--- Log opened Sun Jun 08 00:00:06 2025
01:15 < TMA> NewtonTrendy: what are you trying to accomplish with publishing those papers?
01:16 < NewtonTrendy> I kind of want people to realise that we are all our of reflection of infinite possibility, and that is god, so we can all get along
01:16 < NewtonTrendy> *our own reflection
01:17 < NewtonTrendy> I guess pain can be a reason to fight existance
01:17 < NewtonTrendy> its not the same as atheism
01:17 < NewtonTrendy> we can have potential for infinity without desire, but along the way, i think we can fix it
01:18 < NewtonTrendy> So tomorrow i might do a theory of god, if i remember
01:19 < NewtonTrendy> I guess i'd just like some credible things to come up when people google my business
01:20 < NewtonTrendy> credible/notable (as long as not directly unanimously bad)
01:20 < fenn> please do not use the channel as a link farm for explicitly off-topic self promotional material
01:21 < NewtonTrendy> i think ive been a little bit confused, this room is just about biohacking sort of stuff, and not science in general?
01:22 < fenn> this room is about the sort of topics one would find in extropy magazine, and ways to get there on a practical level (tools, skills, real world resources)
01:23 < NewtonTrendy> got it, ok
01:28 < NewtonTrendy> with regard to how to get to infinite lifespans, do you think that its more we arent organisaed to cope with mass adoption?
01:30 < NewtonTrendy> vitadao also have massive grants for life extension if you havent seen them
01:31 < fenn> i'd say the main problem is the overwhelming apathy and deathist culture that permeates all society, partially as a result of postmodernist ideological warfare, and partially from religious backward thinking, literally backward as in they think everything was better in the past by definition
01:32 < fenn> there are very few people actually working on the problem. this has gotten a little better in the last few years
01:34 < fenn> the technical barrier is a lack of theory. i think the only way to make progress on that is to get more people thinking about what aging actually is
01:34 < fenn> those people don't have to be made out of meat
01:35 < NewtonTrendy> apathy or inability to believe it could possibly be them? What about Spiteful obstructionism from those close to death? The notion of "the soul" that i just pasted, actually might provide a framework of comfort to deal with the sour grapes mindset.
01:36 < fenn> i've never heard anyone vocalize spiteful obstructionism due to timing of their own death
01:36 < NewtonTrendy> is that a bad thing?
01:36 < fenn> no
01:36 < NewtonTrendy> many feel guilty
01:37 < fenn> about what, hypothetically not dying?
01:37 < fenn> about living?
01:38 < fenn> see my earlier comment about postmodernist ideological warfare
01:38 < fenn> there's a reason there are so many anti-aging scientists from russia
01:38 < fenn> they don't shit in their own food supply, so to speak
01:38 < NewtonTrendy> what if you are due die before it happens? The closer it gets, the less there is, exponentially. Its been many generations of people who are just doing it for the hope of heaven. lets not forget
01:39 < NewtonTrendy> i have noted your comment about ideological warfare
01:42 < fenn> this is the origin of my knowledge of the topic http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=260
01:43 < fenn> these meme-weapons are still circulating
01:45 < TMA> I understand that people might want to live a better life. I dont understand the infinite life wish though. Infinite life means infinite total amount of suffering. People remember suffering more. That alone means deteriorating life quality over time, even disregarding other causes like aging-related health decline.
01:45 < fenn> part of the postmodernist meme package is the idea that everything will continue to suck, forever, and there's no hope for the future
01:45 < fenn> TMA: actually, people remember suffering less
01:46 < TMA> fenn: ok, I am weird then. never mind me
01:47 < fenn> all right what are we to make of these conflicting claims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosy_retrospection
01:48 < fenn> maybe it is about the length of the delay before recall
01:48 < fenn> i try to never use infinity in my calculations
01:49 < fenn> it often leads to absurd results
01:56 < TMA> I have few recallable memories from school up to age of about 11.5. All of them are negative or have negative components. I probably have inaccessible memories (accessible by association to something else than me willing to recall "memories from school")
01:57 < TMA> so I am deficient in the Rosy retrospection department
01:57 < TMA> and I have made the mistake to generalize that
01:59 < fenn> piracetam and choline helped me recall a bunch of random stuff, fwiw
02:00 < fenn> which i then promptly forgot again
02:00 < NewtonTrendy> I have too many competeing concepts to output. first 1) The nature of "big hacks" you can subscribe to in infulence. Scams you become aware of and no longer work on you. 2) mental health's roots in hearing other people praying to god, ie hearing the voices, and its transition into consistiently more deniable systems. Starting with Radio Hearing Effect in the 50s (arguable existed in the head
02:00 < NewtonTrendy> of the person who invented radio from stories i read) 3) the nature of taking things to the root problem and cause as mechanism to undo them https://circuspam.coffee/2023/09/19/tracing-the-first-lie-with-quantum-computing-a-journey-towards-absolute-truth/ (tl;dr a single celled organism worked out how to decieve parasitically or something) 4) there is only truth and the contrast is simply
02:00 < NewtonTrendy> varing needs on the path of natural development, the reasons for everything exist in the managers and should be in possession of all through wiki supply chains, and optimised adequitely. 5) if you do the most for those close to you and everyone does that for everyone, based on what they can afford without losing track of their goals, a shade of positivty rather than purely what you can
02:00 < NewtonTrendy> extract. its much less effort wasted on undoing things. (but you know this last one.)
02:09 < fenn> TMA: atheists can be saved by fixing the meat
02:09 < fenn> most people don't seem to have come to terms with understanding that we're actually made out of meat
02:11 < fenn> we can literally just delete those suffering memories if it fixes you
02:11 < fenn> it's better than dying...
02:12 < TMA> is it really?
02:12 < fenn> absolutely
02:12 < fenn> there are all kinds of good things in you
02:13 < NewtonTrendy> can you forget love and commitment? It's not pain yet, and it might just dissapear anyway, or become moral objective for society.
02:13 < NewtonTrendy> but people are forged on the strength of their first monogomous love
02:13 < NewtonTrendy> often
02:15 < TMA> fenn: Why yes, of course there are good things. They serve the "purpose" of making me feel their absence as an injury. ["purpose" does not exists, it is just a figure of speech here. The effect is as described though.]
02:16 < fenn> TMA: i mean in the kantian sense, you are a good thing intrinsically. also in the economic sense, you have useful abilities to contribute to society. also it would be a waste to have invested so much and then lose the investment
02:16 < fenn> even if we delete "bad" memories, those still exist
02:18 < fenn> i'm generally opposed to deleting things, this is an option of last resort
02:19 < TMA> fenn: I will continue on living, I won't seek immortality though. I will continue living out of spite, I will not remove myself. I will continue to be a nuissance and an obstacle to other people.
02:19 < fenn> there are other ways to fix the meat but harder to explain
02:19 < fenn> we can generate new neural pathways that overpower the old ones most of the time
02:20 < fenn> we can bias existing pathways with chemicals to achieve the same effect
02:21 < NewtonTrendy> if you talk about a business, you are doing part of its work
02:22 < TMA> I cannot bend the reality around me sufficiently to create the environment for such neural pathway creation. I know it is possible in theory, I am just not apt enough to translate the theory into action.
02:23 < fenn> understandable
02:23 < NewtonTrendy> smart, and dependent on a requirement, the key is positivity
02:24 < NewtonTrendy> or proactivity
02:25 < TMA> This quote of Marwin from the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy sums it up nicely:
02:25 < TMA> "Oh, fine," said Marvin, "if you happen to like being me, which personally I don't."
02:25 < fenn> lion's mane mushroom extract
02:25 < fenn> it contains a polysaccharide that acts as neural growth factor
02:26 < fenn> you'll want to co-supplement with other neural nutrients like fish oil and i guess phosphatidyl choline (it's kinda expensive tho)
02:27 < fenn> it can cause extreme fatigue if you're deficient
02:27 < fenn> while i'm recommending things i'll also plug magnesium threonate and magnesium glycinate
02:28 < fenn> and lay off the wheat
02:28 < TMA> I have experimented and I have come to conclusion that I need cooperation of other people around me to create a better environment. I am not skilled enough in coercing them into cooperation.
02:29 < TMA> fenn: I'll look into your recommendation for availability
02:29 < fenn> as part of becoming a new person you may find you understand modes of thought you formerly experienced as abhorrent
02:30 < fenn> uh i mean new neural pathways, which i think is equivalent to becoming a new person
02:30 < TMA> yes, *I* am basically my brain anyway
02:30 < fenn> i identify with my brain
02:31 < fenn> it's confusing tho
02:32 < TMA> but please don't tell the common people, they'll hate you for admitting to it. They'll argue: "something something heart something soul something..."
02:32 < fenn> the paradigms are not mutually exclusive
02:33 < NewtonTrendy> with ai, the negativity has been because of people who were not informed being left out, from what ive seen
02:33 < NewtonTrendy> not everyone can be first
02:34 < NewtonTrendy> global sensation is the best resource
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02:35 < fenn> they chose to be "left out" by making bad choices of how to spend their attention
02:36 < NewtonTrendy> either way, they are now negative.
02:36 < fenn> they chose to be negative
02:36 < fenn> or, the meme chose, i'm not really sure
02:36 < NewtonTrendy> im trying to parralel this with future life extension and with insider life extension knowledge
02:37 < fenn> there are some things i'd like to say about this but i must self censor for other peoples' sake
02:38 < NewtonTrendy> the communities who are exculsive and also not able to cope with accepting all, are actually a barrier in my opinion
02:38 < NewtonTrendy> i hope thats the gist of it
02:38 < NewtonTrendy> feel free to pm
02:38 < fenn> yes that's the gist of it
02:38 < fenn> our decision making organs have been corrupted
02:39 < fenn> as a society
02:40 < NewtonTrendy> i wish i could talk about psychology, there are relevant concepts in instinctive learning in the amigdala FROM the prefrontal, a different system of action and knowing
02:41 < NewtonTrendy> ok sorry, couldnt help myself, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-09001-2
02:41 < fenn> just don't go all woke on me with your "lived experience" and "lizard ways of knowing"
02:43 < NewtonTrendy> pretty much instant learning though
02:43 < fenn> "linking sensory stimuli in the environment with aversive events, whether they were directly or indirectly associated with that experience" is the kind of stuff we're supposed to be shunning though, according to progressives
02:44 < fenn> i mean it's all statistics one way or another, but sparse neural networks allow for more orthogonality and precise causal attribution
02:44 < fenn> cortical neurons are objectively better, i said it
02:45 < fenn> if you have to make snap judgements you're doing something wrong
02:46 < fenn> it's like, if you have to put someone in prison, or drop a bomb on a city, something has gone seriously wrong with the process long ahead of that
02:48 < fenn> so be prepared to make snap decisions, but don't plan on it. use your planning skills to have time to make good decisions
02:49 < fenn> postmodernism hacks this very dense association network in the amygdala, probably
02:50 < NewtonTrendy> what is realisation?
02:50 < NewtonTrendy> i do listen to myself think, but i can feel if its wrong, probably not directly on topic though, i need to get to sleep
02:52 < NewtonTrendy> nn
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03:41 < hprmbridge> kanzure> @Eli I previously worked at an embryo selection company that was doing IQ, more than 5 years ago
03:44 < hprmbridge> kanzure> just ban newton
03:44 < hprmbridge> kanzure> get it over with
03:52 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://techcrunch.com/2025/06/01/early-ai-investor-elad-gil-finds-his-next-big-bet-ai-powered-rollups/
04:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure> haha "ADD AI driven development"
04:14 < fenn> i have to agree
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04:15 <@fenn> no
04:15 <@fenn> god i suck at opping
04:16 < hprmbridge> kanzure> only reason to not ban would be, like maybe he's just 15 and misguided
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04:17 <@fenn> he's twenty something and misguided and has mental issues that are not resolvable
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06:32 < hprmbridge> Eli> Interesting. I have so many questions 😁. Im assuming they were also searching for SNPs? Seems like the market size for only IQ selection would be significantly smaller than the market for those who want to avert pain. What was your takeaway on polygenic scoring?
06:49 < hprmbridge> kanzure> everyone is too focused on polygenic traits
06:50 < hprmbridge> kanzure> it doesn't truly matter if a trait is polygenic in origin... often you only need a few genetic contributions or even a single overexpression genetic circuit to get outsized effects.
06:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> but if you are limited to the selection regime, then yeah you have to temporarily care about polygenic contributors
06:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> but why would you want to select? you only have like 100 eggs and embryos max anyway.
06:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Selection would make a lot more sense if you had 10,000 embryos or 1 million embryos
06:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> You can get much better outcomes from genetic engineering.
06:52 < hprmbridge> kanzure> 100 embryos is very uncommon btw. Most people going through in vitro fertilization are often somewhat infertile and only have a few eggs or embryos, depending on age or health.
06:55 < hprmbridge> kanzure> Also, with selection, your fundamentally limited by the genetic contributions to IQ from both parents. If both parents are idiots or morons, then you're not going to have significant out of distribution IQ results from selection of a handful of embryos like 10 embryos or whatever...
06:55 < hprmbridge> kanzure> er, you're
07:04 < L29Ah> selection is a lot less objectionable than genetic engineering apparently
07:05 < hprmbridge> kanzure> why would you let other people object to your procreation
07:07 < L29Ah> it is a sort of thing that benefits from economy of scale; i can't afford to figure out and edit my embryos, while a company doing that and advertising will likely get unwanted attention of armed people, and protecting it is beyond my capacity
07:10 < hprmbridge> kanzure> hmm something something protect those who are unable to protect themselves something something that's why the mask chose me?
07:11 < L29Ah> this is out of my memesphere
07:12 < hprmbridge> kanzure> superhero comics are outside your memesphere. noted.
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07:12 < L29Ah> if we aren't going political, we gotta grind up our knowledge and wealth level so that it will be affordable to individuals doing things covertly like 3D printed firearms are now
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07:25 < hprmbridge> Eli> That's a great point. If embryo editing is successful, it is likely considered more moral by society because it can save embryos that would otherwise be discarded. Embryo selection via genetic screening is almost like a form of selective breeding. And would require large n-values over multiple generations to get where a successful embryo edit might get on the first try.
07:35 < hprmbridge> kanzure> 'more moral'.. is just a way of saying appeasing certain religiosity. but they were never interested in technological divinity anyway so why placate them.
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16:25 < fenn> "i want my child to not feel pain, so i'm going to genetically modify them to not have pain receptors" said nobody
16:25 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "I want them to feel maximum pain, so I will add pain receptor overexpression" (actually I don't know if that would work)
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16:32 < fenn> the technology brethren are the only ones pursuing technological divinity
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16:57 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://miko.ai/pages/miko-chess-grand
16:59 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "let it reset itself at the tap of a button" https://youtu.be/xKhfrnadh2o?feature=shared
17:01 < hprmbridge> kanzure> finally we can forego the tremendous waste of effort that is moving our individual chess pieces
17:02 < hprmbridge> kanzure> no more shall we be tormented by the wide chasm between physical chess and electronic chess software
17:03 < hprmbridge> kanzure> oof arm cortex
17:03 < hprmbridge> kanzure> someone was not playing chess with the design specs I guess
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17:56 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "Evolution of multivalent supramolecular assemblies of aptamers with target-defined spatial organization" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41565-025-01939-8
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--- Log closed Mon Jun 09 00:00:07 2025