron> https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioral-and-brain-sciences/announcements/call-for-papers/call-for-commentary-proposals-conscious-artificial-intelligence-and-biological-naturalism
11:51 < hprmbridge> norkatron> https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/C9912A5BE9D806012E3C8B3AF612E39A/S0140525X25000032a.pdf/conscious-artificial-intelligence-and-biological-naturalism.pdf
11:51 < hprmbridge> norkatron> the actual paper
11:51 < hprmbridge> norkatron> curious what people here think
11:51 < hprmbridge> norkatron> the neuroscientist claims there is definitely substrate dependence for consciousness
12:03 < hprmbridge> kanzure> lame, they can't even figure out human consciousness why would I possibly be interested in artificial consciousness. It's just more land grab of nonsense.
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12:11 < jrayhawk> That's not fair. AI "introspection" consisting wholly of lying to create false legibility have been useful in establishing that even that component of "consciousness" is a political game
12:13 < hprmbridge> kanzure> hm
12:17 < hprmbridge> Katylase> can I show you something?
12:23 < jrayhawk> There's the more fundamental conceptual gerrymandering around nonlinearities (tool usage, self-attention, counterfactual reasoning, etc.) in the capacity to inductively predict distributions of expected value over the distribution of possible actions that people also use for political purposes.
12:23 < jrayhawk> arguing about whether or not whales deserve political rights
12:26 < jrayhawk> when the more taxonometrically honest thing is to admit it's a continuous function, but that adds complication as a developmentally disabled adult can then become "less conscious" than, say, a wolf.
12:28 < jrayhawk> consciousness is like deontology: it is a polite simplified black-and-white taxonomic tool for people who are bad at reasoning.
12:33 < jrayhawk> researching "the origin of consciousness" is roughly as epistemically sound as researching "the origin of natural law".
12:36 < hprmbridge> kanzure> natural law as in the physical sciences ?
12:37 < jrayhawk> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law
12:37 < hprmbridge> kanzure> oof
12:42 < jrayhawk> or maybe "the origin of Asianess as geographically distinct from Europeness""
12:44 < jrayhawk> map/territory reification fallacy stuff
12:50 < jrayhawk> "We're going to both create random permutations of landscapes and simulate random systems of geology to find out what Asianess is and how Asianess emerges."
13:11 < hprmbridge> norkatron> sounds like no one here really has a real definition of consciousness either ?
13:11 < hprmbridge> kanzure> it's a waste of time
13:11 < hprmbridge> norkatron> so no 🙂
13:11 < hprmbridge> kanzure> just build cool things anyway who cares if the human isn't conscious
13:12 < hprmbridge> norkatron> building consciousness would be cool ?
13:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> no p-zombies allowed in your ethnostate?
13:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> no I think p-zombies would be way more fantastic
13:12 < hprmbridge> norkatron> honestly think p-zombies is about as silly as nihilism
13:12 < hprmbridge> norkatron> a way for smart people to talk themselves into stupid conclusions
13:13 < hprmbridge> norkatron> also has pattern matching to techbros who call others sheeple
13:13 < hprmbridge> kanzure> I think you're underestimating the benefits here.
13:13 < hprmbridge> kanzure> the explanatory benefits of not having consciousness are actually really high
13:13 < hprmbridge> norkatron> i guess i just think things are typically more than i realize
13:14 < hprmbridge> kanzure> what if it's still more than you realize anyway? is there insufficient richness in a mechanical world?
13:14 < hprmbridge> norkatron> mechanical worlds do not fully describe the world around us
13:14 < hprmbridge> kanzure> how do you know?
13:14 < hprmbridge> norkatron> please prove me wrong
13:14 < hprmbridge> kanzure> huh?
13:14 < hprmbridge> kanzure> are you epistemologically retarded
13:15 < hprmbridge> norkatron> probably
13:15 < hprmbridge> norkatron> i was inquiring about your insight into it ?
13:15 < hprmbridge> Katylase> i made a revised version of the Cas9 anim^^
13:15 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Please restate your demand or question in the form of a demand or question.
13:16 < hprmbridge> norkatron> sorry if i am not framing things correctly , i should probably think about that and get back to you
13:16 < hprmbridge> kanzure> all good
13:17 < hprmbridge> nmz787> This feels similar to someone in another chat arguing the definition of eugenics is bogus and that eugenics is bad regardless of the dictionary definition
13:17 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I don't even know how to argue against them... It feels so self evident to me already
13:17 < hprmbridge> norkatron> hmm
13:17 < hprmbridge> norkatron> ok well i guess i will just lurk
13:18 < jrayhawk> i need a "p-zombie pride" shirt
13:18 < hprmbridge> Katylase>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1381004414017474570/IMG_3248.gif?ex=6845f016&is=68449e96&hm=073820a0fb5a0d4323924a1ed08ef8ccc1c776957431aa0c92c37e240f0f221a&
13:18 < hprmbridge> norkatron> i would love to know about each of your points of view more deeply but it seems like i am not communicating that very well ..
13:19 < hprmbridge> norkatron> when i object to something i am merely trying to engage , i honestly am not sure of almost anything , i also have some ideas that seem self evident to me , but at the same time i question them a lot
13:19 < hprmbridge> nmz787> These don't seem helpful or have any utility, but cartoons are fun sometimes during story time
13:19 < hprmbridge> norkatron> anyways this is typical for me , i am a terrible communicator
13:21 < hprmbridge> Katylase> wdym?
13:22 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Your images are cute but not scientific or representative of the molecular dynamics
13:23 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I guess they're cute for like a toddler's book on enzymatics, but honestly I wouldn't be fighting people at the bookstore for a copy
13:23 < hprmbridge> nmz787> I'd be much more interested in the catalytic domains being intuitively highlighted
13:23 < hprmbridge> nmz787> And their interactions be more true to form
13:25 < hprmbridge> Katylase> i actually have two art styles, one is this cute one, and the other is a classic textbook one...
13:25 < hprmbridge> norkatron> @Katylase how did you make it ? possible to have the scarf loop correctly ?
13:25 < hprmbridge> Katylase>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1381006258907119708/IMG_3224.jpg?ex=6845f1cd&is=6844a04d&hm=6c6960ed70a865c877e5fdcf2772a91beca4256fc2ac562c1efa490fd7027dbd&
13:28 < hprmbridge> Katylase> I used a program called toon squid! also I have a drawing with Cas9 having loop on his scarf
13:28 < hprmbridge> norkatron> ahk
13:30 < hprmbridge> Katylase>  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1381007319223107624/IMG_3240.jpg?ex=6845f2ca&is=6844a14a&hm=699b853c688e4a98deae43ade450a031e13f0da843b11032f831bb43d7105616&
13:31 < hprmbridge> Katylase> I did this in school during a bio lesson XD
13:33 < hprmbridge> norkatron> this one is cute
13:34 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_eugenics
13:34 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Didn't know this existed, since 2005....
13:46 < hprmbridge> kanzure> @Katylase https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1381011510943547514/file_000000005b2861f5bedcaeeeb60bce94.png?ex=6845f6b2&is=6844a532&hm=a4c29e32afdb7ff97c549cebf9145068f82e1c1ad409afbf2ea0404fc09785a4&
13:47 < hprmbridge> nmz787> Reminds me of the aliens from aqua teen hunger force
13:47 < hprmbridge> nmz787> https://tenor.com/view/athf-plutonians-oglethorpe-emory-aqua-teen-hunger-force-gif-3792006271296181458
13:48 < hprmbridge> kanzure> we can't let there be a DNA gap, mr. president https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1381011845414129664/file_00000000eeb8622fa2596a31e50f51c2.png?ex=6845f701&is=6844a581&hm=4cf8ddb753dc4c692ff2b31eb9465a1f38d54b5a796d8485dd59dc97d5ff53e1&
13:49 < hprmbridge> Katylase> @kanzure seems you're having fun^^
13:51 < hprmbridge> Katylase> here, have a lil family pic^^ https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1381012790281764914/IMG_3242.jpg?ex=6845f7e3&is=6844a663&hm=77c645ef50b5cfe7507b8229a9d33b170e32f00a54d26af013f7abe1a34ad150&
13:53 < hprmbridge> kanzure> is that doudna the denialist
13:55 < hprmbridge> kanzure> @Katylase https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064664282450628710/1381013717134737528/file_0000000079b861fbaf0297458a3620e6.png?ex=6845f8c0&is=6844a740&hm=388a2a6e9463a942d39cd6c434c7932925e5ef0c09777f0f67ca37bf19e8ee1c&
13:56 < hprmbridge> Katylase> yea! that Jenny (who else, right?)
14:58 < hprmbridge> Eli> The KJ Muldoon story is pretty impressive. He basically received the most personalized medical treatment in human history. They estimated the cost was maybe $800,000, but if you got that down enough, you could potentially solve a lot of rare metabolic diseases. The lipid nanoparticles preferentially accumulate in the liver, so metabolic diseases are a great first target. Combined with base
14:58 < hprmbridge> Eli> editing, you might have a pretty good tool to eliminate a lot of orphan diseases that big pharma would normally never be interested in. Theoretically, the treatment seems like it should avoid the somatic gene editing issues we had in the past. Only time will tell if KJ maintains progress.
15:01 < L29Ah> > norkatron> sounds like no one here really has a real definition of consciousness either ?
15:01 < L29Ah> welcome to constructive empiricism
15:04 < L29Ah> on a more practical note, Yudkowsky wrote a good article on why and how you shouldn't use contested words: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/WBdvyyHLdxZSAMmoz/taboo-your-words (a part of https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/FaJaCgqBKphrDzDSj/37-ways-that-words-can-be-wrong)
15:30 < hprmbridge> norkatron> thanks i will read those
15:31 < hprmbridge> norkatron> in general it seems my language clashes quite a bit so i should probably lurk for a while more ,
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15:36 < hprmbridge> nmz787> The taboo your words didn't leave me with anything apparently useful. It seems like endless recursion where you end up a speechless oaf
15:44 < L29Ah> it happens when you or your partner don't want to discuss the substance of your argument
15:45 < L29Ah> arguing about labels is a quaint pastime for some people
15:49 < hprmbridge> kanzure> @norkatron what brings you here btw
15:53 < hprmbridge> norkatron> very much interested in the subject matter and always love talking with intelligent people
15:53 < hprmbridge> norkatron> currently seeking out a few specific problem domains
15:53 < hprmbridge> norkatron> but i love to see all the interesting bioscience stuff that is posted
15:53 < hprmbridge> kanzure> alrighty, but how did you become to get here?
15:55 < hprmbridge> norkatron> was recommended by a friend
15:59 < hprmbridge> norkatron> _switches to lurk mode_
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17:30 < jrayhawk> https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yA4gF5KrboK2m2Xu7/how-an-algorithm-feels-from-inside may also be foundational
17:41 < NewtonTrendy> any tips https://fellowship.monster/study.pdf
17:44 < NewtonTrendy> I want to do too much and include the scale between inadequacy to supremacy (not sure if that IS sdo) and also highlight that it needs to be balanced for people to get along without a task or shared context, that might be 2 more papers thoguh.
17:45 < NewtonTrendy> the thing that needs to be blanced is the supremacy inadequacy scale of resepct expectation, between people interacting.
17:45 < NewtonTrendy> otherwise it will cause a viscious cycle without a task
17:46 < NewtonTrendy> plan to cite this, that is should be balanced https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jopy.12857
17:46 < NewtonTrendy> *that it should
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19:52 < L29Ah> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GsqnagJXYAALFOt.jpg
20:11 < hprmbridge> Eli> natural selection via selection of embryos is interesting in the sense that it seems like we don't have to select for embryos with deleterious SNPs. The problem is with the polygenic stuff. I feel like there's a lot of complexity. Saying you'll not choose an embryo with homozygous apoe4 is one thing. But, predicting IQ almost feels like the FDA would come down on you. Maybe it's not a structure
20:11 < hprmbridge> Eli> function claim and that's why they can legally predict stuff that's polygenic? Knowing how conservative the medical community is, I can already imagine what kind of pushback they will get.
22:07 < NewtonTrendy> L29Ah: did you want research papers on the soul, look at what AI can do now: https://fellowship.monster/soul-theory-paper.pdf
22:07 < NewtonTrendy> it actually took me 5 hours, and was based on my own prior research and work, but still
22:09 < NewtonTrendy> where do i find out if these papers could be published, where should i put them?
--- Log closed Sun Jun 08 00:00:06 2025